This thread is an offshoot of another I created a while back entitled ** you do not have permission to see this link **. One of my questions was about the relationship between hypothetical extraterrestrials and their awareness (if any) of religion. I owe Porphyry a response and I’m still making notes to continue my thread on 1 Enoch but I’m also in the midst of what appears to be an annual bout of sinusitis (particularly strong antibiotics, alas) so my brain is currently only capable of the lighter, fun stuff. This thread was directly stimulated by a video helpfully provided by the YT algorithm.
Emersen begins with the question of what would make him convert and he offers the interesting suggestion of Christian aliens, or more specifically, that we discovered Christianity (or something “like” it) had appeared independently on another planet. Ok, this raises all kinds of other interesting questions. Some related to my other thread which is why I included the link.
I question the assumption behind an alien “Christianity” or something “like” it. If we look back on our own history Christianity sprang from a specific historical cultural environment. It was time bound and culture bound. So how closely would this alien Christianity have to mirror our version to be clearly identifiable? Would there also have to be precursors? An alien Judaism? An alien Hellenism? Now the phrase “something like it” would seem to suggest that Emersen not require a precise match, but how close does it have to be until it becomes something else? The very suggestion of multiple Christianities would seem to imply that there are qualities they all would share that transcend each specific example. What would those be exactly?
Consider a scenario where an alien race of squids sacrifice one of their fellows by forcing it up out of the water onto a dry beach to die. Some of the squid’s compatriots, its shoal, later claim to have seen it alive again down in the water and begin to preach that if anyone believes this they will be resurrected from death. Is that close enough?
The popular British fantasist/apologist/scholar C S Lewis occasionally speculated about such issues. His own suggestion that each world might have a unique divine savior still rather freaks out his American fans who tend to fundamentalism (and who are scarcely aware any other flavor of Christian belief even exists.) This latter bunch are somewhat more comfortable with Lewis’ clever idea in his novel ** you do not have permission to see this link **, that Earth is the “Silent Planet”, in cosmic quarantine precisely because of our primordial “Fall”. The other planets are not in need of a savior because they never fell!
American author James Blish turned this idea on its head in his novel ** you do not have permission to see this link ** which describes the spiritual crisis of a Jesuit crewmember of an expedition to another planet, home to an apparently unfallen race of aliens.
Finally, the idea of alien conversion is explored in Michael Bishop’s satire ** you do not have permission to see this link ** wherein a race of aliens visit a future domed Atlanta dominated by a fundamentalist sect. The aliens attend a religious service and they convert!
Interesting ideas make interesting stories but realistically it is very much more likely that if we ever do encounter aliens they will have no concept of religion at all. This would seem to have profound theological implications. Not to be cynical but I think if we do have such an alien encounter half the human race will want to fire nuclear missiles at them and the other half will want to fall on their knees in worship.
Stephen
if we ever do encounter aliens they will have no concept of religion at all.
Steefen
There is no entity greater than an alien?
Aliens do not need wisdom?
Aliens do not have dimensions higher than the material realm?
Aliens do not have consciousness separate from the material realm?
Steefen it’s astounding the lack of imagination presented in discussions like this. You can comprehend that aliens might be physically different than humans, right? Then why assume their consciousness will be at all like ours? We cannot extrapolate from the single example we know of – us. Who knows what various paths to sentience there might be? The human eye is sensitive to only a certain range in the electromagnetic spectrum. Same with hearing and the other senses. Why assume aliens, the product of contingent evolution as much as us, will resemble us in any way? What if they are cephalopods who communicate by color? Or blind spiders who communicate by stridulation?
There is nothing inevitable about us. Life first appeared 3.5 billion years ago. Homo Sapiens appeared less than half a million. And that only after five major mass extinctions! And the random collision with a comet 65 million years ago that cleared out an ecosystem that enabled our ancestors, rodents that lived in the roots of trees, to flourish. 98% of all life that has ever been is extinct. If life is not inevitable nor consciousness then why would a cultural expression like religion be so?
Here’s another video from Emerson Green responding to criticisms of UFO believers.
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As a board certified card carrying skeptic I consider these objections trivial and mostly beside the point. Let me explain my own chain of reasoning as to why I doubt we have been visited by aliens. (I will leave aside the obvious objection that we have absolutely no evidence of such encounters whatsoever.)
Steefen you bristle at critique of your ideas. I offer this as an invitation for vigorous critique.
We have explored our own solar system to the degree that it is pretty clear we do not share it with any other civilizations, space-faring or otherwise. It follows that any hypothetical aliens must journey from other stars. They will not be interplanetary as we currently are, but interstellar. Certain conclusions can be drawn from this.
They will be hundreds if not thousands of years more advanced than we are. (If anyone doubts this then explore the technology required to make such travel possible.)
They will have solved the energy problem.
They will have established a stable long term civilization.
They will have no fear of us.
They will need nothing from us.
These conclusions eliminate most if not all of the motivations ascribed to aliens by the conspiracy theorists.
Shall I expand? (Be careful what you wish for. I suffer from terminal logorrhea. In this case the disease doesn’t kill you. The people you trap do that!)
No single item of technology exists in isolation. Conspiracy theorists imagine aliens who can get all the way from another star with competence but then when they get here they act like mentally challenged 12 year olds. They crash saucers at every opportunity, come all that way to mutilate cows and abduct humans to probe their rectal cavities. Or conspire with dark forces to take over our government. Sheesh.
Any alien society capable of supporting travel to other stars must already have in place a network of technology requiring a dependable energy source and stable social arrangement to support it. Trips to other stars are not impulse affairs. And having such technology and social stability ensures that it will always be easier to produce what you need locally than to travel all the way to another star to produce it. For example, why travel all the way to earth to conquer it when you could build artificial planets or terraform local empty planets?
More importantly, if they have the technology to travel from one star to another there would be absolutely nothing we could do to threaten them. If they wished to remain unobserved we would never know they existed. If they wanted to land at the White house they could do so without a care.
It follows that there is absolutely nothing we have that they could need. Being able to travel from one star to another insures they have more than we could ever provide. The conspiracy theories describe the equivalent of me traveling to Outer Mongolia to buy an umbrella.
The X-Files conspiracy theories are holdovers from a previous age when it was imagined that there might be civilizations on planets like Mars or Venus. These civilizations could be only decades or a century or two ahead of us and share similar motivations. But once you expand your vision from the interplanetary to the interstellar then every consideration also expands exponentially. The Star Trek view where you have multiple civilizations at more or less the same level of technology is the least likely scenario. If we ever build a society capable of traveling to the stars what we are most likely to find are either fossils of bacteria or ruins a millions times older than Gobekli Tepe. Before that day comes though we have a lot of growing up to do as a species.
Steefen do you honestly think I haven’t heard these sorts of claims before? I’ve been interested in the UFO phenomenon since I was a kid. I still have a couple of those old TIME/LIFE magazines from the 1960s with pages of photographs and accounts of sightings from all over the world. I lost interest when the abductee movement began. That seemed pathological and creepy. (I once saw a documentary about abductees featuring a fairly reputable psychologist who had become interested in the experience and became convinced they were authentic. He was interviewed with an abductee who at some point began writhing and moaning on his couch. The doctor solemnly pronounced that the abductee was “reexperiencing his abduction”. But wait a minute! If he’s “reexperiencing his abduction” and it’s clearly a mental aberration then why would you assume his original experience was not? Isn’t the simplest explanation that it was all in his head?)
Steefen Have you ever personally tried to verify any of these UFO claims yourself?
Have you ever had a UFO experience yourself? Ever been abducted?
Posting videos is a waste of your time. I would like to hear YOUR thoughts and YOUR response to my posts.
Ever think about the implications of any of this stuff?
If YOU are not willing to share YOUR thoughts then why bother?
Comment 7
Stephen:
Steefen do you honestly think I haven’t heard these sorts of claims before? I’ve been interested in the UFO phenomenon since I was a kid. I still have a couple of those old TIME/LIFE magazines from the 1960s with pages of photographs and accounts of sightings from all over the world. I lost interest when the abductee movement began. That seemed pathological and creepy. (I once saw a documentary about abductees featuring a fairly reputable psychologist who had become interested in the experience and became convinced they were authentic. He was interviewed with an abductee who at some point began writhing and moaning on his couch. The doctor solemnly pronounced that the abductee was “reexperiencing his abduction”. But wait a minute! If he’s “reexperiencing his abduction” and it’s clearly a mental aberration then why would you assume his original experience was not? Isn’t the simplest explanation that it was all in his head?)
Steefen:
Comment 5 is not about abductees by aliens.
Aliens do not just abduct humans. Niara Terela Isley did not discuss her abduction experience before joining the military.
Your reply is not quality.
Stephen:
Steefen Have you ever personally tried to verify any of these UFO claims yourself?
Steefen:
That’s not my profession.
Stephen:
Have you ever had a UFO experience yourself? Ever been abducted?
Steefen:
Irrelebant.
Stephen:
Posting videos is a waste of your time.
Steefen:
In your opinion. There are 2,336 Comments on the video and more than 150,000 views.
It’s a waste of time for Niara Terela Isley to share her experiences in the military?
It’s a waste of time for journalists to interview her?
Your reply is not quality.
Stephen:
I would like to hear YOUR thoughts and YOUR response to my posts.
Your response is poor quality and in once case irrelevant.
= = = =
The video is entitled The Secret Space Program IS REAL and this Whistleblower is EXPOSING all of it.
The video even opens with information that foreign governments are establishing bases on the dark side of the Moon.
On the moon, an nonhuman alien worked with a human. On Mars a nonhuman alien worked with a human.
The decades-old question, Did the U.S. go to the Moon and discover life on the Moon?
Sometimes the moon expeditions were real and sometimes they were faked.
Government contractors abused US military personnel.
There have been human-alien hybrids.
There are aliens on the Earth.
There is alien-human technology partnerships.
There is aging reversal technology used for healing–and all you have to say is something not discussed except briefly in passing, F on your paper.
@Metropolis-gh6bc
19 hours ago
When I was in the Army 1975-1979, I saw US-Made flying saucers at Fort Irwin, CA, and Fort Carson, CO.
I’ve spent almost 50-years trying to convince people we have them. Ask MetaAI when Germany developed the first flying saucers.
@rasputinnovi
23 hours ago (edited)
Two years ago I bought Niara Terela Isley’s book, “Facing the Shadow, Embracing the Light”. I think it’s a great book and recommend it.
@RickyLee11.11
14 hours ago (edited)
CLAYTON…..PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE GET RANDY CRAMER ON YOUR SHOW….HE WAS IN THE SSP ALSO AND WAS A VERY WELL RANKED PILOT AND HAS BEEN TO YHE INTER GALACTIC JUPITER SPACE STATION. MR CRAMER LIVES IN SEDONA AZ AND HAS BEEN ON THE GAIA CHANNEL MANY TIMES, MORE PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW THIS.
@suzannethomas2600
17 hours ago
Andrew Basiago told us all this 25 years ago
@brendadavis5252
19 hours ago (edited)
I know for a fact that the med beds are real my son has gone to these appointments and they give you so much time in it to help heal his cancer.
@raymondvandewalle934
19 hours ago
Jason Shurka was on Redacted. He is one the founders of EES technology, and has healing centers all around the World 🌎 This is all facts…amazing courage she has shared with us all
@ChristyBrown-d9q
19 hours ago
I read Trance Formation of America (yes that is the way she titled it) by Cathy O’Brien. You will never see the American politicians of the 1980’s the same ever again. Our Presidents, Governors, etc. sick people.
@edholden3930
18 hours ago
William Tompkins helped design the bases on moon, mars and other planets. He designed the moon rovers also. Read his books ‘selected by Extraterrestrials’ he was in the Douglas think tank years before NASA was developed.
@phillipinmon4132
16 hours ago
This woman is absolutely correct!!
I quickly tire of YouTube. If you search for “aliens and religion” you get so much utter crap that it becomes a waste of time. Fortunately there was a deeper older superior medium invented to pass on information.
Steven J Dick is an astronomer and historian of science. He has worked for the US Naval Observatory, for NASA and the Library of Congress. One of his areas of historical focus has been the idea of alien life and how it has influenced western thought. He has written several really interesting books.
I include the first one because it’s a really useful book. Unfortunately long out of print, hence the prices. I found a used copy many years ago. Worth a search.
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Friends I have the same attitude towards UFOs that I do towards religion. I lack any true belief but I am fascinated by the phenomenon. And by no means simply as an form of dispassionate intellectual inquiry. These are the dreams of humankind and as such worthy of attention. To someone interested it becomes hard to wade through the drivel produced by conspiracy theorists and credulous gullible naïfs. But the longing for it to be true, the need and the desire is often very moving. Prayers to an indifferent universe. Cries of loneliness. There are few good books written about UFOs that explore it on a personal rather than academic or cultural level. Here’s one.
** you do not have permission to see this link ** by David J Halperin. Halperin, interestingly, is a biblical scholar and has written a terrific book on Merkabah Mysticism entitled Faces of the Chariot. This book is invaluable because it includes a history of the discussion of scholarly arguments about the Hekhalot material since Gershom Scholem. Unfortunately Faces is long out of print and well-nigh unobtainable**. I wrote to Halperin asking where he thought I could find a copy from a legitimate vendor. I was completely honest indicating I was not a scholar but became interested after reading Robert Alter’s translation of Ezekiel during the pandemic. He was gracious enough to actually send me a copy! (This just pisses me off at academic publishers even more. Scholars respond to enthusiasm while publishers strive to grind out every nickel.)
**From a legitimate vendor. My unflagging respect for the academic press prevents me from mentioning questionable sources like ** you do not have permission to see this link **.
Finally two old classics.
** you do not have permission to see this link **. Jung’s book is still entertaining even if you don’t buy into all his psychological theories (which I do not).
** you do not have permission to see this link **. Leon Festinger’s account of infiltrating a UFO cult back in the 1950s.
Well folks unless someone wants to take a swipe at my reasoning that’ll do it for me.
He was gracious enough to actually send me a copy! (This just pisses me off at academic publishers even more. Scholars respond to enthusiasm while publishers strive to grind out every nickel.)
This is fairly typical in academic publishing–academics aren’t usually motivated to publish by money and they rarely get much, if any. This is one of the (several) reasons I don’t take copyright law particularly seriously.
Well I thought I was done. I should have learned by now that I’m not enough of a distinctive thinker to be concerned with ideas not shared by anyone else. (Although I am pretty darned cute.)
Here’s an article from the always interesting AEON site about xenolinguistics, the matter of hypothetical alien languages and the problems of communication.
** you do not have permission to see this link **
All this reminds me of an episode in the original 1960s TV show The Outer Limits. A couple looking for a retirement home stumble upon a secluded valley in a desert out west. Through various weird incidents and encounters they come to realize that an alien intelligence from some realm an unimaginable distance away from earth, despairing of ever making the journey physically, has projected its consciousness in an effort to make contact. It first inhabits unliving objects, stones and tumbleweeds, and progresses through to animals and then to humans. The problem is that to the aliens the earth is completely beyond their comprehension and their attempts are fruitless. Of course initially the humans interpret it all as some kind of cliched alien invasion and only gradually realize the truth. The aliens can speak but are deaf to replies and the humans can hear but cannot speak.
Akin to this, what is the feeling as you go through childhood when you first hear of stuff like magnetism, hypnosis,rockets, UFOs, telescopes, etc?
Now I have a bit of the same fascination with the newly documented lightning phenomena called sprites, elves, jets. Earthsky.org has one photo which to me looks like a central divine being approaching surrounded by lesser divine being.
Surely this common but obscure form of lightning is responsible for some of the claims of lights and objects in the sky.
So far all formal studies of UFO sightings have some to the same conclusion. The vast majority of UFOs are misidentified natural phenomena. A minority are outright hoaxes. This leaves a small portion of sightings for which there is simply not enough information to make a credible determination one way or another. It’s this last grouping that has been the bread and butter for UFO true believers. If there’s no definite proof they aren’t natural then they must be aliens, right? Well…no. There’s just not enough info.
Of the misidentified natural phenomena the overwhelming majority are astronomical in nature. We live in the most well-lit civilization in history and are so cut off from the night sky that most people reach adulthood without ever actually seeing the Milky Way on a clear night. I can remember as a boy in rural Georgia going camping with my friends. We went to Jackson Lake (now, alas, ringed by McMansions) and would find a clear cut area and set up camp. At night it would be so clear you felt like you could reach up and stir the stars with your fingers. I remember once seeing clouds on what I thought was supposed to be a clear night and then realizing that those were clouds – clouds of stars!
Most people are simply unaware of what it is possible to observe in the sky on any given night. Satellites, meteors, comets, all manner of aircraft including the ISS, etc. I remember once walking out of a restaurant and overhearing a small group of diners chatting excitedly about this bright light they could see over the trees on the horizon. They were half way to thinking that they were seeing some kind of UFO when it was the planet Venus! How do I know? Well how do you know your family and friends? You’ve seen them so many times you recognize them. Now from a distance you might mistake them for someone else but as soon as you see them clearly you know who they are. It’s the same with the visible planets. Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, all look different. All have characteristic color and path across the sky.
The best “UFOs” are the sky-grazers. These are meteors that approach earth at so shallow an angle that they skip across the sky like a flat stone thrown across a pond. When they make contact with the atmosphere they incandesce so it’s possible for them to flicker on and off as they move laterally across the sky. The best one I ever saw was in my cousin Larry’s backyard when I was about 17. It was coming in overhead and so appeared like a glowing red ball rising over the tree tops. The illusion was perfect. Now it could have been a space ship but this is a much more likely explanation.
Anybody ever heard of an Iridium Flare? In the 1960s a group of 66 Iridium communication satellites were launched into low earth orbit. Each has three large flat highly reflective antennae that, if you are standing at the right spot in the twilight, can make a classic UFO. The first one I ever saw took me completely by surprise. Imagine looking at a fairly mundane area in the sky with no planets or memorable constellations and slowly, unexpectedly a pinpoint of light appears and gets brighter and brighter until it is the brightest object in the sky? And then dims back into nothingness. In looked at my friend and made sure he saw it too. We thought we had seen a real UFO! Later we found out what it probably was. It was still spine-tingling. If anybody is interested you better hurry. As the original satellites age out they are being replaced with non-reflective versions.
What about a bolide? These are meteors that explode in the atmosphere. I saw one while I was standing in downtown Atlanta one evening. It I had seen it out in the country it would have easily cast shadows. In searched the paper the next day to see if anybody reported it. Nope. I just happened to be looking up at the right moment.
So when people ask me if I “believe in UFOs” I tell them, No, because I’ve seen so many of them. Of course what they’re actually asking is if I believe in alien spaceships. People see things in the sky they can’t identify all the time.
** you do not have permission to see this link **
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And while you’re at it, join the International Dark Sky Association!
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Years ago one summer evening about 9 p.m. my husband and I witnessed a spectacle of about eight lighted – not with lights but more like a faint glow – objects that moved in formation as a perimeter of a rotating circle –over to the north in our back yard, very proximal and just overhead. These objects moved inward straight toward the center of their circle and then back outward and then rotated on the perimeter, all in unison. This continued for some 3 – 5 minutes. Then they just shot off away into different directions.
More articles from AEON, not altogether off topic.
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They have big brains, long childhoods and sociable, curious minds. So why haven’t birds developed complex culture?
The search for extraterrestrials is largely driven by astronomers and astrophysicists. The need to listen to the biologists to find out why sentience will be very rare in the universe.
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Certain slime moulds can make decisions, solve mazes and remember things. What can we learn?
If we encounter intelligent alien life will we even recognize it? Anyway how could you refuse a book entitled ** you do not have permission to see this link **?
Comment 10
It is not the “dream” of Steefen.
Books/Sources
UFOs and the National Security State by Richard M. Dolan
The Day after Roswell by Col. Philip J. Corso (U.S. Army, ret.)
5,341 ratings averaging 4.5 reviews
Secret Journey to Planet Serpo by Len Kasten
1,591 ratings averaging 4.5
Imminent by Luis Elizondo
Facing the Shadow, Embracing the Light by Niara Terela Isley (U.S. military, ret.)
Aon/REG Interview
All 6 say Grays exist.
Elizondo’s book avoids naming species but supports non-human intelligence.
So, @Stephen stop attacking me personally. Are you a retired U.S. Army colonel?
Are you of a higher U.S. military rank than Col. Philip J. Corso?
You have access to intelligence he has?
You have written a review of The Day after Roswell with intelligence access greater than him?
Leaving out Aon/REGrant and Kasten’s book about Planet Serpo and the Grays there called Ebens, for now, why are they less credible than you?
Reminders:
Former member of President Eisenhower’s National Security Council and the Foreign Technology Desk in the United States Army, Colonel Philip J. Corso was assigned to work at a strange crash site in Roswell in 1947.
In 2020, however, after decades of denial, the US Department of Defense made the astonishing admission that strange aerial and underwater objects frequently reported and videoed by pilots and tracked by sensors are real, unexplained, and pose a genuine national security concern. – From In Plain Sight
= = =
So, I’m adding that book:
In Plain Sight: An investigation into UFOs and impossible science by Ross Coulthart, an award-winning journalist
2,434 ratings averaging 4.5 stars
Just so you know who you’re up against, here:
Ross Coulthart has won five Walkley Awards for journalism, including the prestigious Gold Walkley, which is the highest honor in Australian journalism, according to Nexstar Media Group, Inc.. He has also been recognized with a Logie Award for his investigative work in broadcast news. Additionally, his biography of Charles Bean won the Prime Minister’s Literary Award for Australian History, according to Wikipedia.
Here’s more homework for challenging your erroneous criticism of extra-terrestrials.
QUESTION:
What highly credible source that we have not yet mentioned support Grays and Reptilians?
ANSWER:
An Assessment (1964)
U.S. military intelligence memo, recounted by whistleblowers
Cited four ET groups including Grays; reptilian-type humanoids (laddered vertical pupils, scaly skin) confirmed by military/police reports
Dr. Michael Wolf
Former National Security Council/exopolitics source
Identifies multi-group confederations—Alliance (Nordics), Corporate (Grays), United Races of Orion (Reptilians)
Col. Paul Helyer
Former Canadian Minister of Defense
Publicly affirmed reptilian species and non-human intelligences supporting disclosure
John F. Ramirez (CIA whistleblower)
Former CIA officer and remote-viewing expert
Describes personal encounters with reptilian beings walking among humans; hybrid influence suggested
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While not a single-source book, Michael Salla’s interviews and lecture series are widely shared in the exopolitical community and present source-heavy narratives on Gray and Reptilian groups. (Available via Gaia and public YouTube presentations.)
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