Loading...Did Nazareth even exist in Jesus’ day? Or was it invented by the same ancient people who invented the man Jesus – a non-existent home for a non-existent person? So claim many of the “mythicists” I began to discuss in my previous post. Here I continue on the theme, as discussed in my book Did Jesus Exist?
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G. A. Wells advances a different argument to much the same end. In his view the key to understanding the non-existence of Nazareth is in the four occasions in which Mark indicates that Jesus was a “Nazarene” (1:24; 10:47; 14:67; 16:6). According to Wells Mark misunderstood what this meant. What it originally meant was that Jesus belonged to a pre-Christian Jewish sect called the “Nazarenes” who were similar to figures from the Old Testament (like strong-man Samson) called Nazirites who took vows to be specially set apart for God (they couldn’t touch corpses, drink wine, or cut their hair). Mark didn’t know this, though, and wrongly assumed that the term Nazarene must have indicated Jesus’ place of origin, and so made up “Nazareth” as his hometown. [1]
Once again one looks in vain for any evidence to support this view, let alone clear logic: why would Mark invent a town that didn’t exist to explain how Jesus could be a Nazarene, when what the term originally meant was that he was a Nazirite? Moreover, Mark must have known the Old Testament. He does quote it on a number of occasions. Why wouldn’t he know what a Nazirite was? And if the sectarians that Jesus associated with were Nazirites, why did they call themselves, instead, Nazarenes (which is not etymologically related). Moreover, it should be stressed that there are multiple traditions about Nazareth (Mark, M, L, John). It was not
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I mean, people don’t usually make fiction completely out of thin air, even in the modern day. I figured that out when my ex made me a cool Star Trek character (a composite, but he loved discussing “my characteristics” and, surprise.)
Archaeologists say they found Nazareth — with rebel *tunnels*, that word that New Testament enthusiasts might underdiscuss.
NZR being a branch is echoed in the gJohn story, where Jesus is handed a hyssop (David symbol) NZR with a sponge on it right after he is offered a *cup* to drink from. That’s your tell pikuach nefesh might be involved, and they are signaling a safe survival to other knowing people.
I was reading about recent analysis of what Nazareth was like in the time of Jesus. Evidently, the community was so extremely in observance of the “law” as to suggest its inhabitants were trying to adhere to the purity demands of the Essenes. I’ve recently been fascinated by James Tabor’s association of phrases in Dead Sea Scrolls texts with phrases in Paul’s letters and things Jesus allegedly said.
Well, I admit I was once an adherent of Edgar Cayce’s group that believed that Jesus was raised by Essenes (before I became a “Moonie” in my early 20s). The idea is that Jesus broke off from the Essenes and introduced new ideas. What do you think about Jesus possibly having been influenced by Essene beliefs? Could Nazareth have been an Essene outpost?
I’ve always hoped Dr.
Ehrman could text-check Cayce, too!
I use Cayce’s readings to inspire googling – my rare yogi name (given to me by a Sufi community), my birthdate (the ARE are looking for the birthdate as evidence of her reincarnation) and other specifics match Cayce’s sister in that lifetime and the First Century.
In Cayce’s First Century, he’s the author of gLuke. Their co-traveling and her credibility suggest that she’s his female influence — gLuke has famously female concerns.
In Cayce lore, the Mt. Carmel Essenes are what Jesus’ mother and Joseph belong to. Ancient authors categorize Essenes as well-read, comfortable manual laborers. Yeah, I was rooting for rags-to-riches Jesus too, but it may be more like a The North Face-to-riches story.
To update Cayce’s language, this small group entered “the Simulation” to tell those inside it. Jesus is first to master it. It was never meant to be secret, just that focus into timespace can reduce a wider awareness.
When I first saw the possible match — eh. Modern channelers have taught me to be future-forward.
Cayce caught my attention with mentioning Arabs, but now I think he didn’t have the access to fully explain the Essene’s Transjordan service to Aramean-rebooted Nabataea.
Serene, William–I’m afraid Jesus as Essene just flies in the face of known history. Check out Dan MacClellan’s video on the topic: https://youtu.be/u7BYLi1sNfg?si=4nxMkSZC5YvL85Ja
Hi Diane!
Checking it out now —
So, what religion do you think that the secret son of a servant to one of the most powerful men in the world would practice?
I’m not talking about Jesus — I’m talking about Gov Schwarzenegger’s secret son with his Central American-heritage servant. If you want piousness, and expectations of purity, and caution about mixing with folks in the next town, try backcountry Lat Am. (Lived there.)
It’s a decent paralell — Jesus’s father had a kingdom. And kings become governors in the western empire, and CA was the 6th largest economy in the world.
And Joseph Baena says he parties like his dad. (I had a friend that would go to Arnold Schwarzenegger’s parties). Could Jesus also have different behaviors than a less-advantaged community of people that would listen to him because of his father?
•I mention servants because Mary calls herself a doulē
•The Essene Qumran sect serves a yearly nomadic (I read Arab) festival. They have ~4,000 serving dishes. Their coin stashes were part of Nabataea’s, so I’m assuming it’s the wealthy people paying.
Doulē seems like an Arab “joy” contract — a nikah mutah. And now I know more about Tractate Ketubot 3b –
Ofc, it codifies the right of a foreign official to have intercourse with an *engaged* Jewish virgin. But who requested it? Aramean Arabs.
https://people.com/all-about-arnold-schwarzenegger-son-joseph-baena-7560875#:~:text=Mildred%20welcomed%20her%20son%20Joseph,and%20began%20to%20resemble%20him.
I’ve dealt with Jesus as potentially an Essene at greater length on the blog before, but here I’ll just say briefly that I think it highly implausible. His entire mission runs precisely contrary to that of the Essenes, who sought to maintain personal and communal purity by separating themselves off from the rest of Jewish society; Jesus mission was to sinners with whom he congregated, not to preserve purely but to urge them to repent morally. The one thing that connected Jesus and the Essenes was their apocalyptic views in general, but these were held by lots of Jews at the time, including Pharisees! (Thought I’ll admit, it’s a lot sexier to say that Jesus was connected with the Dead Sea Scrolls! I too wish history were a lot sexier!)
Hi Dr. Ehrman, you know I like a good Essene convo, and I like that you’re engaging more on it!
As you already know, I believe Jesus’ mother was Essene — and his biological father the Nabataean divinized king of the healing god Obodas Theos on Judaea’s border, with much less proscriptive customs.
Wasn’t sinner re-translated to rebel? I think Jesus is hanging with the Itureans, the brigands/sinners/rebels displaced from their homeland in Galilee in 20 BCE by (Edomite) Herod the Great. Itureans have a modified-Nabataean Aramaic script, they are on Team Nabataea in the war.
During Jesus’ mission, there’s the Galilee-Nabataea war Josephus discusses (apocalyptic views = regime change). “Repent” means, “Submit to my dad’s theocracy that has the *real* Abrahamic customs” — and Herod Phillips’ people do! Galileans loyal to Galilee’s Queen Phaesalis (Nabataean Arab who returned South), of whom Jesus says, “The Queen of the South will sit in judgement on y’all”, help The Kingdom of the Heavens win.
My theory is just that Jesus is the son of a doulē in a nikah mutah “joy” contract to produce a Davidic heir for the neo-Aramean confederacy that Nabataea runs.
Dear Bart. In the hypothetical case of you deciding, at some point, that you still wanted to believe in God and the afterlife, without denying your scholarship and the fruits of your truth-seeking, I think we could safely say that the following would have fallen by the wayside: the inerancy of scripture (!) the virgin birth, the Johanine incarnation account, the deity of Jesus, the sinless perfection of Jesus, the physical bodily resurrection of Jesus, the belief that Jesus knew his destiny, a lot of the miracles (?all), ….. What would be left to cobble together? A spiritual resurrection? (ie multiple appearances of a *spiritual body* (1Cor 15:44) to multiple people?). A divine plan not known to Jesus (at least until late in the day) for his life & death, not withstanding the idea that he was initially labouring under the misapprehension of an apocalyptic coming kingdom of God on Earth in his lifetime? Maybe some kind of redemptive purpose (even if just symbolic) in his death without invoking full-blown substitutionary atonement? And your current interest: moral teaching of central importance? even if not unique in the history of the humanity?
Merry Christmas
Probably a sense of mystery and the possibility of something beyond the natural world since the Big Bang that Christianity encompasses about as well as I can imagine….
I like that answer as far as I can understand it. I think a sense of mystery, combined with a sense of awe and a deep curiosity all seem to feel ‘right’ and are by no means limited to theists – in fact many theists seem to think they have it all worked out.
Yup. I’d return to the church with that, conceivably at least, since that’s the version of connecting with the awe and mystery of the universe (outside of science) that I resonate with, having grown up with it. Was at a funeral service for a good friend yesterday at an Episcopal church, and found it deeply moving, even though I didn’t believe any of it.
I have an off topic question concerning Christmas and Bethlehem altogether fitting for Christmas Eve. It is my understanding that Luke and Mathew believed that the Hebrew Scriptures required the Messiah 2 be born in Bethlehem. And miraculously in fulfilment of the Scriptures, Jesus of Nazareth is born in Bethlehem. Almost all Christians accept Mathew and Luke’s Bethlehem assertion. It is also my understanding that many Jews 2day reject the notion that the Hebrew Scriptures require a Bethlehem nativity for the Messiah. Dr. Bart, do u know if Jews at the time of Christ commonly believed that the Messiah had 2 be born in Bethlehem?
No, it’s a Christian idea, based on Micah 5:2. We don’t have any indication that prior to Christianity anyone saw it as a prediction of the messiah. (Luke, by the way, doesn’t say that Jesus was to be born there to fulfill Scripture; that’s only in Matthew. Luke has him born there without explaining why it was “necessary” or a “fulfillment”)
B: “No, it’s a Christian idea, based on Micah 5:2. We don’t have any indication that prior to Christianity anyone saw it as a prediction of the messiah.”
If it is pretty certain that Jesus was from Nazareth and if that passage of Micah wasn’t interpreted as Messianic prior to Christianity:
Q: Why did early Christians wanted to read that passage as a prophecy of Jesus’ birthplace? Now they had to relocate his birthplace as well as re-interpret Scripture. Both seem to be unconvincing to Jews, I can imagine.
After Jesus’ death his followers searched the Scriptures for references to him to support their beliefs in him. These Scripture “proofs” were almost certainly compelling to insiders but not to outsiders. Most Jews simply didn’t find them convincing. But they serious buttressed the faith of Christians themselves, and still do.
Speaking of mythicists. I caught your interview with John Gleason or Godless Engineer on the historicity of the crucifixion. I got the impression during the interview that you were unfamiliar with John’s mythicism and that maybe he brought you on without being fully transparent with you.
If you don’t mind me asking, were you aware he was a mythicist with close ties to Carrier?
Nope, probably not. But most people who invite me for an interview don’t tell me about their personal views in advance. I don’t actually remember that interview, but I wouldn’t be suprised if I came off as a bit frustrated and aggravated if he pushed me on it!
Hi Bart
I notice you dont refer to any of the recent archaeological evidence for the existence of 1st century Nazareth such as this
https://biblearchaeologyreport.com/2018/08/09/did-first-century-nazareth-exist/#:~:text=While%20there%20once%20was%20a,devout%20Jews%20of%20modest%20means.
Is this evidence alone sufficient to imply it is at least likely or probable that Nazareth did exist during Jesus time ?
I didn’t refer to that finding because it showed up a few years after I wrote my book, but I do cite the archaeologist and the same basic info about Nazareth that we knew before this find.