I have become deeply interested in the question of whether Jesus thought that people should be considered equally and treated as equals, and that has led to my ponderings on Jesus’ view of the afterlife for those who are “saved.” Will everyone in the future kingdom of God be treated equally? That made me reflect on the fact that there is a longstanding view within the Christian tradition that says: definitely not.
This view of differentiated afterlives is portrayed most emphatically in one of the most popular and influential portrayals of the realms of the blessed and the damned referenced in my previous post, the Apocalypse of Paul. This is a fictional narrative of a personal tour granted to the apostle, which attempts to explain Paul’s claim in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 that he was taken up to “the third heaven” and shown things that he is not to reveal. The fourth or fifth century author of the Apocalypse of Paul, claiming himself to be Paul, decided to reveal what “he” (allegedly Paul) actually saw. That runs precisely contrary to what Paul says he was allowed to do, but ages of Christians were pleased that he brought himself to do so any way. The book was widely read in the Middle Ages and influenced the great Dante himself.
As I indicated in my previous post, one of its obvious sources was the
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I still wonder how it is that many Christians who advocate a religion of love seem to delight in the vision of “sinners” being in terrible torment forever. Especially when Jesus taught no such thing and instead warned us to consider our own sins as logs while the sins of others are specks. Do they think their theology is so weak that they have to scare people into obedience?
A lot of these same people don’t seem to mind the horrible violence done to sinners even now. That’s another one I don’t “get.” Except intellectually — that they think they have the truth, those who don’t are opposed to God and infectiously harmful to humans, and so deserve what they get. Most of the hell-talk today is by folk who feel that way: God is just and needs to punish those opposed to him to maintain his justice, and thank God I’m not one of them but they deserve eternal torment for not believing. That said, as you point out, fire and brimstone has always been an effective evangelistic tool from the earliest days of the religion. And, good point, there may be some confidence-building involved as well (also attestedin early sources)…
“…and girls who lost their virginity outside of marriage.”
No mention of the boy she lost it with?
Nope. So typical of ancient texts. And, well, modern ones too.
Hey Dr Ehrman unrelated question finished your introduction to New Testament textbook a couple months ago and my pastor wanted to gift me Donald Guthrie intro to New Testament textbook. Is it worth the read or is he a fundamentalist I should avoid? I want good scholarship? Thank you!
He was a prominent, British evangelical scholar who taught in the U.S. His Introductoin was written 56 years ago now, and represents solid evengelical Christian views from that time — so, both dated by the era and fully consistent with evangelical beliefs/commitments. But he was highly respected in those circles. Reading it would do no harm! The best thing to do would be to compare his views/claims/evidence/arguments with what you find in more recent scholarship from a different (or no real) religious perspective.
“Treated equally” can mean either “all treated the same” or “all treated by the same standard.” Reserving rewards for the most virtuous believes is consistent with the latter.
Those who promote the dogma “once saved, always saved” advocate a multi-tiered heavenly experience. Some call the rewards for meritorious service crowns. If one lapses or backslides into sin, the consequences will be the loss of crowns earned and the loss of prestige in the heavenly community. Salvation is never lost, just downgraded. I thought about that when my wife and I planned our UK trip. Because we are “seniors” United upgraded our seats for free. It made me wonder what good works I could do between now and deathday to upgrade my heavenly experience. Do you have any suggestions?
Jesus’ own advice is to give to the poor and needy.
That’s a great answer. My question, of course, was facetious. In all my years as a Christian, I’ve never believed in or cared about heavenly rewards or tiers. But seriously, I will do that.
Dr. Bart Ehrman,
I found this:
“Celsus argued in The True Word (Alēthēs Logos), preserved in Origen’s Against Celsus, that Jewish religion represented a departure from, and distortion of, an ancient religious tradition shared by other peoples, including the Greeks. He compared Jewish beliefs and practices with older traditions of worship and mystery cults, challenging the Jews’ claim to religious originality.” There is a comparison of Sukkot to the Thesmophoria of Ancient Greece.
Have you posted about anything in Origen’s Against Celsus. I’m interested in this. Administrators and members of the forum have reached their limits, so I thought with your background, and for reason, you are no longer a Christian, you would have a scholarly opinion on Celsus’ arguments.
Any thoughts?
Thank you.
Years ago Joseph Hoffman published an editoin of The True Word taken from Origen’s refuttaion, in which he didn’t include the refutation, just the things Celsus said. In many instances, it struck me that Celsus’s argument was strong than (what I new was) Origen’s response.
Thank you Dr. Ehrman. Joseph Hoffman in 1987 did an excellent job given reviews like these two:
“A great contribution to scholarship in the study of early Christianity. The general introduction is worth the price of the book, and to have this new translation of the ancient work of Celsus is most useful and valuable.”
–J. William Angell, Wake Forest University
“Every serious student of early Christianity should give attention to Celsus….A first-rate publication with excellent, comprehensive introduction and notes.“
–Sterling M. McMurrin, University of Utah
Steve Campbell
Author of Historical Accuracy (2021)
If the gospels were written after Paul’s letters, why do any of the gospels not quote him or other epistle writers?
Because they are telling stories about what Jesus said and did, not about what later authors wrote about, and Paul was writing about other things.
A quote from Einstein. “If people are good only because they fear punishment and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.”
The question of equality is interesting in the bible. Is Jesus equal to God? Does Jesus make his followers equal to himself (as his brothers and sisters) at some point? Other things like that.
I keep thinking of people when they have a baby. The baby can’t do much of anything. ‘E can’t even burp or roll over by ’emself. But people still consider ’em their equal. Some parents even treat the baby as better and more wonderful than themselves.
This is a different kind of equality than that described for heaven. But still, what does equality mean in this sense or in every sense of the word?
Different things in different places I suppose.
Lately I’ve been fascinated by “Songs of the Sabbath Sacrifice.” It depicts heavenly worship with angelic orders and elaborate hierarchies of divine beings. Some scholars suggest earthly worshippers, through this liturgy, participated in angelic praise and shared aspects of angelic status.
This parallels with Hebrews 12:22–24. The author tells believers, “You have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,” and to the assembly of innumerable angels. Though still on earth, theyre described as having access to heavenly gatherings. Both texts suggest earthly existence and heavenly participation aren’t mutually exclusive.
I’d love your perspective on “Ascension of Isaiah”, which also presents an explicit hierarchy of heavenly realms. But this text appears to envision the righteous ultimately sharing in the glory of the highest-(7th) heaven.
Tertullian offers fascinating perspective. He understood the dead to await resurrection in Hades, but considered martyrs an exception-they enter Paradise immediately (“the sole key to unlock Paradise is your own life’s blood”) 😳 In On the Resurrection of the Flesh, he interprets Paul’s imagery in 1 Cor. 15:40–42 as suggesting differing degrees of glory and dignity (but not substance) among the resurrected.
Yes, the Ascension of Isaiah is a terrific book. It uses the Gnostic notion of passwords to get through the various levels to ascend to the realm above.
Do you have a recommendation for an excellent book on Celsus?
I’m afraid the best one is in German and I don’t think it’s been translated (C. Andresen, Logos und Nomos; old but terrific); maybe the best place to start would be the introductoin to the standard English translation by Henry Chadwick?