(20 votes, average: 4.75 out of 5)
Loading...To celebrate the launch of our new blog site I am starting by posting Five Favorites from years gone by, one post from each of the blog’s first five years, 2012-16. Here is one I’ve chosen from 2013. One of the issues I sometimes address on the blog when I’m not talking directly about the New Testament and earliest Christianity is my take on “the problem of suffering.” It’s not just a big issue but also an emotionally difficult one. That is more or less what this post is about, as someone objects to my decision to air my views.
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Sometimes people get upset because I deal with the problem of suffering even though I don’t seem to be experiencing any severe pain and misery myself. Here is an example of the kind of comment I occasionally receive, this from someone commenting to me on Facebook a couple of days ago:
“Dude, in a world of suffering, you claim doubts in deity because you live the privileged life of a UNC professor. If you lived in a 40-year-old trailer in Tarboro, I’d take you more seriously. And you even charge people to read your self-indulgent crap. Just for the record, I’m a non-theist. But I’m not a hypocrite.”
I take comments like this very seriously. Even though I recognize that it is a bit hostile, my sense is that a lot of people who feel this way are themselves experiencing real hardship and find it offensive that I would have the gall to talk about issues of pain and suffering.
I think it is an important issue and worth addressing. When I first received this comment on Facebook I had a number of conflicted and conflicting responses. My first response involved a series of rather severe expletives. No need to go into that here….
My next response was “Dude, you don’t know the first *thing* about my life, so what are you talking about?” The idea that UNC professors don’t suffer is outrageous. But there is no need for me to go there either. I can say up front that I prefer not to go into the details of how I’ve suffered in life; but I can also say that it is absolutely true that however much I’ve suffered before (and of course I have. Is there someone who hasn’t?), I do have a very good life and I am very grateful for it.
My next response was more considered, and I’m not done having it yet. I’m thinking through the issues, as I do whenever I face this kind of hostile reaction. Here are some of the things I’m thinking of:
To see the rest of this post, you will need to be a blog member. It’s easy to join, and you get huge benefits. And every penny you pay for your small membership fee goes to charities helping those in need. So why not??
The idea that one must walk a mile in another’s shoes before one can have an opinion on anything does seem to be an emerging perspective in our culture. While trying to view an issue from as many perspectives as possible probably won’t hurt, I do not believe that it is necessary to be able to have an opinion on a given subject, especially when you are forthcoming about the background from which you come. It does strike me as dangerous for people to be able to dismiss an argument, not because of the validity or soundness of the argument, but because of some characteristic of the person who is making the argument.
Bart – Given the worldwide pandemic, the stage seems more than set for specific religions to step up and provide real time answers to so many struggling people as to what religion can do for them. Why isn’t this happening? This is the perfect time for religious leaders to say and do something meaningful, not just what is usually done, but something inspired to help all of us cope. Your books clearly explain that early Christian writers spoke in response to the times that they lived in. Who is writing today, during one of the hardest times in a hundred years – to uplift our thoughts, give us direction, provide strength? Who is saying, “Follow me, I know the way?” Our world needs help now, whether we follow a religion or not, believe in God or not, or just don’t know. Where are those voices? Will any words of wisdom be read centuries from now that made a difference for us in 2020 and beyond?
Thanks for thinking about this – Howard
I wish I knew. Maybe they are saying such things but few people are listening?
Hello Bart
In Daniel Dennett’s definition: responsibility = respond to reason.
Let me start by presenting to you the challenge I formulate to any person who believes in the Golden Rule: please tell me if you know of any better plan than this to ensure that no one will be left behind – in less than a decade!:
https://www.undp.org/content/undp/en/home/sustainable-development-goals.html
The Sustainable Development Goals (SDG) for 2030, also known as the 2030 Agenda, are driven by the moral imperative to ‘leave no one behind, not even the most vulnerable’:
Five factors are proposed as key to understanding who is being left behind and why:
discrimination;
place of residence;
socio-economic status;
governance;
and vulnerability to shocks.
The factors can be applied using a three-pronged approach: to examine the disadvantages people face; empower those who are being left behind; and to enact inclusive, far-sighted and progressive SDG policies.
“The person who is suffering from gross economic injustice and is, as a result, living in poverty: is that person necessarily better qualified to establish the policy for the International Monetary Fund than someone else? Or to set governmental economic policy for his country?”
Qualified experts representative of the world’s many traditions and cultures, respecting human rights and dignity, and sustainability for the biosphere, have answered this.
Thanks for this. I do not think I want others to reply and get into strictly social and political/ economic etc. issues on the blog, although I think as you know I have very deep convictions about and commitments to the issues.
Possibly a dumb question.
So as a Gold sub will this be added to the podcast on the same day?
Will weekend posts also be added to the podcast or just weekday?
Thanks,
Sam ✌️
We’ve set them up to appear on the same day as the written post.
“… ask what their suffering can tell us about the world we live in and about whether there is a caring and powerful God who is in control of it.”
“… Dinesh D’Souza … sometimes would … stress that people who suffer are precisely the ones who are more likely to turn to a divine being.”
Did Jesus believe there was a caring and powerful God in control of the world. Not really, or not yet, not during (t)his evil age. And when he was in the midst of his most profound suffering, and turned to a divine being, he was abandoned by God, or so the evangelist Mark tells us.
So why do fundamentalists think there should be quick and easy answers to the problem of suffering?
People *ask* you about your stance on human suffering all the time! Are you not allowed to have an opinion on the question if you earn an income above the poverty line? There is so much carefully-engineered toxic class envy poisoning the public discussion on almost everything these days, and it’s unfortunate to see it leveled at you in such a blatant ad hominem attack.
This blog is a great thing to me because of the information, intellectual challenges, and dialogue that it offers. It’s an even greater thing because of the good that it does for those less fortunate. I’d wager that the recipients of the good will generated by what you “charge people” are very grateful indeed for the opinion you have on human suffering.
I think people who raise these objections to the discussion of suffering are to some degree simply trying to avoid wrestling with the difficulties of the subject. This is basically an ad hominem attack, which is a fallacious method of argument. I wonder, what is their criteria for how much suffering one must have experienced in order to be able to talk about suffering in the world? I would turn their argument back on them: who are they to say that you or I haven’t had adequate life experience to have pertinent and useful thoughts and feelings on the subject?
Great points.
I don’t know the context that lead to the non-theist to accuse Bart of being a hypocrite. I have never come across any of Bart’s writings or talks or debates that sounds remotely hypocritical. Notwithstanding everybody must surely have been hypocritical to some degree at some point in their lives, I am unaware of any hypocrisy on part Bart’s actions compared against his expressed views on the problem of suffering. I think many readers with knowledge of the main reason for existence of this blog and the good it has done to alleviate the suffering of homeless people, would not agree with such accusations against Bart.
Dinesh D’Souza makes a bold assertion that people who suffer are precisely the ones who are more likely to turn to a divine being. It would be fascinating to see if there are sociological and psychological studies that attempt to evaluate the claim. Is it really true that people who have gone through more suffering, are more likely to turn to gods or God? One problem with the question is that it is hard to measure the degree of suffering across individuals in a population, except in horrendous cases – people afflicted with serious and persistent ill-health or disabilities, people who suddenly lost whole families, people falsely imprisoned or tortured for doing the right thing. Are people in these exceptional situations more inclined to turn to divine being(s)? There are certainly accounts of such people – but it is next to impossible to assess whether they are representative of most people who underwent exceptional suffering. The counter-argument is there are also many accounts of religious people who lost their faith after a major episode of personal suffering.
Been wrestling with the in extremis perspective myself, wondering at what point we call a spade a spade with meaningless suffering. Thanks for putting your thoughts down. They help.
I appreciate Professor Ehrman’s concern about the suffering of others. I know that Ehrman has contributed a lot of his earnings to the charity. At the same time, I also notice that many wealthy, privileged people enjoying all the pleasures in life without even acknowledging the presence of the poor, the homeless, the downtrodden people living in the same society.
By the way, in the East the Buddha uses the word “Dukha” to describe the opposite state of satisfaction, happiness, and bliss. “Duhka” is usually translated to English as “Suffering”. As we can see this translation is very semantic defective. Here is the example, when a multi billionaire lost his wife through a nasty divorce, or lost his only son through an automobile accident, he is in the state of “Dukha”. Similarly, a day laborer can’t not feed her children with enough food, she’s in the state of “Dukha”.
People like the fellow that alludes he lives in a 40 year old trailer in Tarboro, NC may suffer from what I would term, “success envy.” A shallow view of a person with the assumption that their entire life has been a bowl of cherries. I have experienced the same type of assumptions from people that my life has always been grand and easy because I receive a state pension. Which I call “pension envy.”
Not sure why I’m being told ” I need to be a blog member ” in red ink right above where it tells me “Logged in as SGoldleaf”.
It’s always been that way for 8 years! I’m trying to figure out how to alter the way it’s done.
Hi Bart,
I think I would respond, as I respond to my students when they say the same thing to me, is that it’s called empathy. Empathy doesn’t make me a better person than another but it does mean that a lot of my religious (I call myself an agnostic though I am intensely interested in religion in general) opinions and political convictions are rooted in it. The person chiding you for your not having suffered is just playing some pathetic form of suffering one upmanship. He needs to grow up.
These types of allegations and attacks are (at least should be) beyond the need to defend yourself !
You can be a doctor who is a member of “Doctors Without Borders” without being sick, you can work passionately for peace without being shot at, you can do volunteer work without benefiting from it, you can defend something that is valuable to you, you can, you can go in between to help someone and without getting anything in return,,, etc etc etc ,,,,,
My sincere concerns are many, and my desires for a better world are also many that do not benefit me personally in my daily life, and they are still nightmarish.
These concerns and needs are beyond the level these comments argue for.
I am not surprised that you care about the suffering of others and yourself. How can we not care about babies born with severe birth defects, people who spend their lives suffering from major illnesses, or the thousands of children who starve to death every day, to mention only the tip of the iceberg of suffering?
So many people don’t, often those with huge resources and power at their disposal to do something about it. It’s hard to get one’s mind around…
“In my debates on the meaning of suffering with Dinesh D’Souza, he sometimes would raise a point like this person on Facebook, and stress that people who suffer are precisely the ones who are more likely to turn to a divine being, so that it doesn’t make sense for me to think about their suffering and turn *away* from a divine being. I think it’s an interesting point. But even though I’m concerned about people who suffering terribly, I don’t think that they necessarily have to dictate what my views about suffering, or about a divine being, should be.”
What Dinesh is describing is a placebo effect. Belief in a divine being is like giving a patient a sugar pill and convincing him that it will cure his terminal illness. That pill, just like the belief in a divine being, possibly provides some degree of mental and emotional relief to someone who is suffering. But it’s a fantasy to believe that the pill really would cure the illness, just as it’s a fantasy to believe that a divine being actually exists. There’s no evidence for either of these existence beliefs.
I think your feelings/view resonate with some and may not with others. But you are entitled to your feelings, no doubt. A couple of things from your post, as I, myself, struggle with moral and ethical discipline (humility). First, I think people who struggle are more likely to turn to a divine being because their pride and dignity is shattered. Most often by not their own choosing, and hope is all they cling to. Poverty is lack of opportunity. Second, “response” is arguably a decent approach. Considering past to present human behaviour and left to our own ability to collectively make things better, well, I’ll leave that for all to reflect on more deeply. Andrew Ballester, co-founder of Go Fund Me, in an interview televised nationally a few years back said,” The people who need the money the most don’t seem to get it. It’s often the one’s that needed less that do well”. Michael J. Sandel has a good argument relating somewhat to this as well.He calls it Meritocracy. Are we rewarding excessively, monetarily, those who are well educated/skilled and leaving those who really need help behind ? The Tyranny of Merit; What’s become of the common good, may…….
In your July post on “Religious opponents and making stuff up” you make salient points about the outrageous lies the writers against heretics made ending with Ephinianis (sp. I know) and The Greater Questions of Mary. They were strong points.
I urge you “Dude” to apply the same metrics to yourself and your oppenents. It is beyond the pale to say since you aren’t suffering in a slum, you cannot write about suffering. It is just social media nonsense.
You aren’t a first century apocalyptic Jew, you can’t write about them. Where are your bone fides on being a Greek-writing second century former pagan? How DARE YOU write about their community, you cannot possibly understand…
It is a low, personal blow – misappropriating the mechanics of cultural appropriation (which is an issue in the US) but not here.
I’m confused about what Caiaphas is claimed to have thought he was saying in John 11:47 – 53 (copied below from NASB). Can you explain?
47 Therefore the chief priests and the Pharisees convened a council, and were saying, “What are we doing? For this man is performing many [l]signs. 48 If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.” 49 But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all, 50 nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish.” 51 Now he did not say this [m]on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but in order that He might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad. 53 So from that day on they planned together to kill Him.
Obviously this is not something he really said, but in the context of the Gospel of John, he is explaining why he would want Jesus to die so that others won’t have to, and the author of John is showing that his view is ironic. He will be responsible for Jesus’ death and it will be so other peole won’t die (since by having him executed Caiaphas will makle it possible for jesus to die for the sake of others).
I will confess, I used to believe to myself that Barts de-conversion was a result of his deep study on the origins of Christianity and discovering that what he believed was not words from G~d but from men. I thought that he used the suffering angle as a smokescreen. However after reading more of his work, and being a member of this blog for several years, I realize I was very wrong. Bart is truly sincere and is passionate about using his talents to help those much less fortunate than him. My wife has these same qualities. She abhors suffering of people and animals. She does whatever she can do to contribute to minimizing these sufferings while fully aware she’s not even making a dent. She differs from Bart by believing we live in a ” fallen” world.
I guess one piece of “evidence” that it wasn’t my view of the Bible that led me to become an agnostic is that when I became an agnostic my views of the Bible were what they were when I was a faithful church-going Christian. My views did lead me awa from being a fundamenalist Christian, but that ain’t the same thing….
Poverty and hunger in Mexico, even in the slums of Mexico City, is nowhere near as extreme as in Haiti or in sub-Saharan Africa.