Yesterday I was listening to my weekly Misquoting Jesus Podcast (I do that each week to make sure I didn’t make any egregious mistakes in the interview) (I did make a couple, as usual, but so it goes…) and was struck by how, at the end, I described the topic for our next podcast: why “Luke has gotten rid of the idea that ‘Jesus died for your sins.’”
I had forgotten I put it that way, and when I heard it said out loud, head-on and clear-as-day, I realized I had never heard anyone put it that way before. And that struck me as interesting – especially because it is what most of my classmates in my PhD program at Princeton Seminary also were taught and thought but they never said/say it this way.
What did/do they say instead? The said/say what we learned from our teachers, a far more innocuous way of putting it: “Luke doesn’t have a theology of the cross.”
What that means (as my peers and teachers knew) is that Luke does not portray the crucifixion of Jesus as the way of salvation and does not consider Jesus’ death to have brought an atonement for sin. But they wouldn’t ever put it like that way – it sounds offensive, even if people aren’t quite sure what even that actually means.
What would happen if a (bold) preacher made a comment from the pulpit about Luke not having “a theology of the cross”? My guess is that few people would notice, and fewer still would know what it meant, or even fewer what the implications were. Even if they spent a minute thinking about, they still might not be sure. That’s why a preacher, or a theologian, or a budding NT scholar studying for a PhD would put it that way. It sounds a bit strange, but a bit theologically recondite and so not necessarily offensive.
But if they did know what it meant it would be offensive to many people: Luke does not say that Jesus died for your sins and he changes every reference to Jesus dying for your since in his source, Mark, that refers to Jesus dying for your sins.
The one possible exception to that is the saying of Jesus at his last supper (Luke 22:19-20: “this is my body given for you”… “this cup I pour out for you”), but there is a textual variant there: the oldest and best manuscripts don’t have these statements and they appear to represent the original reading. I’ve talked about that on the blog before but it’s been a few years and maybe I’ll repost the relevant discussions.
For now I’ve become interested in how I put it on my podcast and the reality that critical scholars often avoid saying clearly what they mean, apparently because they don’t want to cause offense, leaving their listeners in the dark about what they are actually saying.
I do know that a lot of New Testament and early Christianity scholars think that I’m too blunt in how I put things, and that some think I’m just trying to be offensive. For my part, I don’t see why we shouldn’t simply call a spade a spade or an error an error or a contradiction a contradiction or say what we really mean.
But biblical scholars can be loathe to do that, for understandable reasons. As an example that’s been prominent in my thinking for years now (see my previous two posts!): what would we call a book written by someone who was claiming to be a famous person (when he was someone else)? We’d call it a forgery. So too, if I wrote one — if I wrote a book about the Gospel of John and claimed to be Joel Osteen or a book about American foreign policy and claimed to be Bill Clinton, what would we call me? A forger.
So — what if someone wrote a book and claimed to be Peter, knowing full well he wasn’t? What would we call the book and what would we call the author? The vast majority of New Testament scholars would call the book a pseudepigraphon and the writer an “anonymous author.” Why? Take a wild guess.
I really do get, understand, and agree that it’s a good idea not to offend people unnecessarily. And I have to admit that I myself shudder when I call Ephesians or 1 Peter a “forgery” and its author a “forger.” But, well, those are the words we use for such things. Is it really better to use other words /phrases that are not familiar so as not to give offense?
The typical response from scholars is that “forgery” has negative connotations today that are not appropriate when speaking about literary activities of this sort in the ancient world. But they say that because they’ve heard other scholars say that, not because they’ve actually done the work and looked to see what ancient authors regularly do say about “forgery.”
It’s true ancient authors didn’t use the term “forgery,” but there’s a very good reason for that: they weren’t writing English. The Greek and Latin words for the phenomenon are equally harsh, and the phenomenon is roundly attacked on all sides in ancient writings (if you doubt that, check out my book Forged; if you want the full scoop on it, go to my academic book Forgery and Counterforgery).
My sense that it is simply better to be honest and clear: Luke appears to have “gotten rid of the idea that Jesus died for your sins.” When you put it like that, it seems to me that people will understand almost immediately what you’re claiming, and that is better than using coded language (“Luke doesn’t have a theology of the cross”), the meaning of which – let alone the implications – most people will at best puzzle and many simply won’t understand.
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Much of the time you’re just acting like the kid in The Emperor’s New Clothes – just plainly pointing out things that should be visible to everyone, but they don’t want to think about it or say it. Nothing wrong with that.
I recently found your blog after a frustrating experience with a new pastors sermon. After the 8th week of preaching from 2 Timothy and the way he has portrayed Paul, didn’t set well with me. An internet search lead me to your blog and You Tube material. The very thing I enjoy most, is your very direct approach. Which lead me to dig deeper. The more I dig, the more fascinated I have become. Currently finishing Lost Christianities, I can’t thank you enough for your insight and candor.
Thanks! Welcome to the blog!
Thank you Dr Ehrman. I think the world in general prefers to live a “nice” lie rather than hear the truth.
And they might tell a nice lie to deny it. 🙂
Likewise Bart, don’t you think NT scholars need to stop calling people raised from the dead back to mortality “resuscitations” (e.g., those in 1 Kgs, 2 Kgs, various NT scenes, and Hellenistic traditions)? These aren’t resuscitations (from an almost dead state), they are real “resurrections” from a truly dead state! NT scholarship has co-opted the word “resurrection” to mean raised from the dead back to immortality, but that’s not what that term means, it just means raised from the dead. In truth, Jesus was both resurrected AND made immortal, and one needs to explain why Jesus’ followers thought both of these things about Jesus.
I’d say it’s tricky to come up with words that have the precision the ideas do. The virtue of reserving “resurrection” for the idea that it means “raised to immortality” is that this is what was meant by the idea of the “resurrection of the dead” in apocalyptic Judaism. I actually don’t know too many scholars who use “resuscitation” much, though I do simply to differentiate it from resurrection (to immortality). I suppose we need three words: one for being brought back from near death; one for being brought back from actual death to die again later; and one for brought back from real death never to die again…. (When it’s impossible to have universally agreed on precise words, it’s best, in my view, for each author/speaker to define how she/he is is using the terms they *are* using…)
You wrote, “The virtue of reserving “resurrection” for the idea that it means “raised to immortality” is that this is what was meant by the idea of the “resurrection of the dead” in apocalyptic Judaism.”
I don’t think that’s correct. Some Jewish conceptions of the general resurrection entail God resurrecting the righteous to a mortal life that is just extended a great deal before they die again (1 Enoch 25:4-6, cf. 22:13 at https://wesley.nnu.edu/sermons-essays-books/noncanonical-literature/noncanonical-literature-ot-pseudepigrapha/book-of-enoch/). Some Jewish conceptions of the general resurrection entail God resurrecting everyone back to mortality first before making the righteous immortal and destroying or letting the rest die (1 Enoch 51:1-4 at https://wesley.nnu.edu/sermons-essays-books/noncanonical-literature/noncanonical-literature-ot-pseudepigrapha/book-of-enoch/).
Am I missing something? It looks to me like resurrection and immortalization are two different things, which might change how some things are explained, but the honesty and clarity can only lead to better understanding.
Immortalization and resurrectoin certainly can be different things, of course. (Humans can be immortalized without dying)
One reason it might be important to get the terminology right — “resurrection” only means raised from the dead, not whether or not that resurrected body is mortal or immortal — is because Paul (and earlier Christians) may think Jesus was resurrected to mortality FIRST and THEN made immortal a split second later when he was translated up to heaven. Using the word “resurrection” to mean raised to immortality obscures this possibility because you have already combined the two.
I Cor 15 only describes the final product of the general resurrection — an immortal body — not the MECHANICS of how the body is raised, so Paul could have in mind a general resurrection to mortality FIRST, and THEN the body is made immortal, just like one of the references I gave in my previous post. In fact, 1 Thess 4:16-17 could intend the same thing. And Paul could have believed the same thing about Jesus. How do you know this isn’t actually the case?
I’d say that when it says the resurrected body “is raised in glory” “is raised in power” “is raised a spiritual body” (1 Cor. 15:43-44) it indicates that glory, power, and immortality characterize the body at its raising, not subsequent to its being raised.
Ok, on second thought, I now agree with you that it’s almost certain that Paul thinks the dead will be made immortal SIMULTANEOUSLY with their resurrection at the general resurrection because he says, “in the twinkling of an eye…the dead will be raised imperishable” (1 Cor 15:52).
However, I don’t see anything that would rule out Paul, or Jesus’ earlier disciples, thinking Jesus was resurrected to mortality first and then made immortal when he was translated up to heaven a split second later because they combined two already existing traditions — resurrection back to mortality and translation/immortalization up to heaven. If one uses your definition of “resurrection” for what happened to Jesus, this two-step possibility is ruled out because you have already combined the two.
How do scholars know that Jesus’ followers did not combine the two already existing traditions — resurrection back to mortality and translation/immortalization up to heaven — when trying to make sense of what happened to Jesus?
Yes, I agree we don’t know what Jesus’s first followers thought about it. My guess is that they thought he got raised to earth and then immortalized by being taken up, but it’s just a guess.
That’s fantastic Bart. How long have you held the view that Jesus’ initial followers likely thought Jesus was resurrected to mortality first and then made immortal a split second or seconds later when he was translated up to heaven (a novel combining of these two already existing beliefs)? Do many other scholars hold this view?
I suppose I first started thinking that when I read your last comment. 🙂
Very cool. Glad I could suggest something that may be worthwhile, but I can’t claim credit, I got the idea from another layperson trying to make sense of Christian origins.
On the terminology of resurrection/resuscitation obscuring ideas like this, a scholar by the name of Steven Harris writes, “It is common in biblical and theological scholarship to refer to these events [in 1 Kgs, 2 Kgs, and NT] as ‘resuscitations’ rather than resurrections. On the importance of insisting on resurrection-language and -theology for interpreting these events, see my ‘On the Three Kinds of Resurrection of the Dead,’ International Journal of Systematic Theology 20 (2018): 8–30.”
The above quote comes from Harris’ 2019 article, “Greater Resurrections and a Greater Ascension: Figural Interpretation of Elijah and Jesus.” Journal of Theological Interpretation 13.1: pg. 23 n. 4.
Bart,
At the end of your Jonathan Sheffield debate last night I was the guy who asked you the question why, if a bereavement vision of Jesus led to the resurrection belief, there isn’t a single other report of an ancient/apocalyptic Jew ever concluding a relative was resurrected from the grave (time 2:30-2:31 at https://www.youtube.com/live/GAJsx-NMC7o). You replied you don’t know the answer to this question but wished you did. IMO, the lack of a good answer to this question is pretty devastating to the bereavement vision hypothesis. Do you think it might be worth sprinkling some social-psychological rationalization of Jesus’ death into the equation? I would suggest something like this, and you could throw in a bereavement vision of Jesus anywhere you like: Messiah dies => cognitive dissonance => rationalization that Messiah died for sins and will return soon => rationalization that Messiah was resurrected back to mortality and then translated up to heaven and made immortal (a novel combining of two already existing beliefs) because God would maximally vindicate, reward, and honor his sacrificial Messiah until his return, i.e., this would have reversed Jesus’ unjust death, vindicated his apocalyptic message, and put Jesus in heaven with God in an immortal body which was widely believed superior to a soul-only existence. Why don’t you take this approach? It’s a serious question. You must think it’s on the wrong track in some way. Can you enlighten me?
Yes, I suspected so, as you’ve expressed th eview before. My view is that I can’t explain why Einstein is the only one who came up with the theory of general relativity, but there it is. Just because something happens only once when you would expect it to happen more often doesn’t mean it didn’t happen once. Why was it only Christians who came up with the idea of public hospitals when there were hundreds of religions (thousands) at the time who would have benefited from having done so?
My bereavement vision view is, of course, presisley a socio-psychological explanation.
With respect to yours, couldn’t your objection be raised to it? Why didn’t followers of other killed messianic figures have the same experience of cognitie dissonance?
I’m just trying to help Bart, and I figured you would recognize the question.
In answer to your question to me, yes, the rationalization of Jesus’ death would also be an exception, but there were only about a dozen or two Jewish Messiahs in the centuries surrounding Jesus, so the probabilities are already astronomically better for my hypothesis than your hypothesis which proposes Jesus was an exception out of thousands or millions of bereavement visions. The probabilities for my hypothesis get even better once one realizes Jesus didn’t emphasize military success like many other Jewish Messiahs did, which would have made it easier to rationalize Jesus’ death as part of an intentionally deferred and broader cosmic plan that would be fulfilled later. Even further, social psychologists report that different groups can produce different results based on the availability of movement leaders able to quickly and confidently provide a sufficiently plausible reinterpretation of events, and the presence of in-group social support for the new reinterpretation of events. This difference alone could explain why Jesus’ followers were able to rationalization Jesus’ death but a dozen or two other messiah movements didn’t successfully rationalize their Messiah’s death. Do these arguments have any effect on you or do they just bounce off?
I appreciate all the help you can give me…. I still don’t know why others didn’t start like this — or rather, I don’t know why others have left no evidence of starting like this. But the chances of one starting like this are better, if you’re just thinking in terms of historical probability, than the chances of the laws of nature being broken in a way that never happened before and has never happened since. If you think it’s a “fact” that this is the only group of apocalyptic Jews who had visions of their hoped-for messiah, that would be odd, yes. But most of history is just incredibly unlikely, statistically crazy (what would have been the predictive odds ten years ago (or even 30 minutes ago that I’d be writing this particular message — and only me writing it. Oddes would be incalculable. But it’s not “impossible.” And all highly improbable things are far moe “likely” than things that have never been known to happen, when you’re doing history.
For sure, a one in a million chance that a bereavement vision was understood to mean the deceased was bodily resurrected from the grave up to heaven, and this just happened to occur in a messiah movement, is more probable than a supernatural event, but why accept those odds? A dead Messiah would create cognitive dissonance, which we know can SOMETIMES trigger some pretty radical rationalizations, and there are also good explanations for why the dozen or so other Messiah movements did not rationalize their dead Messiah — the right leader(s) weren’t available, the right in-group social support wasn’t available, and many of the other Messiahs based their movement on their military prowess which got crushed. Your bereavement vision hypothesis would seem a lot more probable, and therefore believable, if you add in cognitive dissonance based rationalization. I don’t know how else to put it to you. Maybe we just solve problems in different ways. Your straight up simple bereavement vision hypothesis is missing something. Thanks for listening. I’m done on this topic unless you ask for more information.
Don’t most Christians today believe both that Jesus’ death brought an atonement for sin and that Jesus died for our sins?
Those are the same thing. A different idea is that God FORGIVES sins, at least the way “forgiveness works when set in contrast to atonement. In that differentiation, if someone realizes they’ve done something wrong, feels regret and remorse, repents and asks God to forgive, he does so with no payment, penalty, or punishment. Tht’s different from saying that Jesus had to die to pay the price for the sins of others or that his death was an “atonement” for the sins of another. THAT view is predicated on the idea that God does NOT forgive only on the basis of repentance, but requires a sacrifice/payment/penalty/punishment of some kind. But yes, definitely, many Christians (including the writers of the NT) use the terms as if they are NOT fundamentally different, as when people say “Jesus die so that God would forgive your sins.” Technically, if he releases a person from the consequences of their sin based on the death of Jesus he is not “forgiving” (foregoing payment or penalty) but “accepting atoneent (a payment or penalty). The issue is actually not which word is used but which concept is being applied. I talk about this at some length iun my forthcoming book Love Thy Stranger.
This raises a question I’d never thought about before. Luke “has gotten rid of the idea that ‘Jesus died for your sins’”. So why is Paul, who “decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified” such a hero to Luke? Can it be that Luke knew stories about Paul but had no clue what he actually thought and taught?
thanks
He either didn’t realize what Paul actually taught (that may seem improbable and surprising, but it’s not su much: most avid readers of Paul don’t really know that he did not teach “forgiveness” for example — but they revere Paul and read him a lot!) or … well, he didn’t agree with him! I assume the former. He knew a good deal about Paul and celebrated his life and witness, but didn’t seem to know his actual theology. (Now that I think about it, the same can be said about most Christians ancient and modern and the teachings of Jesus himself…)
If a reader can be intimately familiar with Paul’s writings and misunderstand him, what about a traveling companion? Don’t we lean on the misrepresentation of Paul in Acts when we discount, for example, the authenticity of the ‘we’ passages?
I don’t think we *start* by discounting the we passages; we acknowledge that the author is claiming to have been Paul’s companion, and then we look to see if it appears that he knew him and his activities and his teachings well. It is indeed very strange that Acts reports numerous speeches of Paul but changes his message from the atoning death of Jesus to the need to repent so God will forgive. Would a close companion of Paul not know his actual message?
Dear Bart,
I read an interesting post today by Michael Bird, alerting his readers to an interesting textual variant in Jude 7 (https://michaelfbird.substack.com/p/jesus-or-lord-in-jude-5-who-led-israel), where NA28/29 now has “Jesus” (Vaticanus and Alexandrinus) instead of “the Lord” (Sinaiticus), who saved the Hebrews from Egypt (!)
I was wondering if you have a preference on what the most likely original reading was?
I must have dealt with it in Orthodox Corruption, but I don’t recall specifically now exactly what I said(33 years later!), and don’t have a copy to hand to check (I’m out of town). There are several variants there, including “Lord” “Jesus” “the God Christ” and “God.” Lord is the best attested and appears to be the form known to Origen (earlier than any of our mss). I’d say it’s most likely that scribes would have changed “kurios” to Jesus or Christ rather than vice versa, since that’s almost always the direction it goes when the evidence is relatively unambiguous.
It would make a great Misquoting Jesus podcast if you explored how gnostic and Mandaean adjacent the Gospel of Luke could be read as, Dr. Ehrman. The crucifixion as a personal soul redemption certainly doesn’t factor into Gnosticism.
Dr. Simo Parpola, one of the world’s most foremost Mesopotamian scholars (so covering place times like the Neo-Babylonian empire and the Antiquarian Revival of Uruk) came out with a book in 2017 where he maps the Substitute King Ritual to the Crucifixion. Why he doesn’t believe Gnosticism that Jesus was being substituted and is not himself The Substitute, idk. I’d have to read the book. But the redeemed in the Substitute King Ritual is typically for a kingdom, not for ‘everybody’.
Gospel of Luke’s use of the words Life (Hayya) and Wisdom (in the Peshitta) seem to plainly read like Gnostic Mandaean rephrasing to me.
Dr. Ehrman,
If you talked over my head, I would not be as interested in what you have to say. It’s because you are clear and direct that I like to listen and read your materials. I appreciate your plain-speak. AND I will also say that never once have I thought your candor was malicious or vindictive. Perhaps the problem with people who are offended by you is not with you, but with them. The hearer is equally responsible for not being easily offended.
Keep doing what you do! You are making a positive impact, certainly not a negative one.
Thanks!!
I completely agree with your take on this, but I must say this seems like a feature, not a bug, in religious teaching. I’m sure you’re familiar with Daniel Dennett and his book Breaking the Spell: Religion as Natural Phenomena. He once gave a very good talk called “The Evolution of Confusion” in which he said, “What theology is is a compilation of ways of not coming clean about the whole enterprise…theologians are religion’s spinmeisters.” The talk can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_9w8JougLQ&t=2179s. The quote is at 29:04.
Yes, Dan believed in saying what he thought!
Don’t many orthodox Christians think to be forgiven you must both repent plus Jesus had to die? Not that these 2 things are exactly the same, but that both are needed.
A related, but not quite the same idea, is the two-fold idea that repentance & atonement don’t stop earthly punishment but do stop eternal punishment.
Yes they do. And they don’t realize that Paul says its one thing and Luke the other!
Did you leave out a “not” in this sentence, Bart?
“What that means (as my peers and teachers knew) is that Luke does not portray the crucifixion of Jesus as the way of salvation and does consider Jesus’ death to have brought an atonement for sin.”
Shouldn’t it read ” . . . and does NOT consider Jesus’ death to have brought an atonement for sin”? Or am I misunderstanding some crucial (pun intended) distinction here?
Ouch. What do you charge by the hour?
Crucial. Nice…
I’m probably more practically cynical because I think more scholars, pastors, religious leaders who know don’t say it for fear of being fired, booted out of evangelical societies/organizations, or simply no longer followed.
I think the explanation is really simple: Critical scholars like to have jobs. Most jobs in Biblical scholarship are connected with churches.
If you say, “Luke doesn’t have a theology of the cross,” then that doesn’t set off alarm bells. Maybe Luke doesn’t have it because he neglected it. After all, church tradition says he was the most naturalistic of the Gospel writers, being the Gentile physician. You can get a stable job paid for by a church.
When you put it, “Luke has gotten rid of the idea that Jesus died for your sins,” then you’re saying he did something deliberately. Luke is splitting from the other Gospel writers on purpose. That’s heresy!
I guess a small part of it is also just tradition. Scholars write for other scholars, using the code words established in that field. Your paper can’t be indexed under “theology of the cross” if you don’t use the proper code words.
Bart…
Just attended Elaine Pagels lecture in Chapel Hill today. She was fantastic. I thought a lot about this post when she was talking. In a number of circumstances she came oh so close to “saying it like she means it” then hedged.
Thank you! I really value how you clearly communicate your point of view.
No need to respond.
Oh, good to know. I wanted to go but couldn’t get there.