If you read or listen to Carrier, you see that he rejects what he calls “crank scholarship.” He doesn’t run with every wild idea. He even comes to the idea that there is a 30% chance that there was a historical kernel around which the Jesus myth formed. I know that Carrier and Ehrman have bad blood between them, but we shouldn’t need to choose one or the other. The arguments are what the arguments are, and I think that Carrier makes a better argument for mythicism than Ehrman does for historicity.
Whatever “bad blood” that exists between Ehrman and Carrier is the result of Carrier’s semi-hysterical personal attacks on Ehrman when his book came out. I’ve examined the claims of mythicists as well as anyone and to me it’s a historical question not a faith question. Mythicism is full of ad hoc hypotheses, tortured reinterpretations, and a clueless willingness to speak across whole fields of expertise without bothering to find out what the current thinking is in those areas of expertise. Historicism (is that what we call it?) is not without problems – there’s a ton we’ll never know – but it is the simplest explanation that accounts for what we do know. There’s no need to choose of course but then there’s no need to try to do history either.
jahare
If one believes that almost everything said about him is mythology, do you not believe that we are presented with a 90% myth?
Steefen
I, for one, do not hold to the line of reasoning that Jesus is 51%+ myth.
Jesus is a Greco-Roman invention, a composite character of historical fiction.
One of the characters in the Jesus of the gospels is Julius Caesar. Another is Caesar Augustus.
Another character in the composite Jesus is Jesus of Galilee who led the Battle of Galilee in the Jewish Revolt.
Moses is Jesus. Enoch, the Son of Man is Jesus.
I like significant content in Dennis MacDonald’s Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark.
Jesus outside of the New Testament by Van Voorst mentions a king who was killed. That probably was Menahem Josephus mentions.
Steve Campbell
Richard Carrier is mentioned in my book, Historical Accuracy.
Here is the quote:
Euhemerization of god-men by placing them in historical contexts was commonplace in antiquity.
Richard Carrier. On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt. Chapter 12: “Conclusion, 3. What we Should Conclude,” p. 609.
Steefen
I, for one, do not hold to the line of reasoning that Jesus is 51%+ myth.
Jesus is a Greco-Roman invention, a composite character of historical fiction.
Correction/rewording
Jesus is a Greco-Roman construction of victors [of the First Jewish Roman War] getting to write history and historical fiction, a composite character of historical fiction.
Steefen
There are insufficient details of Sauline persecution.
Where does information about persecution appear?
Google, where is information about Paul’s Persecution of Christians / biblehub Paul’s Persecution of Christians in his letters
Undisputed Authorship of the Pauline Epistles according to Wikipedia – Authentic Pauline Epistles
Galatians 1:13
Philippians 3:6
Undisputed and Disputed Authorship of the Pauline Epistles according to Wikpedia – Deutero-Pauline Epistles, May Be Authentic
1 Corinthians 15:9
= = =
Acts 8: 1-3, 9: 1-2, 13: 9
= = = = = = = = = = = =
Again, the question; Does anyone have external evidence of Saul persecuting the followers of Jesus?
= = = = = = = = = = = =
JAS
Now a few people thinks, or maybe just one person thinks, that Paul may not have done the terrible things he claimed he did because . . . . well, just because.
Steefen
Well, let’s see about that.
Quora shows the question: How extensive was the Apostle Paul’s persecution of Christians?
Otto Isaacs commented:
Question details: Was his reference to persecuting Christians similar to the way Christian’s on Quora say they “used to be an atheist”? i.e. Did he exaggerate it simply because it gave his conversion experience more credibility, in the same way Christians use the phrase “used to be an atheist”?
It is very, very, very unlikely that Paul (an initiate) ever persecuted anyone. That part of his “biography” is almost, nay, surely, invented to serve theological purposes.
Steefen
As I posited: manipulation. How can I get people to convert to following my movement of Gentile Christianity?
Let me think.
I want people to convert.
I’ve got it: claim to be a convert, myself.
Somebody asked:
Quora, When the Apostle Paul persecuted Christians, did he actually kill any of them?
One Answer:
He condoned the killing of Stephen.
Steefen
He didn’t throw the first stone, he only watched the coats. Get outta here.
One Answer (continued):
He seems to have been a bounty hunter.
Steefen
He didn’t sponsor the persecution. He doesn’t bear full responsibility.
Steefen, Argumentation Specialist
Last call. We have a confession from Saul/Paul. We have no victim/s.
Did he kill someone?
Did he attack Jesus’ mother?
Did he burn down Jesus’ favorite synagogue in Galilee? Did he burn down Peter’s favorite synagogue?
Those who attacked and killed Stephen? Was that for Stephen being a follower of Jesus or for Stephen’s speech?
Answer: the content of his speech incensed/enraged members of the Sanhedrin to stone him. See: Acts 7:52-53.
He was not stoned for following a teacher or a healer. He was stoned for accusing members of the Sanhedrin of being murders of the Righteous One.
Last call: put forth the extent of damage. It is highly possible you have a manipulative evangelist making up a story that he converted so other people can convert to his movement.
JAS said
Speaking of “crank scholarship” . . .
Being lazy instead of getting to work.
There is no work for you to do. There is nothing you can present.
Robert insists: look at the letters. He doesn’t show information to support the claim of persecution.
A judge is not supposed to build cases for lazy lawyers who think they are going to get paid for saying someone wrongfully called someone insane or for someone heckling “crank scholarship.”
What? We pulled Galatians, Philippians, 1 Corinthians. Tell the court what is in them explaining who the victim/s were and the extent of damage Saul did to them. Even if you stay within the New Testament, a collection of books for belief, tell us where friends of the victims reacted to the persecution–and the court is being very generous by helping you with another avenue to consider.
JAS, Robert said look at the Pauline letters. Get to work and look at the Pauline letters and build your case. If there is nothing there, stop wasting the court’s time. You two loss your case.
Steefen said
Yes, Robert, you and JAS are experts of meaningless when it comes to the real work of historians.
Yes, we have read your posts. That does tend to make one an expert in meaninglessness. Would you really be any less certain of your baseless theory if Paul had given us a list of 5 names that you also could not find mentioned by Josephus? Please.
And Paul would have made it all up because it was such a sweet gig. He was a regular 1st century Joel Osteen, who just knew that little cult was going to swell to take over the world. Even now, he is probably sitting back laughing at the yokels and collecting his royalties. Now tell us about Leperchauns, Steefen.
Robert said
Steefen said
Robert insists: look at the letters. He doesn’t show information to support the claim of persecution. …
JAS, Robert said look at the Pauline letters. Get to work and look at the Pauline letters and build your case. If there is nothing there, stop wasting the court’s time. You two loss your case.
Steefen, I have merely asked you several questions about your views on Paul and why you hold those views. Of course, you’re not obligated to answer my questions, but it might help your case. I’ve already admitted that Paul could be lying about many things, and it is certainly possible that he lied about persecuting earlier Christians, perhaps to bolster a dramatic conversion story. But why do you think it more probable than not that he was lying about that?
Because Dr. Ehrman said Jesus did not have more than a few followers, because there is no external evidence of it happening, because the persecution does not specifically identify victim/s and how the persecution happened, etc., answers given over and over and over and over already.
BDEhrman
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