Miles said
Here’s your test for whether this was prophesy of AI and bar codes and the like. If at the time Revelations was written, before AI and bar codes were even conceivable, one would have been able to read Revelations and see that AI and bar codes are predicted to occur in the future, even if not known by name (e.g., something like machines will think like humans and special bars of ink will be put on consumer products so that a beam of light will tell the merchant how many pieces of silver to charge), then maybe you’ve got a prophesy foretelling AI and bar codes. If you can only see this revelation after AI and bar codes are known, then it’s predicting nothing about it.    

Hi Miles.  I disagree with your conclusion, which is also your premise.  Firstly, I always like to have a little dig at any one who spells the book of Revelation with an ‘s’ on the end.  However, that’s theological snobbery or point-scoring, but it does make the point that Revelation, or to use the alternative translation ‘Apocalypse’ (literally ‘unveiling)’ is a single revelation – probably a very vivid and powerful out-of-body altered state of consciousness (Rev 4:1-2 ……..behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven…..;  Rev 17:3 Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast….)

Your premise, which effectively says that the contents of the book should be completely understood literally by the people at the time of the prophecy, is contradicted by the very first verse of Revelation Rev 1:1 in which ‘the things that must shortly come to pass’ are said to be ‘signified’ or in signs (Gk ‘sēmainō’).  You can of course point to the term ‘shortly’, but that is a very different argument which we could of course get into.  It is also clear that at times in the book John himself had trouble understanding what he was seeing.  (eg Rev 17:6-7 ….When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.   Then the angel said to me: “Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery….)

Also, in the very similar apocalyptic sections of Daniel, in which very similar symbolic beasts are described, we have the intriguing statement Dan 12:8-9: I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?”  He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end”

Of course, all this ties in with the name of the book ‘the unveiling’ or the ‘revealing’ indicating that stuff is veiled or kept secret at least partly by the symbolic language used.

Also, there is the simple logic that if Revelation (and Daniel for that matter) really are talking about ‘the time of the end’ as they both claim to be; and because the end has still not come yet (!) after thousands of years of human technological development have passed, it is hardly surprising that what they both saw in their visions would not be recognisable to anyone at the time!!

Finally, I often get the impression that biblical prophecy is only meant to be fully understood at the time of its fullfillment.  eg ‘today this prophecy is fullfilled in your hearing’.  This lends credence to the notion that God is ultimately in control without, as it were, giving the game away (fully) in advance 🙂

Back to Rev 13:  I don’t think there is much of a problem interpreting ‘the mark of the beast without which anyone couldn’t buy or sell’ being almost literally an RFID with personal identity and credit card details.    The meaning and interpretation number 666 is clearly stated – it is the number of humanity / man and in the context of an end-times global world empire which the beast is clearly a symbol of and, bearing in mind where the world now appears to headed, I don’t think heavy weather is needed to work out that this could signify a humanist world empire.  As for bar codes, all bar codes ACTUALLY have the number 666 as dividers for the code – check it out and be shocked!! 

However my interpretation of the ‘image of the beast’  being given life or ‘breath’ as AI becoming conscious (so called strong AI or AC) is arguable and needs a little more explanation.   The word image (Gk Eikon) is used to mean a copy or a representation – ie artificial representation of the real thing.   The ‘thing’ is the beast ie ‘the global government’.  AI is an attmpt to copy human intelligence or the human mind and AC or strong AI is the attempt to make that copy conscious .  The artificial representation is given ‘life’ (GK pneuma): Rev 13:15 ‘to give breath [pneuma] to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak’ .  Pneuma, literally breath, in the NT is translated sometimes as life, but usually as ‘spirit’ and is used both for life and mind (or consciousness).  Life and consciousness in Hellenistic thought and in other ancient cultures, were considered to be 2 sides of the same coin.  Thus we have artificial copy / image of the beast being given consciousness.

I rest my case ????

Stephen said
But isn’t there something absurd about claiming that the Book of Revelation was intended for one generation of people in the future?  Every generation of interpreters since the beginning has thought they were the generation for whom it was intended. Near as I can tell they were all wrong.  Why should you be any less wrong than they were?     

Hi Stephen.  That’s a strawman.  Here is the nuanced difference:  I never suggested Revelation was only ‘intended for one generation of people’, however, I did suggest that the events in it were about the one generation living at the time of the end!  I have always thought Revelation was parimarily a book about ‘the time of the end’ even though some of its themes may have given inspiration to Christians over the years; and been partially applicable to other times through history.  Indeed, I fully agree that, as you say, “every generation of interpreters since the beginning has thought they were the generation for whom it was intended”.  Indeed, I wonder whether this was partly its divine purpose, because living with the doctine of immancency (of the return of Jesus or of ‘the Kingdom of God coming in power’) is perhaps the best antidote to losing faith and losing a divine perspective on life (just as contemplating one’s own mortality is  – the immanency of one’s own death).

The reason why we are likely to be as you put it, ‘less wrong than they were’, is that, by simple logic, we know we are nearer the end :-), but also because, as I have argued, the details of the prophecy are now so much more interpretable in the light of our current world events and in the light of what even secular intellectuals and experts in various fields are predicting (global goverment, cashless society, RFIDs, AI becoming conscious, multiple existential threats – poluution, global warming, food shortages, nuclear war etc).

Stephen said

Don’t you see that every generation since the end of the First Century using Revelation as a basis for predicting the future has said the very same thing?    Our current events are clearly revealed in prophecy and our experts agree!  Doesn’t the fact that everyone who has ever tried this strategy of interpretation has been wrong give you the slightest pause?

Actually any good critical commentary on Revelation can guide you through it and tell you what it really meant for its audience who would have understood all the imagery in the book.  It seems weird and strange to us because it wasn’t written to us.  

Yes, the fact that every generation since the first century have thought Revelation applied to events during their lifetimes does give me pause to consider that we may not be the last generation referred to in the book.   However, for reasons outside the book of Revelation, I believe that there will be a global government in my lifetime – one driven by humanist principles of securing world peace and saving the planet (but I beleive absolute power corrupts absolutely).  I believe that there will be a cashless society with RFIDs replacing credit/debit cards (to protect against identity theft).  I believe that all our personal data, currently being colected by the tech giants, will be used, along with increasing surveillance and the use of AI (eg in facial recognition and in monitoring all the data), to control citizens – in the name of defense against terrorism.  I know that tech companies already have the aim of making AI conscious, or at least appear to be conscious.   I beleive the planet will run into a crisis with food shortages, sea and air pollution and war.  I worry that the US, the one nation that acts as a deterent and world policeman, like other great empires will soon fall – maybe as a result of being hit by an EMP weapon and or by a natural disaster, such as the Yellowstone super-volcano errupting.  I can see how a subsequent world goverment could easily turn against Israel on the basis of the Palestinian problem and how this could lead to an Armageddon type war. 

Therefore, for reasons external to the book of Revelation, I think we are at the very end of the age and I actually think the book seems less ‘weird and stange to us’ than to all previous generations for the very reason that technological developements and globalization have made the events in the book appear less imagistic and more realistic!  I can also see how world events could fit together with Biblical apocalyptic prophecy as a whole – the rest of Revelation as well as Daniel and Matthew 24 and 25 included.  I also believe passionately in the physical return of Jesus Christ to planet earth.  Do you?  Does not the state of the world give you the slightest pause?

tompicard said
Neurotheologian

Do you believe Joni Mitchell actually

dreamed [she] saw the bombers

Riding shotgun in the sky

Turning into butterflies
Above our nation.

(i.e a dream while she was asleep or even a waking vision)

if not, why do you think John of Patmos had an actual dream, rather than just putting his hopes for the future down in verse or prose (probably using symbols as obvious to people of his times as are the symbols Joni used is the 1960s)?  

That’s a creative way of framing a question.   I really don’t know anything about Joni Mitchell or her song or the dream to which the song pertains, so I can’t comment sepcifically on this aspect of your question.   As to the general point which your example raises, I certainly believe that people in this day and age ‘see visions and dream dreams’  in the supernatural sense.  However, I agree that many claims may indeed be wishful thinking, imagination, deceipt (of self or others or both) or simply normal REM dreams, which have been over-interpreted as prophecies.  This makes the whole business of sorting out what is from God very ‘messy’ and uncertain.  I see this messiness and uncertainty as part of the ‘veil’ over the secrets of God’s truths, which I have discussed in previous posts on different topics espeically in the Markian Messinic Secret & The Johanine Messianic Revelation. 

As to John of Patmos, to describe the whole vision of Revelation as ‘his hopes for the future’ while potentially applicable to Revelation Chapter 21, I would submit, is a simplification that is somewhat bizarre to apply to the whole book, bearing in mind the horrific content of most of the book (incluidng a lot of ‘saint slaying’).   

At the end of the day, whether one judges Revelation as a deliberately fabricated account by John of Patmos, dressed up in 2nd temple period apocalyptic imagery to gain credibility and foster mystery and intrigue, rather than it being a true account of a mystical experience, depends on what one’s presuppositions are or, as I see it, whether one’s skepticism out-weighs one’s desire to seek truth.   As to the contents of the mystical experience of Revelation, as you have gathered, I think they are truely prophetic of the time of the end.

Stephen said
However, for reasons outside the book of Revelation…

All the examples you gave are indeed legitimate concerns but my point is that every generation has had its crises and disasters.  Think of the Black Plague in the 14th century where in the space of four years half the population of Europe died.  People living then thought that was the end of the world too.

Look the book of Revelation is not about that.  The point of the book is that every part of our lives as humans has cosmic significance because it is played out against a background of a cosmic struggle between the forces of good and evil.  Sure it describes the ultimate victory of the Kingdom of God over the demonic forces that control the world but that hope belongs to everyone not just one privileged generation.  Or to put it another way every generation is privileged to be a participant in the struggle which will have it’s ultimate fulfillment in the destruction of the evil forces that control the world, by God.   

Yes, agreed about the Plague (Black Death) and and that people living then thought that was the end of the world too.  And yes,  there are parts of Revelation that are partly applicable to that time; and which probably did give hope to those poor people.  For the same reason, I also agree with you that there are indeed generally applicable truths in Revelation about, as you put it, ‘ultimate victory of the Kingdom of God over the demonic forces that control the world but that hope belongs to everyone not just one privileged generation’ and I agree with the other way you eloquently expressed this theme: ‘every generation is privileged to be a participant…. ‘ etc.  However, as you have gathered, I also believe in a more literal fullfilment for the last generation, which I think might be us.  So we are not very far apart.

A friend posted this on FB today:
My wife said to me: ‘why are you speaking so quietly?’ I said: ‘I don’t want Zuckerberg, Apple or Microsoft hearing everything I say!’ She laughed. I laughed. Alexa laughed. Siri Laughed. Cortana laughed. Google laughed.

Stephen said
 John of Patmos is very clear in describing an actual experience[sic]

Well this is where modern critical scholarship would disagree.  The apocalypse is a literary genre.  The writer is not necessarily describing a personal vision (although he my have had personal visions).  The images and symbols used in these works draw from a pre-existing library of such.  His audience would have been able to read it with ease.  Only outsiders would be befuddled which of course is exactly the point.     

Dear Stephen Warning!:  this is where, as an amateur, I am going to upset the professional theologians, the academics and all the other scholars.   I am really sorry, but I just can’t accept all these imprecise theolgical labels such as ‘literary genres’, ‘literary motifs’, ‘apocalyptic literature’ being used as generalizations to discount what the text actaully says.  I’m sorry chaps, but I’ve always been a bit of a rebel and this sort of thing really gets me going.  This is what the text actaully says:

Rev 1:10-12  I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet saying, I am Alpha and Omega, …….  What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia…….  And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw... ;

Rev 1:17  And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me,…..
Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Rev 22:8:  And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

I believe what John of Patmos said about his experience was genuine and not a fabrication based on current apocalyptic literary genres.  I believe 100% that he had an real vision, almost certainly an OBE, for the resons in the text I have previously argued.  I just don’t accept the modern critical consensus.  Remember the saying: ‘a thousand lemmings can’t be wrong’?