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Dr. Ehrman,
You’ve seemed to ask the question, Was Jesus the Son of Man or Was a third person the Son of Man. If Paul thought Jesus was coming back, was Paul picking up on, “You will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds”?
Steefen
Google AI
The Apostle Paul describes Jesus’ return to judge the living and the dead in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11.
Dr. Trobisch:
It is called the Christ Movement, not the Jesus Movement.
The experience of Christ replaces the experience of Jesus.
Steefen
Christ is so much more than Jesus.
That reminds me of the thought: All of the Christ Consciousness in humanity is more than the historical Jesus because Christ Consciousness could have many reincarnations.
Even, if we do not think we have to wait for a rebirth then adulthood of that birth, one can achieve Christ Consciousness through lifehood: monasteries, convents, or living a holy life.
The canonical Letters of Paul are a re-edited version of the Marcionite Letters of Paul
What we know of historical Paul comes from the Marcionite version of Pauline Letters.
Steefen:
Until you factor in the Acts of the Apostles (60-90CE).
Well, can you tell that the Marcionite Pauline Letters pre-date Acts of the Apostles?
Prof. Trobisch implied earlier you can look at the Marionite Gospel but you can’t look at the Marcionite Pauline Letters for an answer to a question like that. But I will say this: Marcion was the only one who had a collection of Pauline Letters and that would date 130-140 CE, not (48 to 64).
Pick up the video at 46:57.
The messiah bloodline. A political family.
Jesus and John the Baptist were relatives, and the apostles. They were related to the leaders of Maccabean Revolt. Both were raised together to regain their family political power. Saul was one of the 70 disciples who was kicked out for betrayal after the desertion. He returned for revenge and authority within the apostles after the crucifixion, like how Jesus and John the Baptist returned after their family lost political power after King Herod replaced the Maccabean reign.
Two brothers, like Moses and Aaron who had political power in Egypt but then lost it. Like the founding of Mormonism shortly after 1776. These are families who wanted to create their own state again. Using religion is the most common way.
David referred specifically to the 7 letters of Paul, in the case of which it is impossible to determine whether they are authentic or whether they are a literary form/genre for an invented tradition. Literature itself cannot certify its own authenticity. Detering wrote the same thing, and Bob Price said the same thing in the debate with Bart. This is a truism that cannot break through in biblical scholarship. I do not remember this matter being put this way before.
I am convinced that Trobisch believes the letters are authentic. He was only referring to the state of available information about Paul and the simple fact that both answers are possible.
Detering was convinced that the letters were made up. But the main message in his book is to treat both answers equally.
Bart ridiculed Bob for no reason during the debate. Both opposing paradigms are equally possible.
Biblical scholarship dishonestly sells intuitive opinions without indicating that the opposite answer is equally possible.
By the way.. New version of the draft.
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In Luke 10, Saul is one of the 72 disciples. He’s also the man who gets attacked in the Good Samaritan parable. The Samaritan lawyer is there to possibly press charges against whoever attacked Saul. Jesus refuses to press charges and Saul is resentful because he’s now the first one of the 12 and 72 to “shed blood” but he keeps following Jesus around anyway. He never makes it to the rank of the 12 Apostles, so he takes the matter into his own hands later on.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
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