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Loading...As often happens at this time of year, I have been thinking about how much I have in common with people who consider themselves committed Christians. A couple of events have recently happened that have made me more reflective about the common values I share with progressive people of faith (I’m leaving fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals out of the equation just now). I’ll talk about one of them here. It happened during my recent trip to South Africa (which ended just yesterday).
Sarah and I decided to take two weeks off to go there, just for fun, no work involved. Incredibly, as much as we travel, we haven’t had two weeks alone together for fifteen years. The trip was amazing, between all of the things to see and do in Cape Town, to the scenic drive through the Garden Route, to the game drives/safaris we took up near Kruger National Park (a game reserve the size of Israel!).
A friend of ours helped us set up the trip; she had been to South Africa a number of times and for years had arranged the study abroad programs at UNC. So she was accustomed to setting up itineraries and working out arrangements, something that I’ve never much enjoyed doing myself. Among many, many other things, she arranged for us to have dinner with a very interesting Anglican clergyman who had been the personal chaplain of Desmond Tutu back in the 90s.
This fellow was, and is, of course, a very dedicated Christian priest. But he had almost no interest in discussing theology, or the Bible, or beliefs, or doctrines, or anything of the sort. He is, and always has been, far more interested in issues of justice and truth; he focuses most of his mental and personal energies on social and political issues. He was active in the anti-apartheid movement, and continues to be deeply involved in issues involving racial inequality, poverty, and peace. Those are issues that I too am deeply interested in. I have far more common ground with someone like him than with some of my agnostic, secular humanist friends, who, frankly, are not all that invested in dealing with problems that confront us as social communities and simply as human beings.
At our dinner he told us that Desmond Tutu ….
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Most Christians are not as good as Bishop Tutu, because most people are not. Genuine altruism is a rare trait–perhaps that’s because it’s an evolutionary disadvantage. Perhaps that’s too simple an answer.
Christianity succeeded in the old Roman Empire because it promoted a better way–it helped the poor, said all men and women were brothers and sisters, rejected many of the corrupt values that Rome embodied–but over time, those values took hold in Christiantiy, and corrupted it–as they would have corrupted any belief system, theistic or otherwise.
Christianity isn’t the source of the evil in us, but an imperfect system of combatting it. We’ve yet to come up with a system that can make us stop being selfish and prejudiced, because these are inherent parts of our nature. We would be this way if no religion had ever existed. All religions were created, in part, to combat this part of ourselves, this selfish fearful animal that still lives in us, but much worse than the other animals, because of our overly complex brains–we’re stuck between two modes of being, in a sense. And of course there’s far too many of us on this planet.
I really doubt there’d be any civilization at all, any morality, any attempt to be better, if it wasn’t for religion. But in saying that, I don’t think atheists are immoral–they simply translate the values created by religion into a secular form. And make their own non-theistic religions. That being said, I’ve met some truly horrible atheists, and I know you have too.
I do wonder what the world would look like without any attempt to believe in some higher good.
Hopefully I won’t live that long.
I think that you may have this part backwards: “I don’t think atheists are immoral–they simply translate the values created by religion into a secular form.”
I find it closer to the truth to state that the values that are stated on any given page originate from us and are then woven into a given text in order to make a point or to persuade the reader toward a desired direction.
I don’t think you are contradicting anything I said–but those values didn’t originate from us until we started believing in something higher than ourselves.
I do think there are forms of altruism in nature–mainly in birds and mammals–there’s been serious study of this. Life can sometimes want to help other life for its own sake. But the more common reaction is for each organism to put its own short-term survival (and that of its genes) first. Which is fine, as long as you’ve got an even playing field in the evolutionary sweepstakes, but man probably developed tools before he developed a religious sense. Even our closest relative, the Common Chimpanzee, wages war against others of its kind.
Whether we’ll always need a God to believe in is a matter of debate, but I don’t think there’s any debate that without that belief, we’d have been entirely dominated by our worst impulses. Not struggling against them, trying to bring them under control, by various means.
Religion always begins as an expression of our highest aspirations, but as a new religion becomes powerful, the worst people will inevitably seize onto it as a means of getting power over others.
And that would be true of non-theistic systems as well, and we’ve already seen that happen. To horrifying effect.
As I said, God is not the problem–we are. Unless you believe there is a God who created us all, and would therefore deserve the credit for both our good and evil impulses.
But that leaves us with the problem of choice. Would we have preferred to have none?
Maybe we’re a problem that has no solution. Even for God.
Merry Christmas. 😉
I agree entirely. Hope you and yours have a Happy and Peaceful Christmas.
“Good” and “Bad” people don’t appear to be constrained to certain groups or religions (or lack of one) and it’s always wrong to stereotype those things. Fundamentalists, whether Christian, Muslim or whatever tend to judge others by doctrine. In the Bible Belt you hear a lot about God doing this or that, but rather than miracles I see people motivated to do good things because of their BELIEF, whether their god actually exists or not. Religion has certainly had its bad side through history but it can also have good ones. As you point out (and my problem) in recent history it’s usually the fundamentalist mentality and insistence that others conform to their views that bring the main problems.
Thank you Dr. Ehrman. I think of my friends who take 2 weeks off from their lives to go built water wells in Honduras, or in South Sudan. There’s something noble in such a gesture; first taking the time to learn of the hardships of others, and then finding ways to alleviate them and help people they don’t even know.
I was searching in Google for “Church of Atheism Houston” out of curiosity, and did find a good organization called Oasis Houston. Founded by a former pastor, they are trying to fill the vacuum left for those who choose not to believe in Christianity but still need community. But in general, it seems atheists are pretty far behind in group charity. I’m sure there are probably some churches who are accepting of those who want to be in their community, even as non-believers. It may be awkward though. I haven’t “come out” yet publicly as a non-believer, so I can’t say what it would be like.
I’m glad you had that experience of meeting Desmond Tutu. It’s a rare chance to meet an elderly hero before they pass away. I was given front row tickets to see Tito Puente, famed percussionist and composer of Oye Como Va among many other songs, and it turned out to be his last time to appear in Houston before his death. I’ll never forget it though.
He told the story of people always wanting to hear that Santana song Oye Como Va and he rolled his eyes. Nobody knew it was his own song after Santana made it so famous. But after he received his first royalty checks in the mail he jokes “I’ll play Santana all night long.”
Very well put.
Great article. Makes me think.
I absolutely agree that Bishop Desmond Tutu is a man working exceptionally hard to make the lives of his fellow humans better. As a Christian he clearly experiences a calling to serve, yet from the same source many other people get a completely different calling, like the ones you mentioned. Christians are not a single unified group, but their source of belief can be use so broadly as a reason for both help and harm.
To my eyes Bishop Tutu is a Christian Humanist. His goal is to use our human abilities to better the world, regardless of the doctrine he believes. Those who choose to do evil justify their choices with ease using the very same source. They may have nothing in common in what they do or say, yet somehow they still get claim common cause through the Bible.
There are plenty of non-believers who work hand-in-hand with Christian to fight the injustices of the world. We just get so frustrated when their fellow Christians are the ones causing them. I think the amazing and selfless Christians, like Bishop Tutu, would continue their work even if they stopped believing, but those who hurt and oppress would struggle to find a reason to continue. (They would eventually find one, I’m sure, since we humans have plenty of reasons to hurt each other. Our invented gods just gave us more.)
Great reflection Bart! Make me want to strive for a better vision of my personal faith
Good post!
I have regarded myself for the last 40-odd years (when I think of it at all) as Church of England agnostic. Why? Because I like the ‘Broad-church’ non-doctrinaire, non-judgmental approach of late Anglicanism. It allows for all strands, from Anglo-catholic traditionalists to the modernist wing’s welcoming of female bishops. I also like the music, art and architecture it has inspired. It encourages good works without judging, which helps not only the recipient but also, perhaps especially, the giver. Like you, I don’t buy either the historical basis or the sometimes bizarre metaphysics of Christianity but I think it has many good things to offer the world, not least people like Desmond Tutu.
A couple of thoughts: without the Christian church in early mediaeval Europe, there would be no Geneva convention – were the ‘Rules of war’ originally a church-led initiative based on the teachings of Christ? and; without the Reformation, there would be no ‘Age of Reason’ and, therefore, no subsequent ‘Enlightenment.’ Discuss.
Yes, without the church things would have been inestimably different. Worse? Better? No way to know!
Indeed! I have debated with the humanist philosopher A.C.Grayling on this subject. He strongly believes that we would have had the Enlightenment 1,500 years earlier if it were’t for the pernicious dominance of the Church. How did he know, I asked. Answer came there none.
I want to see the photo! Tutu is a very incredible man.
Thank you for posting. This is the best thing I have read this Christmas season. How wonderful the world would be if only Christians (and others) could take this to heart.
It would be interesting if you tell us how you think their religion affects these priests. The things you describe: being open-minded, having a good sense of humour, the concern about social problems: how do they follow from the religion? Is there anything else to the religion?
My view is that their religious commitments did not make them the good people they are; it is the context within which their goodness can be manifest. (The religion of course is highly complex and involves thousands of things!)
Are you saying that one’s beliefs or commitments have no effect on their actions?Repenting from a selfish, judgemental way of behaving and committing to serve others as Jesus commanded would not make a bad person a good person?
No, I’m not saying that at all. But beliefs obviously don’t make people moral. There are millions of highly immoral people who have beliefs pretty much like Desmond Tutu’s!
Merry Christmas, Bart.
You make some great points Bart, but I still don’t see it the way you do. I think it’s much simpler than that. Of course there’s some “Great Christians whose faith has propelled them to work to implement the social values that we too embrace, who do a world of good for others – not just those who agree with them theologically, but those who are in need, because of poverty, oppression, and social injustice” but why be so specific? There are also great Hindu, Muslim, Humanist and I’m sure even some great Pagan’s who all do their very best for humanity too.
I don’t think the “Great Christians” **faith*** has anything to do with their actions. I think that will all like to **think** it’s their faith, but really it’s simple – some people are good, some people are bad, some people are really, really good and some folks are really, really bad. It has nothing to do with their “faith” – as is very clear from the broad range of humanism in this world. Bill Gates has no faith whatsoever in any ancient story book and look at what he’s done for his fellow humans – with no excuse that “God is commanding him to love others” or turning to the old excuse of “great faith”.
“Good” people will use whatever they know (i.e. Jesus, Muhammad, Marx etc) to do what they naturally do – help others. “Bad” people will use whatever they know (i.e. Bible, Koran, Darwin) to do what they naturally do – hurt and abuse others.
I’m not disagreeing with this. I certainly don’t think that Christians are the only ones who are good!!! I’m just saying that some Christians are. It is not their Christianity that *makes* them good, in my opinion; Christianity is the context within which their goodness comes to be manifest.
If god acted more like Desmond Tutu, if would give me pause to believe in god’s existence.
Yes Tutu is a great humanitarian. However the Truth and Reconciliation Commission left a lot to be desired. Political Theatre that did little to heal the past.
Glad you enjoyed your trip. I spent over 40 years in Cape Town but happy now to have left it all
behind.
I don’t think there is anything intrinsic to Christianity that contributes to a humanitarian outlook. Religion is just a handy vehicle that accommodates that disposition.
Was Mandela a humanitarian? Lots of people would say no. But Mandela freed his people from oppression. Perhaps humanitarianism is not just about the every day hero as in Tutu. Perhaps it also has space for an epic hero after the nature of a Mandela.
I agree with everything you say here, and think it’s wonderful…except for one thing. Saying that people like Desmond Tutu are “true followers of Christ.” They may have created a version of “Christianity” that really is outstanding…worthy of all kinds of superlatives. But it doesn’t seem to me that “Christ” himself – the actual person – stood for anything that noble.
Yes, I completely agree. (I had an argument with Tutu’s former chaplain on just this point!)
The historical Jesus, if he could return now, would find the Christ of the church unrecognisable as himself, I suspect. And perhaps not someone he would endorse. He would probably be just as amazed that we are all still here and apparently thriving!
Happy Christmas to you and to everyone here for helping to make the past year such an interesting one.
I believe we would all like to hear the details of this argument, Bart!
Ha! It probably won’t happen….
The question I have is, is it really Tutu’s faith in Jesus’ resurrection and Lordship that has propelled him to work to implement the social values, or his own love and compassion for humanity?
I’d say his love and compassion are manifest in the context of the Christian message that he adheres to.
I’m glad you enjoyed your stay in my country! I live about 30 minutes drive from Cape Town in a little town called Gordon’s Bay. I work in Cape Town. I haven’t met Desmond Tutu myself, most South African’s haven’t, but I am proud to be associated with even, even if it is only that we are both citizens of this beautiful country.
Lucky you! What a great place. What a beautiful country indeed! We spent a few days at a private reserve near Kruger. Phenomenal.
Wow! What an opportunity for your wife and you. Thanks for sharing.
Hi Bart, I am from South Africa, I would loved to have met up with you, but I suppose that would not have been easily arranged, but nonetheless it would have been awesome to meet you in person. Next time let us know if you are coming.
People are complex, and religions as internally diverse as their adherents. I’ve been everything on the Christian spectrum from Roman Catholic to conservative evangelical to fundamentalist to progressive. Now I’m a Humanist. Quite a ride, and I still consider myself “Protestant” (I explained that here: http://adamgonnerman.net/post/136038551648/being-protestant-late-one-evening-shortly-after).
In all my experiences I’ve found people in every category of thinking that are good and kind, as well as some who are harsh and even abusive. No one group has a corner on human decency, though we tend to demonize those who differ with us most.
That said, the world does indeed need more people willing to stand up and act for a better world. No doubt.
Thanks Bart, your post prompted me to buy Desmond Tutu’s 2011 book “God Is Not a Christian.” … Sure enough, on p. 44, he says “We shall be surprised at those we meet in heaven whom we least expected to be there, and perhaps also by those we do not find there whom we expected to be there.” … In 2009, President Obama selected Tutu as one of that year’s recipients of the Presidential Medal of Freedom, America’s highest civilian honor.
Speaking of Africa:
1) Is there any evidence that Christianity entered sub-Saharan Africa or West Africa before the fall of the Roman Empire?
2) Mary, Peter and Paul *seeing something they believed* to be Jesus vs saying *they claimed* to Jesus. What’s your historical view? They wouldn’t claim to see Jesus for no reason…especially if it would get them persecuted. The 3 of them must’ve seen “something”.
1. I don’t know; 2. We know for certain that Paul claimed to see Jesus; it seems likely that both Mary and Peter did as well. I think they probably did see something. And they thought that something was Jesus.