The NT we have is a politically censored distortion of the rift between Marcion and Arianism according to the Nicene tradition. Jesus versus Paul. Paul versus Peter. Apostolic fathers versus Marcion and Arianism. The Nicene version makes everything a big happy friendly story. Eusebius got whacked by the Arians for his history book.
Changing the order of events to explain how the 72 disciples become the 70. Saul and Stephen are two of the 72. Saul gets shortchanged after being attacked which becomes the Good Samaritan parable. Saul leaves the group and conspires with the Sanhedrin, but continues to follow the Jesus group around as his military orders from the Sanhedrin. Saul was the first to be injured, Stephen was the first to be killed, both events involved Saul’s shedding of blood. This all happens before the betrayal by Judas and crucifixion of Jesus. Saul is part of the Sanhedrin job to steal the body of Jesus from the tomb. He’s the young man that Mary Magdalene sees at the tomb. Saul then goes on rampage to kill both James and Peter, the first popes, before starting his own Church to become pope. The apostles and most of the disciples were all dead before Saul forms his Church and betrays the Sanhedrin. Rome then sends a few legions down to Jerusalem to get the money because the Sanhedrin stopped paying the Caesar tax because the Sanhedrin went bankrupt trying to fund the operations to stop the numerous Messiah groups suspected of treason and insurrection. And one million Jews are killed during the war against Rome and the Messiah groups.
Both opposing paradigms are equally possible.
Many things are possible. But the question is, what is the most likely explanation that fits the facts? Occam’s famous razor dispenses with most conspiracy theories. What we have left are seven letters that share literary style, theology, and reflect a social situation congruent with the developing Christian environment we would expect to find in the 50s of the Common Era. The author was admired enough that a later book was written about his adventures and other writers forged documents in his name assuming his perceived authority.
We are in the same situation with Paul as we are with much, even most, ancient literature. We are forced to glean what we can from the text. Actually we’re in a pretty good place with Paul. Think of all the authors who survive in memory only because they are quoted by others whose work was preserved?
What is more likely?
Is Paul the hero of an epistolary novel more likely or Paul the great theologian, writer and traveler?
Since the biblical scholars themselves move the dating of Acts to the year 100CE, because Luke must have known the Pauline Corpus (This is the conclusion of a multi-year conference of dozens of specialists), is it not the same in the case of Mark?
How is it that Paul (who met with the disciples of Christ) and the other authors of the letters taken together know about the historical Jesus only what the Jewish historian included in two short digressions in the books of Ant18 and Ant20?
Without Paul, there is no Christian environment in the 50s of the 1st century. The letters and gospels appear several dozen years later and fill the information gap resulting from the fact that the first news about Jesus were the scant digressions from Ant.
BTW How to place a picture?
Saul had getaway clothes staged somewhere nearby. When they came to arrest Jesus, Saul sucker punched Peter and a big fight occurred. Saul’s clothes were covered in blood and mud so he took all his clothes off right there and ran away naked to go put on the new clothes. That way Peter won’t recognize him in the dark. Saul goes wandering around town to hide from Peter. Peter follows to go look for Saul and to kill every rooster he could find before sunrise. Peter killed 70 roosters that night but one escaped. It crowed at sunrise.
What happens during the lifetime of Marcion?
The Jews lose the messiah wars which goes against all their prophecy. Therefore that God that gave them the prophecy must be evil.
Also, a good time to add in the Day and Hour Unknown detail after that epic failure of prophecy. Prophets set the time and dates. The day and hour unknown is not a prophecy.
Pilate is mentioned once in the Pauline Corpus in the letter to Titus in 1Ti6:13. The letter to Titus was not in the Marcionite edition of the Pauline Corpus. All the authors of the Pauline letters taken together do not show any greater knowledge of the earthly Christ than is found in TF and the James passage in Ant 18 and Ant 20.
Marcion may have thought that his version of the gospel of Luke was indeed what Paul was referring to as his gospel. This is a later usage of the word gospel as a book describing the life of Jesus found also in some later church writers. It is not the way the word gospel was used by Paul in his letters, nor by Mark or Luke. It is one of the reasons most scholars don’t think Marcion represents one of the earliest receptions of the Pauline corpus or the gospel of Luke.
…………………………………..
For 40 years some Authors edit Paul’s original texts to create the first 7 letters and add the texts of the next 3 letters, consistently avoiding anything about the historical Jesus. Later others add 3 more letters and then a whole bunch of various apocrypha.
And then the consistent silence about the historical Jesus and the gospel.
The whole concept of Paul is attractive because he does not talk about any gospel in detail. He is the archetype of the Great Apostle to whom you can attach any gospel about the historical Jesus or the Gnostic Jesus. The authors of Paul want to create a character who is useful for every story about Jesus, regardless of which one wins on the market. The historical Jesus does not interest them. Their product is Paul.
You take his letters and easily add whatever you want – the historical Jesus, the cosmic Jesus, any myth…
This is nothing more than a deliberate strategy.
This is not a random action for 50-80 years conducted by two or three generations of writers. Pauline Corpus is a book with an invented hero and tradition
picking up at 46:57
Dr. David Trobisch
Paul does not have to exist as a historical person.
It is not true that only the Marcionites read this collection.
“Forgeries are done to prove something is true.”
Marcionite Letter to the Romans has 14 chapters. The canonical Romans has 16 chapters.
The editorial narrative of the canonical Romans is different from Marcionite Romans.
The Marcionite readers would not have known of the content in Chapters 16 and 16 of canonical Romans.
Steefen:
If Acts was written after Paul dies, why doesn’t it include in detail Paul’s death?
Acts ends with Paul preaching at Rome.
I’ve heard this question asked of the gospels but didn’t remember anyone asking this of Acts.
WHAT WE’RE DEALING WITH
Dr. David Trobisch
In the 19th century most scholars in Germany, believed the Old Testament was the oldest book ever written.
Steefen
When the Septuagint was written, it must have been decided how the Mesopotamian creation and flood Myths would be edited to become the Hebrew creation and flood myths.
Dr. David Trobisch
The Marcionite collection, unlike the canonical collection, does not care about proving Jesus is fulfilling the Hebrew Bible. So, you get Iraneus saying Marcion cut such and such out. No, he did not do that. The canonical collection put that in wherever they could.
Steefen
So you’re saying Canonical Luke must have come after Marcionite Luke because you can see the agenda that made Canonical Luke longer in length than Marionite Luke.
pick up at 1:02:24 of 1:12.52
Who was Titus in the Bible?
Answer: a companion of Paul
The Epistle to Titus is one of the three pastoral epistles in the New Testament, historically attributed to Paul the Apostle. It is addressed to Saint Titus and describes the requirements and duties of presbyters/bishops.
Steefen
I thought Paul and Titus knew each other, @Robert.
I was responding to Reply #27 by Jarek.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
1 Guest(s)