John Ferris
10 days ago
Letting go of American Evangelical Christianity was one of my best life choices.
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Ready to de-convert?
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Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
I want to provide this before the next comment:
noun
noun: retcon; plural noun: retcons; noun: ret-con; plural noun: ret-cons
(in a film, television series, or other fictional work) a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency.
“we’re given a retcon for Wilf’s absence from Donna’s wedding in ‘The Runaway Bride’: he had Spanish Flu”
verb
verb: retcon; 3rd person present: retcons; past tense: retconned; past participle: retconned; gerund or present participle: retconning; verb: ret-con; 3rd person present: ret-cons; past tense: ret-conned; past participle: ret-conned; gerund or present participle: ret-conning
revise (an aspect of a fictional work) retrospectively, typically by introducing a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events.
“I think fans get more upset when characters act blatantly out of established type, or when things get retconned”
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drlegendre
10 days ago
19:45 – “Once they believed that he’d risen from the dead, they redefined things.”
This, the retcon of all retcons – the most singularly significant post-hoc rationalization in all of Western history.
Edward Miessner
10 days ago
And thus the deception had started. But Mara bar Serapion said he lived on through his teachings so it appears that it means his followers in Jerusalem did not believe he rose from the dead. And that means Paul was the one who started the deception!
“saying that the Parousia already actually took place”
Yes.
“saying… that the prophecies ascribed to Jesus were fulfilled in historical events properly understood”
Yes.
evangelical leaders:
66% premilliennial: Jesus will return to earth & then reign for 1k years
13% amillennial: the non-literal millennial reign of Christ is happening now as Christ reigns at the right hand of the Father
4% postmillennial: Christ’s second coming will occur after the 1k-year period
17%: “other”
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I’m sure there are people who can reconcile any conflicting view given time and imagination.
Traditionally the Parousia is the event at the end of history when God destroys the forces of evil and ushers in his divine kingdom on earth.
There is a point of view usually referred to as Preterism which holds that the eschatological expectations of Jewish apocalypticists were satisfied by the events surrounding the First Jewish Revolt. If the Parousia had actually happened this sort of reinterpretation and rationalization would hardly be necessary.
“the Parousia is the event at the end of history when God destroys the forces of evil and ushers in his divine kingdom on earth”
Do you think any of Daniel’s prophecies haven’t been fulfilled yet?
“Preterism… holds that the eschatological expectations of Jewish apocalypticists were satisfied by the events surrounding the First Jewish Revolt”
Is that view erroneous?
Do you think any of Daniel’s prophecies haven’t been fulfilled yet?
When did God destroy the forces of evil and usher in his divine kingdom on earth?
Is that view erroneous?
As I wrote I think this is a post hoc rationalization for the fact that the Parousia failed to materialize as Jesus and Paul and the early Christians expected.
“When did God destroy the forces of evil and usher in his divine kingdom on earth?”
I assume “the forces of evil” includes the devil.
The devil and his angels won’t be destroyed. Instead, they’ll be converted, and will once again worship God.
Within the last decade, at-least 2 dark angels have returned to following God. Eventually, the devil will as well.
“and usher in his divine kingdom on earth”
Remind me, if you would: what’s the basis for thinking that God would “usher in his divine kingdom on earth”?
John 18:36 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
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Yeshua said to him,
“My Kingdom is not from this world;
if my Kingdom were of this world,
my servants would be fighting that
I would not have been delivered up to the Judeans,
but now my Kingdom is not from here.”
“a post hoc rationalization for the fact that the Parousia failed to materialize as Jesus and Paul and the early Christians expected”
Jesus didn’t fit the mold his students were expecting the Messiah to be.
“failed to materialize as Jesus… expected”
What exactly did Jesus expect?
Within the last decade, at-least 2 dark angels have returned to following God.
And you know about this how?
David do you know about the neutral angels? The ones who didn’t take sides? See Wolfram von Eschenbach’s Parzival .
What exactly did Jesus expect?
The view that Jesus would probably have had as a first century Jewish apocalypticist is of an earthly kingdom established by God. it’s hard to say exactly how he fancied his own role in it, but he may have had Messianic pretensions.
“know about this how?”
From Mike Parsons. If you like, I’ll look for my copy of his
_The Eschatology of the Restoration of All Things: The dawning of the age of enlightenment_
and see if he mentions the matter in print there.
“know about the neutral angels? The ones who didn’t take sides”
This is the 1st I hear there was such a thing.
“view that Jesus would probably have had… he may have had Messianic pretensions”
It sounds like you don’t know what exactly Jesus expected.
All this relies on Parsons’ personal revelation and is authoritative only to the extent one is willing to accept it.
Wolfram Von Eschenbach is considered the greatest of the epic medieval German poets. His chief claim to fame is Parzival, an Arthurian Romance centered on the quest for the Grail. Wolfram was a soldier and knowledgeable of medieval military culture and this informs his work giving it a verisimilitude lacking in previous stories about King Arthur. Remarkably, by his own testimony, Wolfram was illiterate! Wolfram created this amazing body of work and dictated it.
Parzival, as I said, concerns the Grail quest. In Wolfram’s account the Grail is a gemstone rather than a chalice. It was brought to earth originally by what Wolfram describes as “the neutral angels”. These otherwise mysterious heavenly fauna supported neither God nor Satan in the great angelic rebellion. This all has some esoteric significance for Wolfram and there has been much commentary. (It does seem clear that at least some of Wolfram’s sources may not have been altogether orthodox.)
David, it is a purely personal preference of course, but I prefer the public revelations of imaginative literature to self-validating private mysticism. Hard to argue with a great book.
It sounds like you don’t know what exactly Jesus expected.
We don’t have access to Jesus’ personal psychology but I think we can place him in his cultural context as a Jewish apocalypticist. He would have expected the imminent arrival of God’s earthy kingdom. It seems likely he thought he had a privileged position in that kingdom.
“All this relies on Parsons’ personal revelation and is authoritative only to the extent one is willing to accept it”
I myself consider credible the account of Parsons of what he was involved in.
“I prefer the public revelations of imaginative literature to self-validating private mysticism. Hard to argue with a great book”
Maybe there are ‘neutral angels.’
Maybe if I read Wolfram Von Eschenbach’s Parzival I’d believe there are ‘neutral angels.’
“we can place him in his cultural context as a Jewish apocalypticist. He would have expected the imminent arrival of God’s earthy kingdom. It seems likely he thought he had a privileged position in that kingdom”
Do you believe Jesus thought Jesus was the book of Daniel’s ‘son of man’?
“Can you offer any reasons why anyone else might find his private revelations credible?”
No.
Do you agree with this?:
Philippians 2 (NIV)
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9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert