One question I repeatedly get asked is about my opinion on whether the town of Nazareth actually existed. I was puzzled when I started getting emails on this, some years ago now. What I came to realize is that mythicists (i.e., those who think that there never was a man Jesus; he was invented, a “myth”) commonly argue that Nazareth (like Jesus) was completely made up.
I still get the emails today – a couple within the past month. I tried to deal with this issue at length in my book Did Jesus Exist? But since I get asked the question still, apparently by people who haven’t read my book (!) – I thought I would repeat some of what I say there. Here is an excerpt on the issue:
Did Nazareth Exist – Jesus’ Hometown
One supposedly legendary feature of the Gospels commonly discussed by mythicists is that the alleged hometown of Jesus, Nazareth did not exist but is itself a myth. The logic of this argument, which is sometimes advanced with considerable vehemence and force, appears to be that if Christians made up Jesus’ hometown, they probably made him up as well.
I could dispose of this argument fairly easily by pointing out that it is irrelevant. If Jesus existed, as the evidence suggests, but Nazareth did not, as this assertion claims, then he merely came from somewhere else. Whether Barack Obama was born in the U.S. or not (for what it is worth, he was) is irrelevant to the question of whether he was born.
Mythicists: Does Nazareth Still Exist?
Since, however, this argument is so widely favored among mythicists, I want to give it a further look and deeper exploration. The most recent critic to dispute the existence of Nazareth is René Salm, who has devoted an entire book to the question, called The Myth of Nazareth.
Salm sees this issue as highly significant and relevant to the question of the historicity of Jesus: “Upon that determination [i.e., the existence of Nazareth] depends a great deal, perhaps even the entire edifice of Christendom.” Like so many mythicists before him, Salm emphasizes what scholars have long known: Nazareth is never mentioned in the Hebrew Bible, in the writings of Josephus, or in the Talmud.
It first shows up in the Gospels. Salm is also impressed by the fact that the early generations of Christians did not seek out the place, but rather ignored it and seemed not to know where it was (this is actually hard to show; how would we know this about “every” early Christian, unless all of them left us writings and told us everything they knew and did?).
Nazareth & Salm’s Argument
Salm’s basic argument is that Nazareth did exist in more ancient times and through the Bronze Age. But then there was a hiatus. It ceased to exist and did not exist in Jesus’ day. Based on archaeological evidence, especially the tombs found in the area, Salm claims that the town came to be re-inhabited sometime between the two Jewish revolts (i.e., between 70 CE and 132 CE), as Jews who resettled following the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans relocated in northern climes.
Salm himself is not an archaeologist: he is not trained in the highly technical field of archaeology and gives no indication that he has even ever been on an archaeological dig. He certainly never has worked at the site of Nazareth.
Still, he bases almost his entire case on archaeological reports about the town of Nazareth. In particular, he is impressed by the fact that the kind of rock-cut tombs that have been uncovered there – called kokh tombs, otherwise known as locula tombs – were not in use in Galilee in the middle of the first century and thus do not date to the days of Jesus. And so the town did not exist then.
The Problem with his Claims
This is a highly problematic claim, to start with. It is hard to understand why tombs in Nazareth that can be dated to the days after Jesus indicate that there was no town there during the days of Jesus. That is to say, just because later habitation can be established in Nazareth, how does that show that the town was not inhabited earlier?
Moreover, Salm fails to stress one of the most important points about this special kind of rock-cut tombs: they were expensive to make, and only the most wealthy of families could afford them.
There is nothing in any of our records to suggest that Nazareth had any wealthy families in the days of Jesus. And so no one in town would have been able to purchase a kokh tomb. So what does the fact that none were found from the days of Jesus indicate? Precisely nothing. The tombs that poor people used in Palestine were shallow graves, not built into the rock, like kokh tombs. These poor-person graves almost never survive for archaeologists to find.
I should also point out that these kokh tombs from later times were discovered on the hillside of the traditional site of Nazareth. Salm, however, claims that the hillside would have been uninhabitable in Jesus’ day, so that, in his opinion, the village that eventually came into existence (in the years after 70 CE) would have been located on the valley floor, less than a kilometer away. He also points out that archaeologists have never dug at that site.
Major Flaw Salm’s These About Nazareth
This view creates insurmountable problems for his thesis. For one thing, there is the simple question of logic. If archaeologists have not dug where Salm thinks the village was located, what is his basis for saying that it did not exist in the days of Jesus? This is a major flaw: using forceful rhetoric, almost to the point of indiscretion, Salm insists that anyone who thinks that Nazareth exists has to argue “against the available material evidence.” But what material evidence can there be, if the site where the evidence would exist has never been excavated? And what evidence, exactly, is being argued against, if none has been turned up?
There is Archaeological Evidence Nazareth Existed
There is an even bigger problem, however. There are numerous compelling pieces of archaeological evidence that in fact, Nazareth did exist in Jesus’ day, and that like other villages and towns in that part of Galilee, it was built on the hillside, near where the later rock-cut kokh tombs were built. For one thing, archaeologists have excavated a farm connected with the village, and it dates to the time of Jesus.
Salm disputes the finding of the archaeologists who did the excavation (it needs to be remembered, that he himself is not an archaeologist but is simply basing his views on what the real archaeologists – all of whom disagree with him — have to say). For one thing, when archaeologist Yardena Alexandre indicated that 165 coins were found in this excavation, she specified in the report that some of them were late, from the fourteenth or fifteenth centuries.
This suits Salm’s purposes just fine. But as it turns out, there were among the coins some that date to the Hellenistic, Hasmonean, and early Roman period, that is, the days of Jesus. Salm objected that this was not in Alexandre’s report, but Alexandre has verbally confirmed (to me personally) that in fact, it is the case: there were coins in the collection that date to the time prior to the Jewish uprising.
Pottery Found in Nazareth
Salm also claims that the pottery found on the site that is dated to the time of Jesus is not really from this period, even though he is not an expert on pottery. Two archaeologists who reply to Salm’s protestations say the following: “Salm’s personal evaluation of the pottery … reveals his lack of expertise in the area as well as his lack of serious research in the sources.”
They go on to state: “By ignoring or dismissing solid ceramic, numismatic [that is, coins], and literary evidence for Nazareth’s existence during the Late Hellenisitic and Early Roman period, it would appear that the analysis which René Salm includes in his review, and his recent book must, in itself, be relegated to the realm of ‘myth.’”
Ken Dark’s Criticism of Salm’s Book
Another archaeologist who specializes in Galilee, Ken Dark, the Director of the Nazareth Archaeological Project, gave a thoroughly negative review of Salm’s book, noting, among other things, that “there is no hint that Salm has qualifications – nor any fieldwork experience – in archaeology.” Dark shows that Salm has misunderstood both the hydrology (how the water systems worked) and the topography (the layout) of Nazareth, and points out that the town could well have been located on the hill slopes, just as other nearby towns were, such as Khirbet Kana.
His concluding remarks are damning: “To conclude: despite initial appearances, this is not a well-informed study and ignores much evidence and important published work of direct relevance. The basic premise is faulty, and Salm’s reasoning is often weak and shaped by his preconceptions. Overall, his central argument is archaeologically unsupportable.”
Discovery in Nazareth
Does Nazareth still exist? As it turns out, another discovery was made in ancient Nazareth, a year after Salm’s book appeared. It is a house that dates to the days of Jesus. Again the principal archaeologist was Yardena Alexandre, the director of the excavation at the Israel Antiquity Authority, whom I again wrote. She has confirmed the news report. The house is located on the hill slopes. Pottery remains connected to the house ranging from roughly 100 BCE to 100 CE (i.e., the days of Jesus). There is nothing in the house to suggest that the persons inhabiting it over this time had any wealth: there is no glass and no imported products. The vessels are made of clay and chalk.
The AP story concludes that “the dwelling and older discoveries of nearby tombs in burial caves suggest that Nazareth was an out-of-the-way hamlet of around 50 houses on a patch of about four acres… populated by Jews of modest means.” No wonder this place is never mentioned in the Hebrew Bible, Josephus, or the Talmud. It was far too small, poor, and insignificant. Most people had never heard of it and those who had heard didn’t care. Even though it existed, this is not the place someone would make up as the hometown of the messiah. Jesus really came from there, as attested in multiple sources.
sorry I’m late and need to catch up/no internet again … someone thinks Jesus’s house did: (they are dusting for fingerprints now .. kindly joking)
http://www.livescience.com/49997-jesus-house-possibly-found-nazareth.html
I know there’s been confusion about the words “Nazareth” and “Nazarite.” Are some of the mythicists claiming people expected the Messiah to be a “Nazarite” (whether or not anyone actually did), and invented a place name that would appear to be related to it?
See today’s post.
Can’t resist adding this thought! If the existence or nonexistence of “Nazareth” proves nothing, one way or the other, as to whether a man called “Jesus of Nazareth” really existed, it’s equally true that the existence or nonexistence of “Arimathea” proves nothing, one way or the other, as to whether a man called “Joseph of Arimathea” really existed.
The difference would be whether Nazareth means anything (no), and whether Arimathea means anything (yes)
As far as I know, there’s still just *speculation* about the origin of the word “Arimathea”…the same as with “Iscariot.” And “Nazareth” could have been coined to suggest a link with “Nazarite” (haven’t read your next post yet!).
I don’t seriously doubt that Jesus came from Nazareth. But…a link with Bethlehem (a real place, of course) was “made up” because some of his followers thought the Messiah had to be born there. So it seems *possible* – at least to me – that a link of some sort with “Nazarite” could have been “made up” too.
Another thought: Are archaeologists sure the “Nazareth” they know of was called by that name in Jesus’s day? (Probably should reread all of this post, even before going on to your next one…)
Yeah, they’re pretty sure.
I’m not aware of much speculation on Arimathea, apart from my own musings….
Larry Hurtado (on his blog) noted Ken Dark’s most recent BAR publication on this: Ken Dark, “Has Jesus’ Nazareth House Been Found?” Biblical Archaeology Review 41, no. 2 (2015): 54-63, 72.
I don’t have access to BAR. Would you consider “forcing” 🙂 one of your grad students to post a summary of this article on your blog? If any of us ever passes through town, we promise to take the student out to the other kind of bar for beer.
Ah, I wish I had grad students at my beck and call!
Today, if you are asked where you are from, you will reply so and so. If its a tiny hamlet or village then they may further say they have never heard of the place and you will reply, oh its near X where X is a larger place like a town where most will say ah, now I know! Postal codes today reflect that as well. Maybe to help the postman? Boston is actually a small town in Lincolnshire, UK! 😉
My point is why would Jesus be referred to as someone from somewhere that few if anyone knew where that was? Jesus of Galilee would surely be more appropriate or where the nearest biggish town was? Wasn’t the early folowers of Jesus called ‘Nazerenes’? Or was that a later development?
Surely any archeologist would want to do a dig where God was born to try and unearth some REAL evidence that he existed or the place existed? Forget the valley of the Kings in Egypt, Jesus was KING of the Jews and much more interesting but then he wouldn’t have had a gold mask on his face or buried in a sealed up tomb somewhere. Or maybe he was and why nobody found the body! 😉
I may post on another aspect of all this sometime and that is IF the whole purpose was to get people across the world to worship the unique one and only Creator God, then does it make any difference whether Jesus was real or not or Nazareth a real place or not? Historically of course, theologically as you always point out Bart, no it doesn’t.
The normal thought is that they were called Nazarenes because they followed a person from Nazareth.
Great post. Though you understand that this argument (“just because it isn’t mentioned doesn’t mean it didn’t exist/happen”) is the same one Christian apologists use to excuse multiple and contradictory versions of different stories in the “synoptics.” They claim (perhaps with some validity?) that just because one version or event wasn’t mentioned by a writer – or told in a different way, such as including different people at the resurrection – doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen ALONG WITH other versions.
Also, someone posted on facebook the point that the author of “Matthew” seems to dream up the word “Nazarene” from a non-existent prophecy in the Hebrew Bible (“”…and came and lived in a city called Nazareth. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophets: “He shall be called a Nazarene.” Matthew 2:23.)
Wouldn’t this be evidence of Nazareth being an imaginary place, given that Matthew has made up other events in order to “fulfill” prophesies – which were interpreted as no such thing by Jews at the time?
What about these two points?
The problem is that there the “prophecy” that Matthew cites does not exist!
Well, the writer of Matthew was using a prophecy to Samson and applying it to his Messiah, very dishonest, like many other of the prophecies in the New Testament.
As an atheist humanist, I find it sad to see some atheists resorting to the “throw all the mud you can and hope some of it sticks” tactic of making unfounded claims such as Nazareth having not existed in Jesus’ time.
Do you think Jesus was born in Nazareth? A few weeks ago I went to both Bethlehem and Nazareth. I always thought Jesus was born in Nazareth but most there focused on Bethlehem as Jesus’s birth place. Is there stong evidence for either?
Yes, I think so. I’ll deal with your question — it’s a good one — in a post in the next day or two.
Dr. Ehrman,
Is there any information, outside of the bible, on when this inhabited area became large enough to be noted in records or on a map and called Nazereth?
Also, I believe some have argued that Jesus was called a Nazirite and (from wikipedia) “Nazirite” (Ναζιραιος) is only one letter off from “Nazorean” (Ναζωραιος) in Greek. Could the later authors of the Gospels have confused these two terms?
Dan
It’s possible, but they are etymologically unrelated.
Nazareth does start to appear in Christian sources outside the Bible, but I’m not sure when it shows up in non-Christian sources.
Do you include or reference the gospel of the Nazarenes in any of your books, or, given its somewhat ephemeral nature, is it even possible to use as a reference? (I’d look this up myself as I have some of your books but they’re kind of…buried…in a bookshelf somewhere)
I made a fresh translation of it in my book, done with my colleague Zlatko Plese, Apocryphal Gospels; the translation is replicated (with an introduction) in our popular version, called The Other Gospels.
Being a native North Carolinian, one of my favorite lines is Matthew 26:73 – “After a little while, those standing there went up to Peter and said, “Surely you are one of them, for your accent gives you away.”
Ha!
Well, archeology has proven to answer that mystery. It is no longer a mystery, but a fact.
Off topic, CNN”s “Finding Jesus” program revealed nothing new. It just seemed to prove that Shroud of Turn is a fake. I can’t believe CNN would just re-hash the same old stuff. What did you think of the program that aired on March 1, 2015?
Didn’t see it!
Off topic, we had a scholar from our local theology grad school give a sermon about Mark recently. He posited that Mark 9:1 (kingdom of God coming with power) was fulfilled in the next passages dealing with the transfiguration. I know you don’t hold that view but do you find it even plausible? Maybe a post topic one of these days.
Yes, that’s a standard interpretation, and it may well be what Mark himself wanted his readers to think. But it’s a little hard to see how Jesus’ being transfigured is the same thing as “the Kingdom of God having come in power”!
Not only did it exist, they found Jesus’ home there http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-sites-places/biblical-archaeology-sites/has-the-childhood-home-of-jesus-been-found/
so you just believe it based on some vague assumptions? a 7 century story.
come on.
Once again your work gets criticized by both sides: The mythicists on the one hand and the fundamentalists on the other hand. Although I respect your work so much, I have no idea how you put up with this ….
I pretend to have a thick skin. (Which, alas, I do not have.)
Would it be rude if I said I noticed that? Not that you pretend, but that I have noticed at times you getting offended or irritated.
Oh, it’s much worse than it appears. 🙂
Rene Salm says on his web site that his new book about the Nazareth myth and hoax will be published soon by American Atheist Press.
The title of the book is “NazarethGate: Quack Archeoloogy, Holy Hoaxes and the Invented Town of Jesus. Salm says this about the new book: “This sequel to THE MYTH OF NAZARETH shows that recent “evidence” for the town’s existence at the turn of the era is as contrived as may be Jesus himself. Chapters include an examination of the 1962 forgery of the Caesarea Inscription (the earliest ‘evidence’ for Nazareth); the bogus ‘house from the time of Jesus’ (which made global headlines just before Christmas, 2009); recent deceptive (and false) claims regarding ‘Hellenistic’ coins at Mary’s Well; and the persistent failure to even acknowledge the existence of several Roman-era tombs under the ‘House of Mary’ (aka, the Church of the Annunciation).”
American Atheist Press, the publisher, is run by Jesus Mythicist Frank Zindler, who promotes a number of fringe and exotic arguments and interpretations about ancient history, religions and the nature of evidence and reasoning. What’s strange is that Zindler tells me Jesus and other bible characters and towns like Paul, Peter, Bethany and Nazareth are fictions and myths but twice he told me that Bigfoot could very much be a novel primate roaming across North America since there are plenty of places for such creatures to hide.
Good god.
Another awful use of the pseudo-suffix “gate”. How original!
Prof. Ehrman, where can one find a dependable overview of the archaeological digs done in around Nazareth as well as some summary and synthesis of what Nazareth looked like during the time of Jesus? I see for instance in the gospels of Matthew and Luke that Nazareth is described as a “city” (polis) (alongside with Capernaum etc.). In the Gospel of Mark the only word linked to Nazareth is “hometown” (patris) in the sense of Jesus’ hometown. The technical nature of the term makes me think that Nazareth is seen in Mark as Jesus’ birth town.
You might start with Jonathan Reed’s book on archaeology and the historical Jesus.
Anything else than Jonathan Reed’s? It seems there is very little.
I cite the archaeology reports in my discussion in my book; he probably does too. Those would be the best places to turn.
Somewhat adjacent to the subject, had you ever heard the hypothesis that the Gospel Writers all misunderstood Jesus to be a Nazareen when he was actually a Resident of Bethlehem or some other out of the way cow-town who had taken the vows of a Nazerite? Does that make sense in the context of Greek-literate Jewish and early Christian authors?
Yes, I deal with that in today’s post. The problem is that the two words are not related etymologically.
It is not just the mythicists who raise doubts. Charles Guignebert was as strong a combatant of their nonsense as you were — and even used the name for them at least in his JESUS, published in the Thirties of the last century. (This is the only book of his I have or have read, but he states that he spent most of his THE PROBLEM OF JESUS — published in 1914 — on their claims and their falsity. I am checking the old book sellers on the net to see if I can find an affordable copy in English.)
Yet Guignebert, while conceding that Nazareth probably existed at the time of Jesus, has questions about whether it is, in fact, the source of the word “Nazarene.” Some of his arguments depend on the Greek or Aramaic, and thus leave me out. (I am a dilettante and an autodidact, but most relevant to some of my arguments is that I am regrettably, but — at 68 — incurably monolingual. Sometimes I can slightly overcome this by comparing the whole group of translations at Bible Gateway — assuming that if there is a question of the Greek some will choose one rendering and some the other.) These arguments are mostly on page 83 of the English translation, but he has others, mostly that the term “Nazarene” seems to be used with more ‘weight’ than it would receive were it merely to mean “someone who comes from the obscure and minor village of Nazareth.” He also considers it highly significant that Paul never uses the term.
I have no idea what Guignebert’s reputation is today. I discovered him as part of the one college course I have taken on the New Testament, taught by the Chaplain of Columbia College — the undergraduate part of the University, not the one in SC — and this was fifty years ago, though I note that people have brought his JESUS back into print. I’d be curious to hear your comments both on him and on his thesis.
I’m afraid I’ve never heard of him, so I don’t really know. But the question of where the word “Nazarene” came from is different from teh question of whether Nazareth existed, I think.
I point out in my comment today that he concedes the existence of Nazareth, but doubts that it is the origin of “Nazarene” at least in all occurrences. As for Guignebert himself, he wrote in the first half of the last century, in fact he died in 1939, and was not translated into English (at least JESUS wasn’t) until 1956, but I believe he was highly regarded in his time — again, maybe he has been totally forgotten now, though there is a current edition of JESUS that was produced in the last few years. He also wrote THE PROBLEM OF JESUS — which seems to have been his criticism of the mythicists. And his JEWISH PEOPLE IN THE TIME OF JESUS was part of C.K. Ogden’s 40-volume HISTORY OF CIVILIZATION. (I’m getting it for Kindle later today and may comment on it in other discussions, if you do not feel I am wasting too much time on irrelevancies and nit-picking and ask me to shut up — a request that is OFTEN well deserved.)
Sorry to be off topic but has something happened to the search box?
A couple of people have asked us, but it is still there for us (both Steven Ray and me). Are you sure it’s not there?
It is gone on mine to, along with the WordPress dashboard that used to show at the top right corner of the page. Maybe it was connected to that..
It’s back now, thanks.
Not at the moment together with my login link.
Is there a Search box? Really a good idea and need. Where is it
It’s the top right of your screen: the magnifying glass.
(Where I live there are infrequent power outages and I’ve managed to beat the problem of no internet by obtaining a mobile internet Dongle USB stick. You prepay minutes and your internet is available no matter where you are located, not unlike satellite phones. It might be handy to look into this.)
FYI
I wonder if there might be a “platform-dependent” component to the problem:
Here are a couple data points to add to the discussion:
– I usually read using an iPad.
– When I’m signed in I only see the search box *after* I tap on the “magnifying glass” icon to the right of my user-name over on the right-hand side of the “CIA” bar at the top of the page (I.e. The bar with the black background).
– I only see the “magnifying glass” icon when I’m signed in to the site.
Yes, that’s how it is set up. You have to be signed in. And you have to click on the magnifying glass.
This is a most interesting topic because it crops up often in conversations about Jesus. I am so glad the issue is put to rest by Bart D. Ehrman. Thank you Sir.
I must also thank the lady named Judith in the Forum. I expressed doubt about Nazareth existing in the time of Jesus and this good lady pointed me to the search box which brought me here. I LOVE this search box, it’ll be a breeze to retrace something I’ve read. Thanks Judith, if you ever read this.
This website is addictive, I have spent over 12 hours a day since becoming a member. I really do appreciate the scholarship of our host. Thank you Sir.
Hi Bart,
I was going to ask you this question too, but I decided to search your blog first and saw you have a couple of posts on the subject. I now have a question on something you said:
“Salm is also impressed by the fact that the early generations of Christians did not seek out the place, but rather ignored it and seemed not to know where it was (this is actually hard to show; how would we know this about “every” early Christian, unless all of them left us writings and told us everything they knew and did?).”
In this instance you seem to be arguing from silence (I know you come up with other arguments later in the post), and Salm seems to be arguing from the evidence (what little there is); that no one of the early Christians ever mentions Nazareth until a much later time, and that this would suggest to him that it is because it didn’t exist.
In your recent debate with Licona on the historical reliability of the Gospels you argue against a Johannine authorship because he is not mentioned as the author explicitly until about 185 AD by Irenaeus.
Your argument goes that the Bible never mentions John as the author, and the early Christians are silent on it for about 90 years. Licona replies that no one says it wasn’t him and that you are making an argument from silence, but you basically reply that you are simply seeking positive evidence from earlier sources that John wrote the Gospel, which there is none. In a similar way Salm seems to be demanding positive corroborating evidence that Nazareth existed during the time of Jesus.
I’m not trying to trip you up or anything like that, it was just as I read, that part of the debate came back to my mind, because your argument stood out to me as a good, but it appears you are doing the opposite here. Shouldn’t we go by the evidence, not the lack of written confirmation for something?
My reason for thinking that John did not write the Fourth Gospel is not that he is not said to have done so for 90 years. My reason is that John, an illiterate lower-class day-laborer from a rural area in a remote part of the empire could almost certainly not write.
Mark 6:1,2 implies Jesus went back to his own country…began to teach in the synagogue…as a prophet in his own country, among his own kin, and in his own house. These statements have been taken to refer to Nazareth. With Nazareth as an “out-of the-way hamlet of around 50 houses on a patch of about four acre,” it would then have had no synagogue or building for multitudes to listen to Jesus. Thoughts?
Yes, that appears to be right. We have no evidence of a synagogue or other public buildings there at the time.
With the seemingly embarrassing account of Jesus unable to perform miracles in his homeland & Mark being the earliest Synoptic source material, we may consider inclusion of such a visit to be historically accurate, correct? If so, why mention something like a synagogue in Nazareth if that would have been know to the readers to be inaccurate? “There’s no synagogue in Nazareth!” Was Nazareth not his hometown?
Yes, Nazareth was his hometown. But contrary to what the Gospels say, there is no evidence to suggest there was any synagogue building there at the time. And I certainly think it’s accurate to say Jesus never did any miracles there….
Thanks for your time. To be clear, the author of the Gospel of Mark by stating Jesus spoke “at a synagogue” in his “hometown” would have been making a statement which readers would have known was false (e.g. Nazareth has no synagogue). Is it possible that the author of Mark knew that Jesus’ hometown was elsewhere- a town with a synagogue, and “Jesus the Nazarene” was a title given for another reason?
No, I’m not saying that. Mark was written far, far away from Palestine, and none of his readers would have any idea what Nazareth was like. (Any more than most readers on the blog — despite mass communication and air travel, completely unavailable to ancients — would know what my one-time hometown Fremont Nebraska is like)
So the author of Mark, writing in Greek, for a Gentile audience far away from Nazareth (potentially Rome, Antioch or Galilee) using oral history as reference (Q?) inserted information about Jesus’ hometown (it possessed a synagogue) which archaeology has now proven inaccurate (it was a small hamlet). Is that an accurate statement?
Yup.
Do you still feel the same way today, 4 years later, that you did in 2015 on Nazareth’s existence? Have you read any of Salm’s later writings? I just finished his chapter in Loftus’ Christianity in the Light of Science. I am not interested in defending or advocating for him, but merely wonder if you consider his later writings a mere rehash of things you still reject as implausible. Thanks.
Yes, I think I’ve read all his writings on the topic. I’m afraid he simply is not qualified in the matter. The people who are — those who are trained archaeologists, including those who have been at the digs — are completely unequivocal on the matter.
Thank you. Jackie
The latest Ken Dark archaeological findings suggest that there can be little doubt that Nazareth eixsted as a sizeable town at the time of Jesus: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/jesus-home-town-nazareth-archaeological-discovery-research-a9470716.html
However, what interests me is that the archaeological findings suggest Nazareth to have been a very religious Jewish town, compared with nearby Sephorus. Does this mean that it may have been a favoured place to live by the pre-Christian Nazarene sect that Paul was suspected of being a leader of in Acts 24:5 ? Someone (? Epiphanius) suggested they lived near mount Carmel (near Nazareth) and the term ‘Jesus of Nazareth’ in the NT (nazōraios) can be rendered ‘jesus the Nazarene’ https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3480&t=NIV . Does this link Jesus with the Essenes as some have claimed? Did the post-Christian Nazarene heretical sect come from the pre-Christian Jewish sect? I gather the latter group wrote a commentary on Isaiah which Jerome crtitqued. If they did stem from the pre-Christian Nazarenes, I wonder whether this might lead to evidence that the pre-Christian Nazarenes linked the suffering servant with the Messiah?
I”ve read the archaeological reports on Nazareth, but I don’t remember anything that indicates a “very religious Jewish town.” What do you mean? What does “religious town mean” And do you mean it was more religious more than *other* towns? In what sense. Mainly though, I wonder what the archaeological basis of that would be. As you probably know, there has not been a synagogue building discovered there. So what are you thinking of as material evidence of greater religiosity? (I’m genuinely interested)
From the 2020 article I linked to, the latest archaeological evidence suggests that in Nazareth compared to Sepphoris: 1. the inhabitants only used ceramic and other artefacts regarded as ritually pure, 2. applied religious prohibition on the use of human excrement to fertilise fields (the Essenes regarded excrement as ritually/spiritually impure and unclean, and took the view that all human excrement must be buried). 3. the inhabitants lived purely Jewish lives, 4. the inhabitants seem to have been actively anti-Roman (in 4BC, an anti-Roman revolt is known to have broke out in Nazareth and there is a network of escape tunnels). 5. the inhabitants used a high proportion of stone bowls and cups (stone vessels beleived to be immune to ritual and spiritual impurity in a way that ceramic and wooden vessels were not and were used for ritual washing). 6. Nazareth was chosen by one of the second century high priests as his official residence. 7.. Nazareth has tombs with life-size glass versions of shofarot.
A better article by Ken Dark himself: https://bibleinterp.arizona.edu/articles/archaeology-nazareth-early-first-century
“the most plausible explanation of this pattern is that the inhabitants of Sepphoris and its surrounding settlements followed a less strict version of Judaism, and one more open to Roman provincial culture, than those of Nazareth. ……………The settlement [Nazareth] clearly did exist in the early first century, contrary to some recent ill-informed speculations, and was an agricultural community with a population following a strict interpretation of Second Temple Judaism”
Dark also says about Nazareth that it is “exactly the sort of place where one might expect there to be a synagogue, whether as a building or public assembly, like that mentioned in the Gospels of Matthew and Mark, and where one might find a τέκτων (tekton), a craftsman, a term used for Jesus and Joseph in the same Gospels”
What is his evidence that they followed a strict interpretation. Seems weird to talk about a town that way, like “Chapel Hill is particularly fundamentalist in its Christianity.”
Most of these are not of much use. I haven’t been able to look at the source yet. E.g., 6: no relevance Could you tell me where it was published and who the author s was? Also, how soes, e.g., 1 reconcile with 5? and how do we know they used “only” those? 2: they certainly didn’t follow the rulings of the Essenes!!! 3: that’s the question, so how is it evidence of the answer; 4: anti-Roman is not the same as highly religious, at *all*; 6 is irelevant for the 20s CE; 7: from what date?
Hi Bart, I agree with your concerns and there is indeed a contradiction in the ‘Independent’ newspaper aricle I referenced re ceramic utensils (but not re stone vessels). Re the Nazareth dwellers not following ther Essene rules: presumably you mean some of the other community rules at Qumran apart from the excretion rules? Which rules in particular were you referring to? I don’t think Dark was suggesting the Nazareth dwellers were Essenes, just that they had some strict religious observances in common. it would be fascinating to know whether they were Nazarenes, but I am not sure we know enough about Nazerenes or Nazareth dwellers to get any traction on this question. How were Nazarenes related to Essenes for example? I gather we don’t even know for certain that Qumran dwellers were the ‘Essenes’ that Josephus and others referred to. I got all my information from the 2 articles I linked to, but I don’t have access to any journal articles, so finding the original archaelogical journal publications could be a job for one of your under-graduates at Chapel Hill? It seems that Dark’s article referenced his book https://www.amazon.co.uk/Roman-Period-Byzantine-Hinterland-Palestine-Exploration/dp/0367408236
I’m saying that it woudl be quite remarkable if anyone in the small town of Nazareth had any connections at *all* with the Essenes. There almost certainly was no group known as the Nazarenes or Nazoreans etc. in Jesus’ day.
Can anything good come out of Nazareth?” This passage (John 1:45-51) seems fascinating because it’s an incongruous thing to say and it doesn’t contribute anything to John’s purpose or theology. The exchange thus has a ring of truth to it :-). Was Nazareth too small for Nathaniel? (?Batholomew of the synoptics) Was it insignifcant propehetically (asuming the town had a different etymology to the ‘Netzer’ of Isaiah 11:1); was Nazareth in competition with Nathaniel’s home town?; or more intriguingly was Nathaniel’s comment made because Nazareth was the base of a ‘heretical’ pre-Christian sect – perhaps the Nazarenes referred to by Tertulus (Acts 24:5?) (although Tertullus may have just been using the Judean term for Christians). The John passage also ends up with Jesus refering to the Son of Man (John 1:51)
The point, I guess, is that after his death people were saying that Jesus could not be the messiah because he wsa so insignificant that no one had ever heard of him; hardly anyone had even heard of the town he came from. John’s Gospel is trying to explain that he was teh messiah anyway.
Maybe so, but didn’t Epihanius think that the Nazarenes, as a religious sect, existed before Jesus? I’ve notced your emphasis on the insignificance of Jesus and Nazareth at the time. This is presumably because of the relatively tiny amount of non-Christian historical references to him, inlcuding the single dubious Josephus reference? Do you think this may have been at least partly due to distortion by the expungation of the name of Jesus from Jewish literature by the Yimach Shemo curse and it’s being put into operation? After all, we don’t even know for certain what Jesus’s real name was! I favour ‘Yeshu’ because Yeshu became the curse by being an acronym for the words of the Yimach Shemo, linking with Galatians 3:13 (did the Yimach Shemo start in Paul’s day?), it’s 2 syllables (transliterated into Yesus and Isa and, as I discovered this weekend, the supposedly Aramaic “Eeshoo” used by Syriac churches), as well as the Galillean dialect of Aramaic tendency to not pronouce the last vowel eg of Yeshua (can’t remember where I got that from – probably needs checking!)
The problem is that Epiphanius often gets things wrong (easily shown), and living 400 years later, he would have no way of knowing when the Nazarenes came into existence. My sense is that just about everypiece of evidence we have outside the NT suggests Jesus was not a known figure in his day. You’re right — no Roman even mentions his name until 80 years after his death, and even though they don’t seem to know much about him.
Thanks Bart, I suppose in that way you could say that it did suit John’s purpose in saying: ‘hey, we all know he was from insignifcant Nazareth as Nathaniel pointed out, but hey, he was still the Messiah!’ Nevertheless, it would still take some reversed lateral thinking and creativity to come up with the ‘can anything good…’ exclamation don’t you think?. Since reading your book and whilst we’ve been discussing Mashyiach, Bar Enash,, Suffering servant, righteous one etc, it’ occured to me that maybe because proto-orthodox and orthodox Christianity preferentially adopted the Messianic title for Jesus, that we’ve over-emphaiszed the expecation of “the Mashyiach” at the expense of other apocalyptic title expectations. Perhaps pre-Christianity, expectations were more heterogeneous and in some groups more steeped in Daniel and Encoch eg Essenes, the Son of Man was the big expectation, whilst in other groups eg ?the Zealots, the coming annointed King to be, Son of David was a bigger deal and in other groups eg the Pharisees ‘the man like me’ of Moses was more the big deal and in yet others eg ? the Nazarenes (if they existed before Christianity), the branch, shoot or suffering servant was the deal?
There isn’t any evidence of Nazarenes being around before Xty , or of Jews thinking thatthe suffering servant was a messiah figure.
OK, but does the *possibilty* that Jesus was relatively unknown (or ‘insignificant’) in his day outside his circle of disciples / family / countymen** mean that Jesus is ‘insignificant in the context of history now? Of course not! Just because he had no honour/splendour/glory then (‘hadar’ Isaiah 53:2), does not mean the YHVH hasn’t made him the most significant person in the history of our planet, dividing him a portion with the great (Isaiah 53:12); exalting him very high (Isaiah 52:13), to the point of silencing Kings (Isaiah 52:15); and making him a light to the Gentiles for salvation unto the end of the earth (Isaiah 49:6).
** Was ‘the prophet’ really ‘without any honour’ everywhere else, but among his own? – I’m doubtful)
As for the Messiah being associated with the suffering servant before Jesus and Christianity, I am reading Israel Knohl’s book on this topic and I think his arguments from the Dead Sea Scrolls (especially, but not exclusively, from the ‘self-glorification hymn’), make a compelling case. Once I have finished it, I will try to condense the arguments and post on the Isaiah 53 discussion.
Ehrman says, “No wonder this place is never mentioned in the Hebrew Bible, Josephus, or the Talmud. It was far too small, poor, and insignificant.”
This is contradicted by Ken Dark’s book in 2023 on page 139: “first-century Nazareth looks like more than a hamlet. It encompassed an area equivalent to much of central Nazareth today.”
An earlier article says, “Nazareth, once thought to have been a small village, likely to have been a town of around 1,000 people, new evidence suggests.” And “Nazareth … was substantially bigger than previously thought, religiously very conservative and politically very anti-Roman.”(https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/jesus-home-town-nazareth-archaeological-discovery-research-a9470716.html).
Ken also appeared in a 2023 YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bO4m-x_wwg
It seems to me that Jesus, the so-called “unpopular man” is really Jesus, “one of many unpopular folk-stories.” These hopeful and heroic fictions of small communities took a life of its own with malleable stories crafted in hindsight, evolving dramatically from crises and revolts; much like the heroic-fiction of Daniel. Because of the latter “widespread interest” in “who are the Jews” upon the destruction of Jerusalem, these malleable stories morphed into “a popular man” a century later with books upon books filling in “gaps of questions” for various reasons by random writers.
Interesting I believe in the material I read from him in working on my book he said it comprised about 50 houses. I recently asked Jodi Magness if she’d be willing to give a lecture on the archaeological remains of Nazareth and she wasn’t interested because, she said, there’s almost nothing there…. Is the “earlier article” you’re mentioning by Dark or someone else?
Barterman do you have an email I can contact you by I saw something that bothered me look I know you’re a you’re an atheist and I’m a Christian but could I ask you to respond to it please it’s by some mysticist do you have an email it’s not a block was just a short comment that bothered me
Can I email you something because that what I want to email you is longer than the 200 word limit it’s a question that’s bothered me
I’m afriad that I am able to answer only questions I get here, and that itself is a struggle!! We need more hours in our days.
Could Jesus be an entirely spiritual being in itself that never fully existed physically?
I don’t think so. I show why in my book Did Jesus Exist?
Thanks for the reply. I’ll check out your book for sure.
Hey barterman I saw this could you respond to this very quickly https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/d124wc/i_disagree_with_bart_ehrman_that_brothers_of_the/
I’m afraid I dn’t have time to read it, but if you want to summarize what it says I’d be happy to respond.
Where can I email you I just have a general question and there’s a comment limit my comment I wanted to really ask you over 500 words
I’m afraid I’nm not able to deal with questions over correspondence.
Carrier stupid argument about Philo read this it refutes it here https://www.joeledmundanderson.com/richard-carrier-and-the-mythical-jesus-part-3-the-mythicist-argument-welcome-to-bizarro-world-i-e-a-lesson-on-how-not-to-interpret-the-bible/ https://jesustweezers.home.blog/2018/11/11/against-richard-carriers-belief-that-philo-of-alexandria-believed-in-a-space-alien-angel-jesus/
Bart erman could you do an article on in Romans 1:3 in Galatians 4 and I think you should read this https://historyforatheists.com/2020/05/jesus-mythicism-6-pauls-davidic-jesus-in-romans-13/https://davesblogs.home.blog/2023/05/11/was-jesus-born-of-manufactured/ https://acrobat.adobe.com/id/urn:aaid:sc:EU:e634175b-1975-4fa5-94ee-07d619f81d61
Hey I found an excellent post on Nazareth could you read the https://earlywritings.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=80&sid=45a94a8eb99ad32d729ca41ec27940b9
Bart do you know any good critiques of the book the case against q I’m interested because Jesus mysticism his use it to dismiss the idea of q who’s written by Mark goodaker do you know any good critiques of his Fahrenheit hypothesis
Most scholars don’t buy his views on Q, but I don’t know of any books that have directly refuted him.