Barrie Wilson, Author of How Jesus Became Christian
Period of Faith – Abraham
to
Period of Torah – Moses
to
Period of Faith – Jesus
Galatians is so important to Christianity
The time of Torah is over. – Galatians
Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy
** you do not have permission to see this link ** The Law [Torah] was a guardian. The historical period of faith has returned: we are no longer under our guardian of Torah. We are all sons of God through Faith in Christ.
Do not ask me to accept this is pre-Temple Destruction religious thought which probably means do not ask me to accept Paul’s ministry to have taken place before the Temple became desolate of its purpose before the actual destruction.
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So, Paul was a persecutor of the Jesus movement but, at-large, was also against all Jews when he claimed the time of Torah was over.
If the time of Torah was over, certainly the time of the Temple was over.
Why would Steven be stoned to death but Paul was on his way to Damascus because religious authorities sent him to persecute more people who were first followers of the Law, followers of Jesus second?
= = =
Let’s let Dr. Robert Price share with us what he thinks about Paul.
James Tabor, Ph.D. and M. David Litwa, Ph.D.
James Tabor, Ph.D.
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James Daniel Tabor is a Biblical scholar and Professor of Ancient Judaism and Early Christianity in the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, where he has taught since 1989 and served as Chair from 2004–14.
M. David Litwa, Ph.D.
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M. David Litwa is Research Fellow in Biblical and Early Christian Studies at the Institute for Religion and Critical Inquiry, Australian Catholic University in Melbourne.
Bart Ehrman
Paul did not invent Christianity.
If he invented Christianity, he would not have had anyone to persecute.
Steefen, Argumentation Specialist
I’m not gonna even.
Bart Ehrman
Paul wanted people to have faith in Christ but he did not want people to convert to Judaism.
Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy
Paul has no opinion, then, on Queen Helena, an important figure in Jerusalem during that time, who converted to Judaism.
Steefen said
Bart EhrmanPaul did not invent Christianity.
If he invented Christianity, he would not have had anyone to persecute.
Steefen, Argumentation Specialist
I’m not gonna even.
Bart Ehrman
Paul wanted people to have faith in Christ but he did not want people to convert to Judaism.
Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy
Paul has no opinion, then, on Queen Helena, an important figure in Jerusalem during that time, who converted to Judaism.
Her son, Prince/King Izaates also was a proselyte.
I think that there are serious problems here with terminology, and some unfortunate slight of hand is occurring. Dr. Ehrman is saying that Paul did not invent Christianity. Professor Wright is careful to assert that Paul is inventing Christian theology, but even here it seems clear that he is oversimplifying or overstating the case since he seems to be claiming merely that Paul is instrumental in implementing what Jesus started, or at least what Paul believed was what Jesus started. There may be a question of the extent to which Paul is stating his own ideas, and the extent to which he is stating, and admittedly refining to some degree, perhaps necessarily if only by using his own words to do so, Jesus’ teachings. It would be interesting to hear Professor Wright respond directly to the question “did Paul invent Christianity,” but I suspect from hearing that presentation that he would be horrified at the idea he was advocating the notion that Paul invented Christianity as if out of whole cloth. He might, I hope, also ask for a clarification of terminology.
JAS said
I think that there are serious problems here with terminology, and some unfortunate slight of hand is occurring. Dr. Ehrman is saying that Paul did not invent Christianity. Professor Wright is careful to assert that Paul is inventing Christian theology, but even here it seems clear that he is oversimplifying or overstating the case since he seems to be claiming merely that Paul is instrumental in implementing what Jesus started, or at least what Paul believed was what Jesus started. There may be a question of the extent to which Paul is stating his own ideas, and the extent to which he is stating, and admittedly refining to some degree, perhaps necessarily if only by using his own words to do so, Jesus’ teachings. It would be interesting to hear Professor Wright respond directly to the question “did Paul invent Christianity,” but I suspect from hearing that presentation that he would be horrified at the idea he was advocating the notion that Paul invented Christianity as if out of whole cloth. He might, I hope, also ask for a clarification of terminology.
Paul did not invent Enoch, Son of Man, elevated by God to archangel status, the Chosen one to judge each human. So, no, Paul did not invent Christianity out of whole cloth (with no other basis). That does not take away from Josephus telling us Paul’s invention of Christianity was another sad calamity.
See
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Comments 68 through 72
Bart Ehrman, you would not be able to persuade Josephus that Paul was not a major contributor to the invention of Christianity.
– Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
Robert said
Steefen said
That does not take away from Josephus telling us Paul’s invention of Christianity was another sad calamity.
Of course Josephus never says anything about this, aside from a bizarre allegorical reading. Whose theory is that again, Joseph Atwell perhaps?
You have not proven it is a bizarre allegorical reading. Quality grading is not done by throwing out a disparaging adjective.
What kind of professor would do that? Answer: a poor professor.
I would be an excellent professor, one who has to read essays of a wide range of students, ascertaining the essence of the content of their essays, regardless if that student is writing at a remedial level, at a college level, at a professor’s level, at an award-winning level.
Joseph Atwill, not Joseph Atwell.
I am a better editor than Joseph Atwill. When I read Atwill’s book, I thought to myself, this book needs to read better. I carefully reviewed each chapter and graded each chapter. I went to Josephus’ work and read the passages and studied them, researched them, considered what Atwill concluded, made my own case (written better than Atwill’s case).
Some of Atwill’s case presented in all of the chapters of his book were not salvageable by me. It is important to write well throughout one’s entire manuscript for a work.
Some say Spielberg’s West Side Story is better than the original. I am sure my remake of Atwill’s treatment surpasses the original.
JAS said
Even if it could be stated fairly that Josephus said such a thing, what would that prove?
It certainly can be fairly stated the three passages appear in Josephus’s Antiquities.
I’ve already stated one conclusion:
Josephus gave us sufficient content that Paul was a major contributor to the invention of Christian creed, planks of which are in the Testimonium Flavianum.
What is proven? Josephus specifically tell his readers: the planks of Christian creed are a sad calamity befalling the Jews. He goes on to explain how: it took obscene advantage of the gullibility of pious people in the second passage, and in the third passage, it took financial advantage of the gullibility or pious people.
Use your reading comprehension skills and let us know how far it takes you before you cannot fully answer what it proves.
Steefen said
JAS said
Even if it could be stated fairly that Josephus said such a thing, what would that prove?
It certainly can be fairly stated the three passages appear in Josephus’s Antiquities.
I’ve already stated one conclusion:
Josephus gave us sufficient content that Paul was a major contributor to the invention of Christian creed, planks of which are in the Testimonium Flavianum.
What is proven? Josephus specifically tell his readers: the planks of Christian creed are a sad calamity befalling the Jews. He goes on to explain how: it took obscene advantage of the gullibility of pious people in the second passage, and in the third passage, it took financial advantage of the gullibility or pious people.
Use your reading comprehension skills and let us know how far it takes you before you cannot fully answer what it proves.
But it doesn’t prove anything other than the idea that Josephus made a statement. Does Josephus have special credibility? Does he perhaps have an ax to grind? Use some critical thinking skills, well beyond mere reading skills.
Robert said
Steefen said
Bart Ehrman
Paul did not invent Christianity.
If he invented Christianity, he would not have had anyone to persecute.
Steefen, Argumentation Specialist
I’m not gonna even.
You’re not gonna even … what? Do you reject Paul’s claim that he persecuted the early followers of Jesus?
I’m not going to even entertain such a faulty construction of argument that also lacks definition of terms and even evidence of Jesus of the late 20s / early 30s given a death sentence by Pilate.
You asked, what. The answer to what is: a faulty construction of argument that also lacks definition of terms and even evidence of Jesus of the late 20s / early 30s given a death sentence by Pilate.
Number 1
Neither Mark, Matthew, Luke, or John was written at the time of the alleged persecution. The group persecuted cannot be established and separated from the literary category of historical fiction (a Jesus who does miracles, a Jesus who was not slain as Pilate had the Samaritan Redeemer slain, a dead Jesus, in a narrative of historical fiction, leaves his grave, etc.; a false prophet Jesus who violated Leviticus 17: 10-11 with his Last Supper and by scripture, for his violation got himself and his disciples excommunicated from the community of God’s people and God turned his face away from him and his disciples).
Number 2
A Paul persecuting followers of Jesus, a Paul who cannot start with the followers of Jesus at the Temple but walks over them to ask religious authorities to get letters to apprehend Christians in Damascus. Paul walks by the followers of Jesus again after he allegedly gets permission. Authorities do not tell him to start with the original followers in the city, in the Temple of the religious authorities. Furthermore, those authority figures do not agree because they do not tell him to follow their lead as they themselves have prevented the Jesus followers from meeting at the Temple. Paul did not offer assistance in rounding up Jesus’ original disciples in Jerusalem who met at Solomon’s Colonnade, a portico (Acts 5: 12) and Paul did not offer assistance in rounding up James, “the brother of the Lord.” The religious authorities did not tell Paul to start in Galilee before going further north to Damascus.
Number 3
Acts 8:1, great persecution, larger than Saul’s personal crusade? Where is the historical account? A great persecution would be larger than a religious leader turning over some tables at Passover. What did James say about this great persecution? What did James say about the stoning of Stephen? What did Pontius Pilate do about a great persecution in his territory?
Number 4
Jesus of the late 20s C.E. is a future composite character of historical fiction.
Number 5
The religious authorities who supposedly wanted Jesus followers rounded up did what after the person they sent to Damascus did not complete his assignment?
There was no Jesus, there were no followers, there was no Jesus slain or crucified by order of Pontius Pilate because Jews demanded the death penalty for Jesus, there were no followers in Damascus.
Robert
Do you reject Paul’s claim that he persecuted the early followers of Jesus?
Steefen
Make your case that there was a historical Saul who persecuted who exactly. He did not persecute St. Stephen. Name one person he persecuted. Name an incident where he may have burned down a synagogue of Jesus followers? Define persecution in your resolution and give external evidence corroborating the persecution.
Steefen said
. . . Name one person he [Saul/Paul] persecuted. Name an incident where he may have burned down a synagogue of Jesus followers? Define persecution in your resolution and give external evidence corroborating the persecution.
The inherent ignorance of this request would be hard to quantify. You make utterly absurd claims, based on virtually nothing, and then demand hard evidence of others.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
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