Everyone must be aware that computers in the work place, social media on the net, on our phones etc and elsewhere are gradually gaining more and more information about us. 5G will allow your phone to be located within parts of one room in a house. Alexia, Cortana, Siri and Google are recording everything we say with microphones, Google, Apple, Microsoft, Facebook are tracking everything we do on the net and reading what is on our computers and phones. AI will enable all this information to be put together and complete monitoring and manipulation of every single person on earth will be possible. The cashless society is coming, cards will go out soon after – they can be stolen – we will all be ID ed by facial recogntion and implantable RFIDs without which, we wll be unable to buy or sell: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Rev 13:16-17 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name
I am sure everyone is aware that all bar codes have 3 dividers on them which just happen to be 6s. 6 is also the number of mankind (created on the 6th day but falling short of perfection – 7).
Because of all the existential threats, everyone is beginning to think that a one world globalist goverment is the only answer – nationalism is criticized – and it may be that, pradoxically, unlikely unsavory personalities like Trump, Putin and Pro-Brexit politicians are holding a gloablist world governement back. Once aglobal government is formed (which will probably be mainly derived from Europe), it is likely to use AI to control all of us. If AI doesn’t sound like the image of the beast, then I don’t know what does:
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This is probably much nearer than we think – it is no longer wild speculation and it is certainly not conspiracy theory or the stuff of crazy fundamentalist apocalytic preachers and prophets – everyone with any insight can see that this is all happening at break-neck speed and it is likely to be further accelerated by the various existential threats: pollution, climate change, natural disasters, wars, food shortages etc.
But because all this is happening and because it was predicted by John of Patmos after his amazing vision (?OBE), rather than being fearful and depressed, we can be excited know that the messiah is about to return. So yes, I think this is a time to re-evaluate what is important and to re-evaluate our theology.
Shoot me down!
Odd indeed, but the Rev 13 account is pretty odd even without the batteries and the switch – I am sure I don’t need to remind anyone that metaphor is being employed here 
. Plus,.. one of the curent fears about AI is that there may not be an “off switch” (cf Elon Musk and his concerns about an “AI singularity”).
godspell said:
You have a social security card?
You want to bet nobody talked about Revelation back when that became a thing?
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Be a mensch, and admit this is all hooey.”
You have stated your beliefs (anti-suparnaturalist), but not discussed any evidence for them. As you know, I hold both natural and supernatural beliefs and so we interpret Jesus differently, history differently and apocalytic prophecy differently. Your premise is that nothing supernatural has ever happened or will ever happen – it all hooey, as you say.
My premise is that occasionally supernatural events (eg the resurrection) have happened and occasionally, they will happen in the future, but that there is also a lot of nonsense, charlatanery and false claims, which create a smoke screen (or a veil) which can hide ‘the real McCoy’. Certain prophecies, such as Isaiah 53, or, as in this case, Revelation 13, I actually hold to be supernaturally predictive, whereas you think they were just the products of creative imaginations.
Now of course Christians form 1st (?early 2nd) century have all tried to interpret Revelation as if it’s contents were immenent to their day. Starting with 666 being a code for Nero’s name, all the way through to socal security cards as you rightly point out.
But do you not find the parrellels I have drawn, striking?? (I make no claim to originality except AI and the Image of the beast – but I think others have also begun to see this amazing parallel). We are also at a time in history where more non-Christians than Christians are proclaiming that the end might be nigh, due to the prevalent multiple existential threats. Do you not find the 666 paralleles with divders on bar codes and the talk of a cashless society with all assets (including food) purchased by implanted RFIDs – just a little spooky in the context of the mark of the beast prophecy? And all this in the context of the pressing moves toward one world government – globalism as the solution our all our problems, together with increasing data collection and surveillance on all citizens?
On your anti-supernauralist premise, I would say that Revelation 13 was one hell of a good imaginative guess at what things might look like at the end of human history, espeically when one considers it was written 2000 years ago. That’s my evidence for supernaturalism in this sphere of the apocalyptic prophecy of Revelation. You haven’t provided any good arguments against it!
Whistle in the wind!, or give me some good arguments – come on gs, you can do better than you have so far 
Godspell said:
You don’t know anything about AI, and neither did the author of Revelation.
This is a history forum. Do you want to discuss history or not?
Neurotheologian replies:
Of course the author of Revelation didn’t know what AI was, but I think he sure saw something weird which was a copy or image of a either an empire or it’s leader which kinda controlled everything via a mark on (or in – Gk ‘epi-) the skin without which you couldn’t buy or sell and which had a human number – 666. Weird and unimaginabkle for then!!!, but for now, quite imaginable!
Don’t go beating that drum about my threads being ‘inappropriate for the forum’ – we both know that I could dig out a few of your posts which don’t meet the appropriateness criteria (shh! – I won’t tell anyone – but they are out there in the ether, so watch out, the image of the beast may find them ????)
Let’s be objective then. Every generation since the first has interpreted the Book Of Revelation to be speaking about their times and claimed that the end was nigh. They were obviously all wrong. What makes your interpretation any more likely to be right? Especially since critical NT scholars don’t think the dispensationalist millennial view of revelation is correct.
I can’t stick to the arguments because you haven’t made any. “The author of Revelation had visions of the future that he interpreted in the context of his own cultural milieu” isn’t an argument. It’s the premise for a bad cable series, at best. Only they usually go with Nostradamus.
Revelation has been quite conclusively shown to be a commentary on its author’s own time. Not a vision of the future, but an allegory of the present. The number of the beast refers to Nero.
Have you ever sat down and read serious scholarly analysis of Revelation? No, because you’d rather just make stuff up. It’s fun for you. Okay. Debunking paranormal crap is fun for me. 😉
Here’s an argument, and a very intelligent one at that (from a Christian), that takes into account both the times the author of Revelation lived in, and his underlying themes, the story he’s trying to tell. Which is not written in the subgenre of dystopian science fiction. Not that there would be anything wrong with that. But that’s not what this is.
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So maybe influenced by the way pagans used marks to distinguish themselves, or subordinate people such as slaves.
But in fact, Revelation says that God will also use marks to set apart those who are justified in His sight. Satan is simply parodying that with his own mark. Which is also a reference to Nero, who the author of this text sees as the Beast, the symbol of a corrupt decadent pagan world that will soon be replaced with something better–I guess you could argue that happened with Constantine (I wouldn’t go that far), but Nero was dead several centuries before then. So if it was a prophecy, it was a failed one. Empires fall, or change hands, without any divine intervention. It’s one of the few things we can always count upon. What goes up must come down. Nothing created by men endures forever.
It’s not about the far distant future. It’s about things that were happening in the author’s own time, and even in that context, it’s not meant in a literal matter-of-fact way. It is useless as a prophecy of future events, but since people don’t want to admit that, they keep looking for some way to fit it to the times they are in.
Put me in Martin Luther’s camp regarding Revelation–“It is not revealing.” 😉
Stephen said
Let’s be objective then. Every generation since the first has interpreted the Book Of Revelation to be speaking about their times and claimed that the end was nigh. They were obviously all wrong. What makes your interpretation any more likely to be right? Especially since critical NT scholars don’t think the dispensationalist millennial view of revelation is correct.
Hi Stephen, firslty I have not made an argument for a full dispensalialist eschatology, only that chapter 13 of John of Patmos’s probable out-of-body expereince, with it’s particular metahorical imagery of an all powerful end-of-world-history empire (beast) which gives it’s power to some kind of copy or image, demands worship/obedience and which exerts total control over its citizens, including control of all buying and selling via some kind of mark in the skin, bears striking resemblance to what we can now imagine happening. That’s essentially all I have argued.
I further argue that such a shockingly accurate resemblance in a 2000 year old prophecy, is more likely explained by a supernatural element to the prophecy, than simply by the wild and creative imagination of a second temple period raving apoclaypticist.
Ie the scholars you refer to could all be wrong in the sense of lemmings.
godspell said
Here’s an argument, and a very intelligent one at that (from a Christian), that takes into account both the times the author of Revelation lived in, and his underlying themes, the story he’s trying to tell. Which is not written in the subgenre of dystopian science fiction……..** you do not have permission to see this link **So maybe influenced by the way pagans used marks to distinguish themselves, or subordinate people such as slaves……
It’s not about the far distant future. It’s about things that were happening in the author’s own time….. godspell, remember, you don’t know this any more than I know my intepretation is the better one.
Yes, that’s a reasonable argument, but I think that the more literal interpretation I have argued for is now becoming more plausible than ever before.
I have always thought that apocalyptic, future-predicting prophecy that’s genuine (I obviously beleive that some is), only becomes clear just before, or as it is being fullfilled – as a kind of reminder to trust God, who knows the future and, despite all appearances, is in over-all control. I beleive it happened this way with Isaiah 53 and in fact ‘revelatory’ or ‘apocalyti’c means the unveiling of secrets, just as I discussed with the interpretation of the un-veiling of the messianic secret.
Neurotheologian said
Stephen said
Let’s be objective then. Every generation since the first has interpreted the Book Of Revelation to be speaking about their times and claimed that the end was nigh. They were obviously all wrong. What makes your interpretation any more likely to be right? Especially since critical NT scholars don’t think the dispensationalist millennial view of revelation is correct.Hi Stephen, firslty I have not made an argument for a full dispensalialist eschatology, only that chapter 13 of John of Patmos’s probable out-of-body expereince, with it’s particular metahorical imagery of an all powerful end-of-world-history empire (beast) which gives it’s power to some kind of copy or image, demands worship/obedience and which exerts total control over its citizens, including control of all buying and selling via some kind of mark in the skin, bears striking resemblance to what we can now imagine happening. That’s essentially all I have argued.
I further argue that such a shockingly accurate resemblance in a 2000 year old prophecy, is more likely explained by a supernatural element to the prophecy, than simply by the wild and creative imagination of a second temple period raving apoclaypticist.
Ie the scholars you refer to could all be wrong in the sense of lemmings.
Good job of eliding my point. Everybody else doing what you’re doing was wrong. What makes you think you’re right?
Neuro, even as a literal interpretation, it’s very weak. There’s just no similarity between the passage in Revelation and what’s happening now. Zero. PRODUCTS get marked. Not the people selling them. You are forcing it to beat the band.
Nor is this original–searching for a reasonable interpretation of this passage, I found scores along the same lines as your own, mostly from fundamentalist Christians looking for signs of the End Times.
Honestly, I think they support Trump mainly because he’s their best chance of living to see those End Times that have eluded so many generations before them. 😉
Robert said
It is interesting how very quickly Luther went from being a very rational reformer of the 95 theses to becoming himself a rather rabid apocalypticist proclaiming the pope and others to be the anti-Christ. Some people (eg, Bart, I believe) see the recurring apocalypticism of Christianity in every generation to be an essential part of Christianity throughout the ages, and it certainly is for many of these types, but we both grew up in Catholicism, the largest ‘denomination’ of Christians, where such apocalyptic beliefs are hardly ever endorsed, at least not in modern times. I don’t know a lot about Luther, but his apparent quick transition from reasonable reformer to raving apocalypticist has always fascinated me. That may more of a caricature than a fair portrait, by the way.
Interesting Robert, I wasn’t aware of this about Luther. I think Bart and other scholars seeing ‘recurring apocalypticism of Christianity in every generation to be an essential part of Christianity’ is also very interesting and sounds right. The mystery that surrounds apocalyptic imagery has an attractive pull to it and the themes of judgment and justice being meeted out also promise to fulfill deep human desires – a bit like the eastern belief in Karma. One interesting question arsiing from whaty you say is why have Roman Catholics been less prone to this apocalyptic tendency? Why indeed, as you ask, did Luther go that way after his criticism of Revelation? All of this dosen’t of course detract from the possibility that apocalyticist prophecies may contain some supernatural truth: human civilization by be heading for a denoument, global natural diasters, wars with columns of fire and smoke (no explanation required), food shortages, sea pollution and cosmic phenomena, may be about to happen on a big scale as envisaged in these prophecies. An evil totalitarian final world empire might arise and Jesus of Nazareth might return to planet earth in a much more un-veiled and obviously supernatural form. I beleive this to be the case, as you undoubtedly realize.
Robert said
It is interesting how very quickly Luther went from being a very rational reformer of the 95 theses to becoming himself a rather rabid apocalypticist proclaiming the pope and others to be the anti-Christ. Some people (eg, Bart, I believe) see the recurring apocalypticism of Christianity in every generation to be an essential part of Christianity throughout the ages, and it certainly is for many of these types, but we both grew up in Catholicism, the largest ‘denomination’ of Christians, where such apocalyptic beliefs are hardly ever endorsed, at least not in modern times. I don’t know a lot about Luther, but his apparent quick transition from reasonable reformer to raving apocalypticist has always fascinated me. That may more of a caricature than a fair portrait, by the way.
I covered the Reformation pretty thoroughly during grad school, and he’s a fascinating fellow. Long before his break with the Vatican, he was in mortal dread of going to hell, and found the Catholic answer to his problem unsatisfactory (Purgatory was, for a black&white person like Luther, a cop out–God doesn’t grade on a curve–God is on the pass/fail system).
Most of what he did was based on his own personal need to know for a fact that he was saved, not damned. I think the personality type is very similar to Paul and Augustine–not as brilliant as either, nor did he have as much fun as Augustine in his youth–and instead of working to unify Christendom, he ended up shattering it. But the same ravenous hunger for certainty.
It was an apocalyptic time (there were a lot of those). The relative stability of medieval feudalism was breaking down. Printing revolutionized everything. And Luther was a German. Not to overgeneralize, but you can’t leave that out.
Catholicism rejected apocalyptic thought, I think, because it represented that side of Augustinian thought that called for maintaining the ordered unity of Christendom–The City of God (quite a different thing from The Kingdom). Dostoevsky summed it up pretty well (in his own Papist-fearing way) in The Grand Inquisitor. Christ actually returning would be a logistical nightmare. We’re not ready! Come back later! 😉
godspell said
Neuro, even as a literal interpretation, it’s very weak. There’s just no similarity between the passage in Revelation and what’s happening now. Zero. PRODUCTS get marked. Not the people selling them. You are forcing it to beat the band.Nor is this original–searching for a reasonable interpretation of this passage, I found scores along the same lines as your own, mostly from fundamentalist Christians looking for signs of the End Times.
Honestly, I think they support Trump mainly because he’s their best chance of living to see those End Times that have eluded so many generations before them. 😉
Yes, products get marked and strangely, all bar codes are divided by 3 dividers, which just happen to be the bar code for 6. I think that’s at least a spooky coincidence, even if you don’t think it currently fits perfectly as a literal fullfilment, but remember we are not there yet (or at least I hope not
). So lets get back to the text: Rev 13: 17-18:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
The number of the beast and the name of the beast are not the mark of the beast, though they are clealry all related. So I am not forcing anything to ‘beat the band’ as you put it.
Whatever the reason for those who support the verbally-incontinent, coarse and clumsy Donald Trump, he is actually holding back globalization, so he might in a paradoxical way being doing us all a favour!! 
. The same of course, applies to the unsavoury Brexit politician, Nigel Farage. But this is not relevant to the argument I am making.
godspell said
I covered the Reformation pretty thoroughly during grad school, and he’s a fascinating fellow. Long before his break with the Vatican, he was in mortal dread of going to hell, and found the Catholic answer to his problem unsatisfactory (Purgatory was, for a black&white person like Luther, a cop out–God doesn’t grade on a curve–God is on the pass/fail system).
Most of what he did was based on his own personal need to know for a fact that he was saved, not damned. I think the personality type is very similar to Paul and Augustine–not as brilliant as either, nor did he have as much fun as Augustine in his youth–and instead of working to unify Christendom, he ended up shattering it. But the same ravenous hunger for certainty.
It was an apocalyptic time (there were a lot of those). The relative stability of medieval feudalism was breaking down. Printing revolutionized everything. And Luther was a German. Not to overgeneralize, but you can’t leave that out.
Catholicism rejected apocalyptic thought, I think, because it represented that side of Augustinian thought that called for maintaining the ordered unity of Christendom–The City of God (quite a different thing from The Kingdom). Dostoevsky summed it up pretty well (in his own Papist-fearing way) in The Grand Inquisitor. Christ actually returning would be a logistical nightmare. We’re not ready! Come back later! 😉
All interesting observations, which I am minded to broadly accept
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