Loading...I will get back to contradictions in my next post. For now, something else has come up. In my two previous posts I’ve mentioned Phil. 1:21, where Paul says, “To live is Christ, to die is gain.” I’ve been asked by several blog-readers about this, and it occurs to me that it might be useful to sketch out one set of reflections on the verse, as I lay it out in one of my side-comments in my textbook on the New Testament. Here is what I say there:
*******************************************************************************************************************
In an intriguing book that discusses suicide and martyrdom in the ancient world (A Noble Death: Suicide and Martyrdom among Christians and Jews in Antiquity. HarperSanFrancisco, 1992) Arthur Droge and James Tabor argue that the modern notion that suicide is a “sin” stems not from the Bible but from the fifth-century Saint Augustine. Prior to Augustine, suicide per se was not condemned by pagans, Jews, and Christians. On the contrary, in certain circumstances it was even advocated as the right and noble thing to do. Indeed, several famous classical authors spoke of self-inflicted death as a “gain” over present afflictions, one that should be accepted joyfully. The protagonist of Sophocles’s play Antigone, for example, says, “if I am going to die before my time, I count it gain. For death is a gain to one whose life, like mine, is full of misery.” She ends up, then taking her own life. So too in a famous passage in Plato’s Apology, Socrates, prior to ending his life by drinking hemlock, reflects that “the state of death is one of two things: either it is virtual nothingness… or it is a change and a migration of the soul from this place to another. And if it is unconsciousness, like sleep in which sleeper does not even dream, death would be a wonderful gain.”
FOR THE REST OF THIS POST, log in as a Member. Click here for membership options. If you don’t belong yet, JOIN ALREADY!!!
In Antiquity, was there a philosophical difference between “taking your own life” and “giving your life in sacrifice for others”? And also, if Paul was talking about just plain suicide, wouldn’t it be hard for Christianity/Church Fathers to explain how come the greatest missionary Paul ended up the same way as Judas?
Yes, they did sometimes make that distinction. And the thing about Judas is that no one ever condemned what he did as sinful (until like the fifth century). His sin was betraying Jesus, not killing himself.
It does look like Paul had some serious issues as he confessed in Romans 7: 14 For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am of the flesh, sold into slavery under sin. 15 I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. 17 But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. 21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do what is good, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God in my inmost self, 23 but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind, making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?
Could this be the result of his repressed sexuality?
Some have argued this. But the passage is in fact very complicated, and it would take a while to unpack. Possibly the dominant view among scholars is that Paul is not actually talking about himself here, but of the “I” who is the “person still under the power of sin” — which would mean the person who had not yet come into the fold and been baptized. Sin prevents this person from doing what s/he knows is right.
“the passage is in fact very complicated, and it would take a while to unpack” (in reference to Romans 7:14-24) — did you ever unpack this, sometime in the intervening 7+ years? I cannot read it any other way than as Paul talking about himself, but as for the previous commenter’s perception that it constitutes “serious issues”, that depends on the intensity and frequency of the inner conflict. Repressed sexuality will certainly increase that (and therein lies a tale), but it is a part of the human condition we all experience at times.
It is widely thought that Paul is referring not to his personal pyschological experience but to the “person under sin.” If you want to see a classic article on the matter, see Krister Stendahl, Paul and the Introspective Conscience of the West; also classic, George Werner Kummel’s article on Romans 7 (I don’t recall the title offhand.)
It’s certainly plausible IMO. There are other verses that imply that Paul has difficulty managing his physical desires. I’ve also read that many scholars think Paul may have been a suppressed homosexual. Your thoughts on that? Sometimes I read Paul and I can’t help but hear echos of modern day insane cult leaders, such as Jim Jones and Marshall Applewhite (though it’s probably the other way around – that they were influeced by Paul). But I see the same kind of thing going on – their desparate desires and delusional diatribes of self-confidence that *they too* are real apostles.
I think it’s very hard to psychoanalyze or psychologically evaluate a person 2000 years later….
I wrote a song or two back in my Christian days that’s relevant to this discussion. One of them was based on Romans 8:23 in the J.B.Phillips translation: “we who have a foretaste of the spirit are in a state of painful tension”, as well as the following verses. I took the “tension” to be the moral conflict between the spirit and the flesh (in Paul’s terms) and the “foretaste” to be like a sample of delicious food that just makes you more hungry now that you know how good it is. We have a little bit of the spirit, Paul says, and that makes us yearn all the more for a lot.
If you have anything to say about that passage I’d be interested in hearing it, but if nothing comes to mind, that’s OK. The J.B.Phillips can be very loose, but it was my favourite translation as a Christian because it is so readable.
My sense is that most scholars (unlike Phillips — who was very loose in his translatinos) understand Paul referring to the apocalyptic drama that was unfolding, not to his inner psyche. Notice he is referring to the creation going through birth pains until the final resurrection of the body at the end of time, which he understood to be near.
I don’t think “suicide” was as much in the mind of early Christians as was “death by proxy” – putting yourself in position to be martyred like Jesus and thus ensure a heavenly afterlife.
Maybe they both were?
A bit of a shocker when I first read this , but it really should not have been . The Classical World ( see especially Seneca and the other Stoics ) strongly support the ” Right To Die ” . Did any of the New Testament writers specifically condemn suicide ?
Nope! Nor Hebrew Bible.
I does seem to be one of those sentiments that is always glossed over and assumed to be understandable in terms of modern religious thinking. But when you place it in the context of a time when suicide was not considered a sin…if that indeed was the case…then Paul’s words take on a whole new meaning. They almost seem to display an intensity of pain and suffering that is so extreme that he is losing his will to go on living.
Is there any indication that the “thorn in the flesh” in 2 Corinthians is related to Paul’s possible desire to die? I can’t remember if 2 Corinthians is one of the actual letters of Paul or it was one of those not actually written by him.
No, there’s not. Though one might suspect that “thorn” was part of what made him long to die.
> And that he rejects that option – not because it was a sin, but because he could still accomplish some good among his followers in Christ?
Yes, that seems to be a reasonable interpretation of his words.
Could he have been contemplating, not taking his own life, but actively seeking “martyrdom”? “Setting an example” (in my opinion, a bad example) for other Christians?
Another thought: You said that when you were young, you found this “life is Christ and death is gain” idea inspiring. I assume you didn’t know then that it might refer to someone’s choosing suicide?
Yes, what I’m arguing is that it was something more than martyrdom, that he was thinking about which to *choose*. And no, when I was a kid, this never occurred to me.
But surely, one can actively CHOOSE martyrdom. Polycarp, for instance (whether his journey to martyrdom was fictionalized or not, being immaterial to my point).
The Hebrew Bible NOT condemning suicide is one thing, Dr. Ehrman, but where in the OT or even NT does someone commit suicide – if any such a verse exists, outside of Judas – and have the act spoken of approvingly of God or a Prophet of God (or ANYONE)? The subject sure is an obscure one, and I’m not at all surprised to read that Augustine’s philosophy played such a strong role in shaping Christian belief on this.
Never. And never condemned either. It was a non-issue.
DR Ehrman:
Paul knew the the sixth commandment, ‘Thou shall not kill or murder’ Therefore I don’t believe Paul would have intentionally committed suicide or allowed Himself to be martyred if he could get out of it.
Question: Is it tradition that Paul was martyred or Historical fact?
To my knowledge the commandment was never applied to killing oneself (just as it wasn’t applied to killing the Canaanites). Yes, probably Paul was martyred.
Would you agree that killing oneself is also murder?
About Killing the Canaanites. Who were the Canaanites? Why did God want them destroyed? Why did God destroy Sodom and Gomorrah? If people are using God’s resources for sin and evil doesn’t God have a right as sovereign Lord to punish evil however He decides to do it? Obama gave the orders to kill Bin Laden. Was He justified to do so? If a person breaks in to your house armed with a gun do you have a right to protect your loved ones and yourself? If the intruder points his gun at you what would you do?
Premeditated murder is different than killing when defending one self.
the sixth commandment is speaking about unjustified killing. If the enemy declares war what are we suppose to do?
It’s not a quesiton of what *I* think about killing oneself. I’m just saying that before Augustine it was generally not understood that self-death was a sin (so they did *not* as a rule see it as illicit murder).
The writer of Ephesians would have disagreed with you DR Ehrman. He lived before Augustine.
Ephesians5:29-for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church,
Isn’t murder the act of killing someone who doesn’t want to be killed? So how could suicide be murder??
Interesting definition! I hadn’t thought of that before (mainly because most people who get killed by someone else are not in favor of it!)
Dr. Ehrman
The CDC estimated that in 2016 over 45,000 Americans died from suicide. I was raised a Roman Catholic and was taught that suicide was a ‘ mortal sin ‘. A sin so egregious that eternal punishment in purgatory awaited anyone who committed such an atrocity against God..
In points 2281 and 2325 of the Catechism it is stated:
2281. Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.
2325. Suicide is seriously contrary to justice, hope, and charity. It is forbidden by the fifth commandment.
Considering this rather heartless view , what was the early Christian view of suicide ? Were they condemned to eternal hell ? Was their soul considered lost forever ? Did the families live in isolation or perhaps even ostracized from the community ?
As always,
Thank you
A member of the blog, James Tabor, has co-authored a very interesting book on just this question, called A Noble Lie. He shows that it is not until Augustine that Christians concluded that suicide was a sin.
Dr. Ehrman some of what Paul says sound like he might be describing that he had epilepsy or something where he could not coordinate his actions.
Yes, htat is sometimes argued. It is often used to explain his visions (during a seizure). My view is that we just don’t have enough evidence to know that kind of thing.
Dr. Ehrman thanks for your response. I was also combining the idea that Paul prayed to end some kinds of affliction and also talks about wanting To do one thing but doing the opposite. I think your answer remains for this also.