Steefen said
Posted on Bart’s section of the website: January 21, 2021 Did Humans Ever Become Divine in Judaism? (Seems unlikely, no?)Bart,
You said, [given 1 Thess 4: 13-18], For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God. Matthew 24: 31 says, And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call.
QUESTION: Given Gal. 4: 14, Jesus with the voice of an archangel because Jesus IS an archangel and Jesus sending out his angels because there are angels under archangels?
Bart
I don’t know. I don’t recall any ancient Christian text that speaks of Christ as an archangel. But if he was thought to be an angel (as some Christains did — including Paul, I think) then he would have been the archangel!
The question of the Christian in society is addressed in the sermon on the mount in Jesus’ comments to the disciples about being the “salt of the earth” and the “light of the world.” (Matthew 5: 13-16) …
There are two Pauline parallels in this case. First, in Philippians 2: 15: “…shine like lights/stars in the world.” … Second, Colossians 4: 5-6: “…Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt…”
Wenham, David. Paul: Follower of Jesus or Founder of Christianity? Chapter 6: Living in Love, p. 254.
Question to Bart,
Given:
Galatians 4: 14
…you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus Himself
1 Thessalonians 4: 16
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God.
Matthew 24: 31
And the Son of Man will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call.
QUESTION:
You said Paul makes the point that Jesus was an angel. (Galatians)
The additional two verses expand Jesus from angel to archangel, yes?
1 Thess says Jesus had the voice of an archangel
Matt says the Son of Man will send out His angels. (Archangels have angels beneath them.)
Answer from Bart
I don’t know. I don’t recall any ancient Christian text that speaks of Christ as an archangel.
But if he was thought to be an angel (as some Christains did — including Paul, I think) then he would have been the archest angel !
= = =
The heading I am seeing for Matthew 21: 31 is “Return of the Son of Man.”
Is that correct? If it is correct, then the Son of Man is no longer segmented into Jesus, 1st person Son of Man and not Jesus, 3rd Person Son of Man.
Yeah , there are very early apocryphal traditions in which Christ is an angel .
For instance : The Book of Mary’s Repose ( Stephen Shoemaker dated the text third century if not even earlier )
In the text , Christ is an angel and Great Cherub of Light
See:
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Robert
after his death he was exalted to an even higher status, essentially being given the name of Yahweh.
Wikipedia
Yahweh[a] was the national god of the kingdoms of Israel (Samaria) and Judah,[1] with origins reaching at least to the early Iron Age and apparently to the Late Bronze Age.[2] In the oldest biblical literature he is a storm-and-warrior deity[3] who leads the heavenly army against Israel’s enemies;[4] at that time the Israelites worshipped him alongside a variety of Canaanite gods and goddesses, including El, Asherah and Baal,[5] but in later centuries El and Yahweh became conflated and El-linked epithets such as El Shaddai came to be applied to Yahweh alone,[6] and other gods and goddesses such as Baal and Asherah were absorbed into the Yahwistic religion.[7]
Graeco-Roman syncretism
Yahweh is frequently invoked in Graeco-Roman magical texts dating from the 2nd century BCE to the 5th century CE, most notably in the Greek Magical Papyri,[13] under the names Iao, Adonai, Sabaoth, and Eloai.[14] In these texts, he is often mentioned alongside traditional Graeco-Roman deities and Egyptian deities.[14] The archangels Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, and Ouriel and Jewish cultural heroes such as Abraham, Jacob, and Moses are also invoked frequently.[94] The frequent occurrence of Yahweh’s name was likely due to Greek and Roman folk magicians seeking to make their spells more powerful through the invocation of a prestigious foreign deity.[95]
Tacitus, John the Lydian, and Cornelius Labeo all identify Yahweh with the Greek god Dionysus.[96] Jews themselves frequently used symbols that were also associated with Dionysus such as kylixes, amphorae, leaves of ivy, and clusters of grapes.[97] In his Quaestiones Convivales, the Greek writer Plutarch writes that the Jews hail their god with cries of “Euoi” and “Sabi”, phrases associated with the worship of Dionysus.[98][99][100]
Steefen, Argumentation Specialist
Robert, what support do you have for your claim?
Where in the New Testament?
Where outside of the New Testament?
It is highly unlikely that Paul was even alive by the time the Gospel of Matthew was written.
But one can see the rich possibility for satire here. There was once an English Literature scholar (whose name escapes me) who submitted a paper on “The influence of Wordsworth on Milton” as a jab at the critical apparatus that had encrusted the studies of these two poets. Of course if you remember your classes in English literature Milton came first.
I can envision some NT scholar in a fit of whimsy writing a paper on “John’s influence on Mark” or “Paul’s influence on Matthew”.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
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