Robert
1 Thess 2,14-16 need not be referring to the destruction of the temple in 70 CE is one of the reasons that we need not consider it a later interpolation.
Steefen
What wrath is Paul referring to, then?
With 1 Thessalonians being written by the end of AD 52 and possibly as early as AD 48, “the Jews killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets” … Jesus was killed in say, 30, it is 18-22 years later and the wrath of God has not happened yet? Robert, what wrath is Paul referring to?
Robert
You should not have to ask MythVision to check their assertion; you should already know about 1 Thess 2,14-16 if you want to be taken seriously as someone who credibly disputes an historical Jesus crucified circa 30 CE.
Steefen
You do not know my personal relationships and personal motivations with MythVision.
Robert
It boggles the mind that you would bother to go and find 1 Thess 4 and read the whole chapter without realizing that a completely untrained amateur Internet interviewer made a simple mistake that confused you.
Steefen
I am not confused. I read chapter 4 to make sure I knew exactly what they were referencing. They were in need of a critique. I honored them by giving them a full hearing and then I gave them a red flag.
Other than that, you are 100% in error that I am confused, and other than that I agree that we disagree about this.
While many scholars have speculated that 1 Thess 2:14-16 might be an interpolation no one can assume it is because we have no ancient sources without the passage. (Of course mythicists must assume it is.) The NRSV points out that v16 is somewhat ambiguous. Paul might not be referring to an actual historical event but be viewing the fate of the Jews through an apocalyptic lens. But even if it is an interpolation it hardly validates mythicism.
I am thus attracted to Gerd Lüdemann’s dating of Paul’s letter to the Thessalonians to 41 CE, ‘though the continuing fear apparently remained for some time afterward and could also allow for a later date, as Bart thinks.
Yeah? I read Lüdemann’s thin but dense book on 1 Thess and did a double-take at his dating. I mentioned it in a post and Ehrman was very surprised.
Stephen said
Paul might not be referring to an actual historical event but be viewing the fate of the Jews through an apocalyptic lens.
The same apocalyptic lens that Jesus was using? We all know what scholars think of that lens: they even date the gospels such that a Jesus of the late 20s/early 30s was not an apocalyptic prophet making an accurate prophecy.
Let’s entertain the probability you’re putting forward.
Paul was viewing the fate of the Jews through an apocalyptic lens.
Apocalyptic prophecies are supposed to become actual historical events unless the apocalyptic prophet is a false prophet.
Jesus gave us an idea of the apocalyptic wrath. Paul as an apostle of Jesus is giving us a different idea of the apocalyptic wrath?
1 Thess Ch 2, v14 – v16
For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Judea that are in Christ Jesus.
You suffered from your own countrymen the very things they suffered from the Jews who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and drove us out as well. They are displeasing to God and hostile to all men, hindering us from telling the Gentiles how they may be saved. As a result, they continue to heap up their sins to full capacity; the utmost wrath has come upon them.
Robert
The utmost wrath for killing Jesus and their own prophets is
Steefen
Wait for it…
Robert
Rome will become increasingly anti-Jewish in their policies of Rome, for example, Caligula or a subsequent emperor will try to set up a statue of himself in the Temple of Jerusalem.
Steefen, Argumentation Specialist
That is supposed to teach people not to kill prophets? You are confused. Second, Rome did not care if Jews killed their own prophets.
Putting a statue in the Temple is not utmost wrath.
Jewish rebels desecrating the Temple is not the wrath of God, that is simply more wrongdoing by Jews.
Killing the high priests, Ananus and Jesus of Gamala, in the Temple and then desecrating them and the Temple by standing on the bodies of killed high priests is more desecration than your confused assertion that Rome’s desecration of the Temple was the wrath of God. That was simply more wrongdoing by Romans.
Judgement: Robert’s suggestion is rejected. He does not make a sound case.
Robert said
Steefen said
MythVision,
1 Thessalonians, 4th chapter does not say the wrath of God is coming on the Jews. I just went to biblehub and read that chapter and I did not see that.
(So, not yet can you say that letter was written post-AD70.)
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
Robert suggested MythVision meant 1 Thessalonians, Chapter Two.
Steve Campbell, Argumentation Specialist, did not agree because we are looking for future wrath, not wrath that has already come.
For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Judea that are in Christ Jesus. You suffered from your own countrymen the very things they suffered from the Jews,
v15
who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and drove us out as well. They are displeasing to God and hostile to all men,
v16
hindering us from telling the Gentiles how they may be saved. As a result, they continue to heap up their sins to full capacity; the utmost wrath has come upon them.
Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy
The verse does not read as a prophecy of the destruction of the Temple and of the devastation of Galilee and Jerusalem.
It would be interesting if the wording was: the utmost wrath will come upon them.
= = =
Steve Campbell, Argumentation Specialist
Just stop with 1 Thess, 2nd chapter. That is incorrect/wrong/erroneous.
Looking for future wrath on the Jews in Paul, one finds
1 Thess, 5th Chapter, Verse 3
While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction WILL COME upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
= = =
Looking at the history of the Jewish Civil War, the Jewish Rebel Leaders in their zeal and zest for power over what they thought was now a Jersualem free of the Roman Empire because they defeated the Roman military garrison of Judaea causing Agrippa II and Roman officials to flee Jersualem. The legate of Syria sent Legion XII Fulminata and reinforced auxiliary troops to restore order but the rebels defeated them too.
Zealots were sealed in the Temple compound [destruction will come and they will not escape]. Simon ben Giora commanding 15,000 troops was invited into Jerusalem by the Sadducees to stand against the Zealots (who apparently were in the Temple).
Menahem, a Sicarii leader tried to take control of the city but that failed.
Rome comes in:
wins the battle of Galilee
wins at Jotapata and gets Josephus to come over to their side
The Idumeans come up from the south and make their way to the Temple and kill the high priests Ananus and Jesus of Gamala.
= = =
That is the destructive wrath that was to come in the future, not Caligula or some future emperor putting his statue in the temple.
Looking for future wrath on the Jews in Paul, one finds
1 Thess, 5th Chapter, Verse 3
While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction WILL COME upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
= = =
Is Robert’s position that that 1 Thess, 2nd Chapter, Verse 16 is future tense when the verse is …the utmost wrath has come upon them?
= = =
Let’s see how much support he has for this error in tenses.
** you do not have permission to see this link **
More than 20 translations and none use the future tense.
Let’s try bible gateway. NIV and NASB 1995 also do not use the future tense.
= = =
As mentioned numerous times, Robert is insisting on the wrong result for the stated search: future wrath on Jews in the letters of Paul.
= = =
Robert
Only problem with your reasoning process: I never, ever supported a translation in the future tense here and even said it was mistaken.
Steefen
Wrong again.
There is nothing wrong with my reasoning process because you insisted on 1 Thess, 2nd chapter after repeatedly being told I was looking for future wrath verses from Paul.
You didn’t want to listen.
How many times do you have to be told the search really is about future wrath verses from Paul? How many times do you have to be told the Chapter 2 verses you put forward are wrong results for the query?
In order to get you participating in the conversation you were asked, the query is for future wrath verses from Paul but you keep suggesting the 1 Thess 2nd chapter verses, so are you answering the question because you think the 2nd chapter verses are referring to future wrath?
Well, thank you for acknowledging the 1 Thess 2nd chapter verses are the wrong answer for this question. Thank you for admitting you made the wrong suggestion. You do not get to re-write the question because the only answer you know is 1 Thess, 2nd chapter.
Scholars have rejected that in the late 20s/early 30s, Jesus accurately predicted Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies and the Temple would be destroyed. Gospels have been dated after AD 70 for this reason.
Well I don’t think Jesus predicted the First Revolt, if that’s what you mean. But Jesus could have easily preached about the fate of the Temple in the coming Kingdom and that got retrofitted into a prophecy after the destruction of Jerusalem.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
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At 1 Thessalonians, 5th Chapter, Verse 3, Paul says, “destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.”
Is there anywhere else where Paul joins Jesus in predicting destruction in Judea?
Paul says anywhere that his Revealed Jesus also revealed Apocalypse: Tribulation followed by the Son of Man ushering in the Kingdom of God?
Reply from Prof. Ehrman
1 Thess 5:3 is not talking about Judea, but about people in Thessalonica and elsewhere who have not come to believe in Jesus.
Reply to Dr. Ehrman
David Wenham, lecturer in New Testament at Wycliffe Hall, Oxford, England, faculty member of Theology, Oxford University, author of Paul: Follower of Jesus or Founder of Christianity published by Eerdmans
Steefen: Paul is telling the Thessalonians about Jewish Apocalypticism, tribulation, death, judgment (the Son of Man judges all). Paul is enlarging Eschatology beyond Judea. Earlier, in chapter 2:14-16, Paul tells them Judea is ground zero because the Jews killed both Jesus and other Jewish prophets–and they are hindering me (Paul) from telling Gentiles how they may be saved. As a result, the utmost wrath has come upon them: Parable of the Wicked Tenants (God will give the Land to other People), the Land will be surrounded by armies [Zealots will seal themselves in the Temple, Idumeans will kill high priest Jesus of Gamala there] and the Temple will be destroyed.
One scholar sees the scripture talking about Judea but you do not?