
I imagine that some shepherds have died trying to protect their sheep.
1 Samuel 17 (NIV)
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32 David said to Saul,
“Let no one lose heart on account of this Philistine [Goliath];
your servant will go and fight him.”
33 Saul replied,
“You are not able to go out against this Philistine and fight him;
you are only a young man,
and he has been a warrior from his youth.”
34 But David said to Saul,
“Your servant has been keeping his father’s sheep.
When a lion or a bear came and carried off a sheep from the flock,
35 I went after it, struck it
and rescued the sheep from its mouth.
When it turned on me,
I seized it by its hair, struck it and killed it.
36 Your servant has killed both the lion and the bear;
this uncircumcised Philistine will be like one of them,
because he has defied the armies of the living God.
37 The Lord who rescued me
from the paw of the lion
and the paw of the bear
will rescue me from the hand of this Philistine.”
Saul said to David,
“Go, and the Lord be with you.”

I imagine that some shepherds have died trying to protect their sheep.
I think that Athanasius pushed The Shepherd of Hermas to replace the true shepherd, Jesus ** you do not have permission to see this link **, and labeled him as both a sheep and a lion, while Peter’s epistle states that the devil is a lion 1 Peter 5:8.
- He validated their theology: He essentially told the East, “The end-times framework, the visions, and the two-resurrection mindset found in the Shepherd are perfectly safe and orthodox for beginners to learn.” [** you do not have permission to see this link **]
- He removed their excuse to ban Revelation: Once the East accepted that The Shepherd’s apocalyptic timeline was good for catechumens, they could no longer argue that the Book of Revelation’s similar timeline was a dangerous heresy. [** you do not have permission to see this link **]
By forcing the title of the Shepherd onto an angelic figure in Hermas’s book, Athanasius effectively stripped the title from Jesus in that context, leaving Jesus to be viewed strictly as the sacrificial Lamb and Sheep within the canon he created.

“Peter’s epistle states that the devil is a lion”
Is it bad to compare God to a:
lion?
moth?
Hosea 5 (NIV)
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9 Ephraim will be laid waste
on the day of reckoning.
Among the tribes of Israel
I proclaim what is certain.
10 Judah’s leaders are like those
who move boundary stones.
I will pour out my wrath on them
like a flood of water.
11 Ephraim is oppressed,
trampled in judgment,
intent on pursuing idols.
12 I am like a moth to Ephraim,
like rot to the people of Judah.
…
14 For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
like a great lion to Judah.
I will tear them to pieces and go away;
I will carry them off, with no one to rescue them.
15 Then I will return to my lair
until they have borne their guilt
and seek my face—
in their misery
they will earnestly seek me.”

DavidFord said
“It is not if your god is the devil”
If one’s God _isn’t_ “the devil,”
is it bad to compare that God to a:
lion?
moth?
-
- The Lion as the Devil: In 1 Peter 5:8, the Bible explicitly warns:
“Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.”
- The Moth as God: In Hosea 5:12, God Himself speaks and says:
“I am like a moth to Ephraim, like rot to the people of Judah.”
- The Lion as the Devil: In 1 Peter 5:8, the Bible explicitly warns:

“you think the lion is automatically better”
Not that I know of.
What exact words of mine are you viewing?
“if we look at the actual Biblical text… the lion is used to describe the devil”
In the Bible, is God ever likened to a lion?
“the moth is used to describe God. … The Moth as God: In Hosea 5:12, God Himself speaks and says: ‘I am like a moth to Ephraim, like rot to the people of Judah.’ …the moth represents God working quietly, patiently, and from the inside out”
Do you believe that Hosea 5:12 depicts “God working quietly, patiently, and from the inside out”?

DavidFord said
“Peter’s epistle states that the devil is a lion”
Is it bad to compare God to a:
lion?
moth?
Hosea 5 (NIV)
** you do not have permission to see this link **
9 Ephraim will be laid waste
on the day of reckoning.
Among the tribes of Israel
I proclaim what is certain.
10 Judah’s leaders are like those
who move boundary stones.
I will pour out my wrath on them
like a flood of water.
11 Ephraim is oppressed,
trampled in judgment,
intent on pursuing idols.
12 I am like a moth to Ephraim,
like rot to the people of Judah.
…
14 For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
like a great lion to Judah.
I will tear them to pieces and go away;
I will carry them off, with no one to rescue them.
15 Then I will return to my lair
until they have borne their guilt
and seek my face—
in their misery
they will earnestly seek me.”
I think that is their perception God is as lion or moth, when in fact it is wrong to identify our God with such terms. The devil is as a lion, and the moth has no authority in the heavenly kingdom.
The lion is the devil according to ** you do not have permission to see this link **, and the moth is the false god. Or, if you prefer that is their [wrong] perception only. What do you think? For me, it was interesting when you offered moth to replace lion, here:
DavidFord said
“It is not if your god is the devil”
If one’s God _isn’t_ “the devil,”
is it bad to compare that God to a:
lion?
moth?
It is bad from my perspective, but HOSEA is pointing out theirs.

“What do you think?”
It’s all fine by me.
“their perception God is as lion or moth, when in fact it is wrong to identify our God with such terms”
Is it OK to liken Jesus to bread?
John 6:35 (CEV)
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Jesus replied:
I am the bread that gives life!
No one who comes to me will ever be hungry.
No one who has faith in me will ever be thirsty.

DavidFord said
“What do you think?”
It’s all fine by me.
Don’t you have an opinion or a point of view?
“their perception God is as lion or moth, when in fact it is wrong to identify our God with such terms”
Is it OK to liken Jesus to bread?
John 6:35 (CEV)
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Jesus replied:
I am the bread that gives life!
No one who comes to me will ever be hungry.
No one who has faith in me will ever be thirsty.
We, as Christians, have to favor Jesus’ words over any other narrative.

“have an opinion or a point of view?”
I have lots of opinions.
“favor Jesus’ words over any other narrative”
Is it OK to draw a parallel between Jesus and a lifted up serpent?
John 3:14 (KJV)
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And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

DavidFord said
“have an opinion or a point of view?”
I have lots of opinions.
“favor Jesus’ words over any other narrative”
Is it OK to draw a parallel between Jesus and a lifted up serpent?
John 3:14 (KJV)
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And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Absolutely, and that is my point, he himself made the comparison!
When you look strictly at the words that came directly out of Jesus’s own mouth in the Gospels, he completely rejects the passive, sacrificial “Lamb” identity. He never identifies with animals meant for the slaughterhouse or the butcher’s knife.
Apart from the Hen trying to gather her chicks under her wings, Jesus only explicitly identifies himself with one other animal:
The Living Serpent of Healing
In the Gospel of John, Jesus names his own cosmic function by identifying with the Serpent of the wilderness:
“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up.” (** you do not have permission to see this link **)
Dave, please read my essey, because I have explained everything :

“I have the same problem with Universalism as I do with Annihilationism. If God is going to actively engage with reality then why doesn’t he?”
Colossians 1 (NIV)
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15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For in him all things were created:
things in heaven and on earth,
visible and invisible,
whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities;
all things have been created through him and for him.
17 He is before all things,
and in him all things hold together.
“If everyone is going to be saved… then what’s he waiting for?”
For people to _want_ “to be saved”?
“What’s the point of all this suffering in the meantime?”
Beats me.
Some people think they’ve learned a lot from their suffering, and learned things that they would _never_ have known had they never suffered.
“Final bliss or final destruction is not going to undo what is being done now!”
If all was always blissful, would it be possible to extend forgiveness?

Paul E. Billheimer, _Don’t Waste Your Sorrows: Finding God’s Purpose in the Midst of Pain_ (1977)
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Page 50 — How often one is tempted to question, even mourn the years of disability, invalidism, and pain suffered by saints such as Madame Guyon, Fanny Crosby, Amy Carmichael, George Matheson, and others, out of whose suffering God distilled sweet comfort, healing, and strength for millions of fainting pilgrims.
God’s frequent transmutation of sorrow into blessing for others is beautifully expressed in these lines:
Page 85 — According to our thesis, life is intended to be an education in agape love.
All circumstances, whether of joy or sorrow, which are permitted to come to a child of God are for the purpose of teaching and maturing him in the love which is the prerequisite for rulership in the ultimate economy of God.
This world is a laboratory in which those destined for the throne are learning by actual practice to be governed by the law of love, which principle they will administer in the ultimate social order.
Page 112 — Many excellent writers justify suffering on the basis of its value in time and the contribution it makes to character and the kingdom in the here and now.
There is much to be said for this viewpoint.
Volumes have been written concerning the value of tribulation and sorrow in the building of character and the fashioning of a meritorious life style.
In one of his books, J. R. Miller has expressed this faith beautifully thus:
“We do not know how much we owe to suffering.
Many of the richest blessings that have come down to us from the past are the fruit of sorrow and pain.”

“What a world of privilege evidenced by these quotes! Go tell it to the parents of a child diagnosed with cancer”
Is there “a world of privilege” here?:
Susan Angel Miller, “Loss, Grief, and Post-traumatic Growth” (2019)
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When our seemingly healthy 14-year-old daughter Laura died within days of being diagnosed with a cancerous brain tumor, my husband Ron and I were shocked and distraught.
Our sheltered family life in Bayside wasn’t supposed to unfold this way.
We were overcome by the thought of never seeing Laura again and the prospect of raising our two younger daughters in a world we no longer understood or wanted to inhabit;
we struggled with how to react as well as how others would expect us to behave in our new, unwanted identity — as parents of a child who had died.
Thankfully, the world we still inhabited was our familiar Jewish Milwaukee — a community which shared in our disbelief and grief, comforted us, and came to our aid during our darkest days.
Our strength deepened when we were told that Laura’s liver had saved a woman’s life.
We eventually met Trish and have since developed an exceptional relationship with her.
The miraculous impact of our family’s decision to donate Laura’s organs gave us purpose, comfort and a newfound sense of stability.
When friends commented on how well we were managing, I remember feeling bewildered and even a little guilty.
We’d suffered two harrowing incidents, yet we were not only doing okay, but better than okay.
We’d become increasingly more empathetic, grateful for the blessings we still had in our life;
we were determined to live in the moment rather than fearing the future.
We refused to sacrifice our daughters’ lives, or ours, to what couldn’t be undone.
My bewilderment at our doing “better than expected” decreased after learning — quite by accident — about the concept of post-traumatic growth.
Our family was not alone in surviving — and even thriving — following trauma.
The research, in fact, shows that the majority of survivors will experience at least one element of positive emotional growth in the wake of trauma.
Factors such as childhood stability, a positive outlook, sense of spirituality and supportive relationships correlate to a victim’s likelihood of displaying resilience or even bouncing back higher than before.
Survivors, of course, shouldn’t be judged if they don’t experience positive effects on a specific timetable, or even at all.
And, the survivor almost always would never have wanted the bad event to have occurred in the first place, regardless of any subsequent growth.
PTG is not an either/or phenomenon.
Emotional growth and ongoing distress often, in fact, occur simultaneously.
For us, no amount of growth could ever make up for losing Laura.
…
Discovering the prevalence of PTG encouraged me to write a book about my experiences — to dispel the myth that humans are destined to crumble when faced with life’s inevitable adversities.
I truly believe that we’re all stronger than we think — especially with friends, family and community by our side.
Susan Angel Miller is a career volunteer.
She participates in an annual memorial walk in honor of her daughter, Laura.
She leads presentations on post-traumatic growth, personal relationship building skills, and organ donor advocacy.
Susan received her undergraduate degree in political science and MBA from Loyala University in Chicago.
She is married to her exceptionally supportive and resilient husband Ron;
they are the proud parents of Sara, Rachel and their forever beloved Laura.
She is the author of _Permission to Thrive: My Journey from Grief to Growth_.
Author’s Website: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
====================
amazon.com/Permission-Thrive-Journey-Grief-Growth/dp/173249603X/
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