Just so tragic. Words can never do justice.
I feel the whole “lesson learned” is just a way to try to make sense of the suffering.
I was three pounds at birth. Nobody thought I’d live. And for years it was touch and go. I’d get fevers so high the only thing my mom and dad could do was to put me in a bathtub full of cold water and ice cubes to lower the temperature.
I went through quite a lot in my early years. However, I don’t see any lessons. I have a strong will to survive or was just lucky or my parents had the means to provide me care. I’ve always been convinced if I’d been poor, I’d have died.
“what lesson did the daughter learn? How did she grow?”
I dunno.
What lessons (if any) did this guy learn, and how (if at all) did he grow?
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habingfamilyfuneralhome.com/obituary/michael-mike-granata
Message from Mike:
“Many nurses and non-nursing staff begged me and my wife to get the truth out to the public about the Covid-19 vaccines because the truth of deaths from the vaccine was being hidden within the medical profession.
I promised I would get the message out.
So, here is my message:
I was afraid of getting the vaccine for fear that I might die.
At the insistence of my doctor, I gave in to pressure to get vaccinated.
On August 17th I received the Moderna vaccine and starting feeling ill three days later.
I never recovered but continued to get worse.
I developed multisystem inflammation and multisystem failure that medical professionals could not stop.
My muscles disappeared as if to disintegrate.
I was in ICU for several weeks and stabbed with needles up to 24 times a day for those several weeks, while also receiving 6 or 7 IVs at the same time (continuously).
It was constant torture that I cannot describe.
I was no longer treated as a human with feelings and a life.
I was nothing more than a covid vaccine human guinea pig and the doctors excited to participate in my fascinating progression unto death.
If you want to know more, please ask my wife.
I wished I would have never gotten vaccinated.
If you are not vaccinated, don’t do it unless you are ready to suffer and die.”
“for years it was touch and go.
I’d get fevers so high the only thing my mom and dad could do was to put me in a bathtub full of cold water and ice cubes to lower the temperature.
I went through quite a lot in my early years. …
I’ve always been convinced if I’d been poor, I’d have died”
What influence (if any) did your experience have on your attitude toward people who are:
poor?
infirm?
What lessons (if any) did Matt learn, and how (if at all) did he grow?
Daniel Hallock, _Six Months to Live: Learning from a Young Man with Cancer_ (2015)
“I wouldn’t trade my life for anyone else’s.
If I could choose not to have cancer, and continue my life as it was, I wouldn’t do it.”
– Matt Gauger.
David I have a problem with the wisdom that requires other people suffer. I’m not that special. Nor do I want to be.
My point is pretty straightforward. Future bliss does not undo present suffering. It sure as hell doesn’t compensate for it. Unless of course like Job you’re satisfied with new children, new wealth, new lands to replace the old.
If we operate under the assumption that human beings are fundamentally replaceable, or that we simply read the same data and cycle through the identical human experiences, then the entire point of existence shifts. True utility does not lie in the mechanical repetition of shared facts, but in the radical act of taking a standpoint—if one has the courage to take a standpoint at all.
Crucially, establishing this standpoint is not an attempt to relativize human suffering or historical pain. On the contrary, compassion itself is a matter of perspective. Compassion requires a stable, unwavering vantage point from which to perceive, honor, and respond to trauma. When systems distort our shared frameworks to enforce violence, they do not just alter concepts—they alter our capacity for empathy by breaking our perspective. To fight for a true, uncompromised baseline of understanding is to restore the precise perspective from which genuine compassion becomes possible.
“I have a problem with the wisdom that requires other people suffer”
Who or what advocates “the wisdom that requires other people suffer”?
In the realm of biology, do you believe that there’s a requirement that particular animals suffer?
“I’m not that special”
Are you unique?
“Future bliss does not undo present suffering”
Makes sense.
What happens tomorrow can’t change what happened yesterday.
“It sure as hell doesn’t compensate for it”
If something is “sure as hell,” how sure is it?
In your view, is there an afterlife, and if so, do some people experience a hellish environment in their afterlife?
“Unless of course like Job you’re satisfied with new children, new wealth, new lands to replace the old”
Reference that he was “satisfied with new children, new wealth, new lands to replace the old”?
Did Early Christians Believe in Reincarnation? – Bart D. Ehrman
light edits, 26:07+
I will say, though, that there’s not so much a move toward reincarnation– although some people are moving that way– but the bigger move is towards some other kinds of universalism.
Because in a way, Origen’s doctrine of reincarnation was a way of expressing how God’s power _ultimately_ will dominate, that you cannot stop God.
You might try, you might resist, but you can’t, and in the end, you too will be convinced.
And in Origen’s view, God’s not _forcing_ you to agree.
He’s not.
It just, over time, after a few million ages, you’re going to realize you’re wrong, because you _are_ wrong, and so God’s being merciful.
But this modern universalist movement is really a lot more about that, it’s not just for God to say,
‘You died, now time’s up’– boom– ‘heaven or hell– you don’t get more chances.’
‘Why not after death? Why isn’t God merciful? Why does he torture you for trillions of years for 20 years of sin? That just doesn’t make any sense.’
And so people are moving toward more of a universalist model– even Evangelical Christians– many I know Evangelical thinkers apologists theologians, who are moving in that direction.
DavidFord said
Did Early Christians Believe in Reincarnation? – Bart D. Ehrman
light edits, 26:07+
I will say, though, that there’s not so much a move toward reincarnation– although some people are moving that way– but the bigger move is towards some other kinds of universalism.
Because in a way, Origen’s doctrine of reincarnation was a way of expressing how God’s power _ultimately_ will dominate, that you cannot stop God.
You might try, you might resist, but you can’t, and in the end, you too will be convinced.
And in Origen’s view, God’s not _forcing_ you to agree.
He’s not.
It just, over time, after a few million ages, you’re going to realize you’re wrong, because you _are_ wrong, and so God’s being merciful.
But this modern universalist movement is really a lot more about that, it’s not just for God to say,
‘You died, now time’s up’– boom– ‘heaven or hell– you don’t get more chances.’
‘Why not after death? Why isn’t God merciful? Why does he torture you for trillions of years for 20 years of sin? That just doesn’t make any sense.’
And so people are moving toward more of a universalist model– even Evangelical Christians– many I know Evangelical thinkers apologists theologians, who are moving in that direction.
I’ve sometimes wondered if, in the concept of being tortured for all time, if at some point time does end and one enters eternity, or something like that. Like Heaven is beyond time or something.
Or one needs to evolve and reincarnate out of “hell”, into or back into the Light, or one keeps reincarnating over and over again until one finds their way out.
I’m not saying I believe any or all of this. I’m just putting the ideas out there and on the table.
If you accept what seems to be the case, that the earliest Jesus movement was a Jewish apocalyptic sect, then this would seem to mitigate against a belief in reincarnation since they looked forward to a final bodily resurrection into an earthly Kingdom. Later, as the movement became full of pagan converts, then maybe reincarnation entered the mix. Origen seems to have believed in the pre-existence of the soul. Of course he was later condemned as a heretic.
“what seems to be the case, that the earliest Jesus movement was a Jewish apocalyptic sect”
What’s involved in being an “apocalyptic sect”?
“Origen seems to have believed in the pre-existence of the soul”
Did he believe that Jesus pre-existed before Jesus was on earth?
“he was later condemned as a heretic”
Over what? (believing “in the pre-existence of the soul”?)
Elizabeth Clare Prophet, _Reincarnation: The Missing Link In Christianity_ (1997), 414pp.
Geddes MacGregor, _Reincarnation in Christianity: A New Vision of the Role of Rebirth in Christian Thought_ (1978), 190pp.
Quincy Howe Jr., _Reincarnation for the Christian_ (1974), 112pp.
_A Course in Miracles: Combined Volume_, 3rd ed., “Manual for Teachers” (2007)
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Section 24
Is Reincarnation So?
In the ultimate sense, reincarnation is impossible. There is no past or future, and the idea of birth into a body has no meaning either once or many times. Reincarnation cannot, then, be true in any real sense. Our only question should be, “Is the concept helpful?” And that depends, of course, on what it is used for. If it is used to strengthen the recognition of the eternal nature of life, it is helpful indeed. Is any other question about it really useful in lighting up the way? Like many other beliefs, it can be bitterly misused. At least, such misuse offers preoccupation and perhaps pride in the past. At worst, it induces inertia in the present. In between, many kinds of folly are possible.
Reincarnation would not, under any circumstances, be the problem to be dealt with <now>. If it were responsible for some of the difficulties the individual faces now, his task would still be only to escape from them now. If he is laying the groundwork for a future life, he can still work out his salvation only now. To some, there may be comfort in the concept, and if it heartens them its value is self-evident. It is certain, however, that the way to salvation can be found by those who believe in reincarnation and by those who do not. The idea cannot, therefore, be regarded as essential to the curriculum. There is always some risk in seeing the present in terms of the past. There is always some good in any thought which strengthens the idea that life and the body are not the same.
For our purposes, it would not be helpful to take any definite stand on reincarnation. A teacher of God should be as helpful to those who believe in it as to those who do not. If a definite stand were required of him, it would merely limit his usefulness, as well as his own decision making. Our course is not concerned with any concept that is not acceptable to anyone, regardless of his formal beliefs. His ego will be enough for him to cope with, and it is not the part of wisdom to add sectarian controversies to his burdens. Nor would there be an advantage in his premature acceptance of the course merely because it advocates a long-held belief of his own.
It cannot be too strongly emphasized that this course aims at a complete reversal of thought. When this is finally accomplished, issues such as the validity of reincarnation become meaningless. Until then, they are likely to be merely controversial. The teacher of God is, therefore, wise to step away from all such questions, for he has much to teach and learn apart from them. He should both learn and teach that theoretical issues but waste time, draining it away from its appointed purpose. If there are aspects to any concept or belief that will be helpful, he will be told about it. He will also be told how to use it. What more need he know?
Does this mean that the teacher of God should not believe in reincarnation himself, or discuss it with others who do? The answer is, certainly not! If he does believe in reincarnation, it would be a mistake for him to renounce the belief unless his internal Teacher so advised. And this is most unlikely. He might be advised that he is misusing the belief in some way that is detrimental to his pupil’s advance or his own. Reinterpretation would then be recommended, because it is necessary. All that must be recognized, however, is that birth was not the beginning, and death is not the end. Yet even this much is not required of the beginner. He need merely accept the idea that what he knows is not necessarily all there is to learn. His journey has begun.
The emphasis of this course always remains the same;–it is at this moment that complete salvation is offered you, and it is at this moment that you can accept it. This is still your one responsibility. Atonement might be equated with total escape from the past and total lack of interest in the future. Heaven is here. There is nowhere else. Heaven is now. There is no other time. No teaching that does not lead to this is of concern to God’s teachers. All beliefs will point to this if properly interpreted. In this sense, it can be said that their truth lies in their usefulness. All beliefs that lead to progress should be honored. This is the sole criterion this course requires. No more than this is necessary.
Reincarnation is discussed in several places across the *Conversations with God* series by Neale Donald Walsch.
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The most direct and detailed treatments appear in *Book 1* and especially *Book 3*, with further exploration in the later dialogue book *Home with God: In a Life That Never Ends*.
### *Conversations with God, Book 1*
Near the end of the book (around page 138 in many editions / in the section answering remaining questions from the author’s original list), Walsch asks:
> “Is there such a thing as reincarnation? How many past lives have I had? What was I in them? Is ‘karmic debt’ a reality?”
God’s reply affirms reincarnation as real, states that the author has had 647 past lives (this being the 648th), and describes having been “everything” (king/queen, serf, teacher/student, male/female, warrior/pacifist, etc.).
It explicitly rejects the idea of karmic *debt* (as something that must be repaid) while allowing that prior experiences can influence present desires and choices.
### *Conversations with God, Book 3*
This contains the most extended discussion.
– **Chapter 7** is frequently described as providing an in-depth exploration of reincarnation.
– The dialogue addresses religious claims that reincarnation is a false doctrine, explains why some traditions reject it, and frames reincarnation as fitting the larger purpose of the soul (and of God) experiencing and expressing itself “lifetime after lifetime.”
– It discusses free choice in returning to physical form, the soul’s ability to “start over” or recycle through forms, the non-linear nature of time (souls existing in multiple places/times), and related ideas such as soul partners and “past lives” being aspects of a larger soul.
– Later sections (including around Chapter 8) reaffirm that “Reincarnation is a fact” and that one may return to mortal form whenever and however one wishes.
### *Home with God: In a Life That Never Ends*
This later book focuses on the process of death and the afterlife.
It treats death as a change of address / process of re-identification rather than an ending, describes stages the soul moves through, and discusses the voluntary choice to return (or not) to physicality via reincarnation.
Related themes include the soul retaining broader awareness across lifetimes (while the mind typically “forgets”), the possibility of guidance from loved ones even if they have reincarnated, and the soul’s freedom in choosing further physical experiences.
### Broader context in the series
Reincarnation is presented as voluntary (not obligatory), part of the soul’s evolutionary process of remembering and experiencing its divine nature, and compatible with the idea that time and space are illusions.
There is no traditional karmic debt or punishment; prior lives simply contribute to the soul’s ongoing creation and experience.
The topic also surfaces in Walsch’s later writings, interviews, and responses to readers, often referencing or expanding on the core books.
Exact page numbers can vary slightly by edition (hardcover, paperback, international, etc.), so searching within an electronic version for “reincarnation,” “past lives,” or the specific questions above is the most reliable way to locate the passages.
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grok.com/share/bGVnYWN5_dae26869-16e5-4bc3-876e-b8de0fd3a7df
**Origen of Alexandria (c. 185–254 AD)** developed one of the most distinctive and influential (and later controversial) eschatologies in early Christianity.
His views appear especially in *De Principiis* (*On First Principles*), biblical commentaries, and homilies.
They combine scriptural interpretation (notably Acts 3:21 and 1 Corinthians 15:24–28), Platonic philosophy, and a strong emphasis on God’s goodness, free will, and pedagogical justice.
### Core Doctrine: Apokatastasis (Universal Restoration)
The centerpiece is *apokatastasis pantōn* — the eventual restoration of all rational creatures to God.
Origen taught that in the end God will be “all in all” (1 Cor 15:28).
This means the complete abolition of evil and the return of every rational being (humans, angels, and even the devil and demons) to their original state of union with God.
– Evil has no independent substance; it is a privation or “cooling” of the soul’s love for God.
Because it is finite, it cannot endure forever.
– Punishment after death (including the “eternal fire”) is medicinal and purifying, not purely retributive or endless.
Its duration and intensity are proportional to the soul’s need for correction.
– Restoration occurs gradually, through successive ages or worlds if necessary, via education, free choice, and divine grace.
It is not coercive;
free will remains essential.
Origen presented this more as a reasoned hope or speculative possibility grounded in Scripture and the nature of God than as a rigid dogma.
### Related Elements of His Eschatology
– **Pre-existence and fall of souls**: Rational souls (minds) were originally created equal and free, living in contemplation of God.
Through satiety or free choice they “cooled” and fell.
Their embodiment and ranking (angels, humans, demons) reflect the degree of that fall.
The material world serves as a school for rehabilitation.
– **Resurrection**: Origen affirmed the resurrection of the dead as part of the Church’s rule of faith.
The risen body is transformed and spiritualized (suited to the soul’s purified state), though the exact nature of that body (ethereal, spherical in some interpretations, or otherwise glorified) was debated even in antiquity and later became a point of controversy.
– **Judgment and intermediate state**: There is a judgment based on deeds.
Souls experience reward or purifying punishment after death.
The righteous progress toward fuller knowledge and likeness to God;
the wicked undergo corrective suffering.
– **End like the beginning (but perfected)**: The final state resembles the original pure condition of rational creatures, yet it is more secure.
Creatures attain the full “likeness” of God (building on the “image” of Gen 1:26–27) through experience, freedom exercised rightly, and grace.
History is educational and purposeful rather than purely cyclical.
– **Multiple ages**: Purification may require successive worlds or ages so that free will can be fully healed and all are restored.
### Theological Motives
Origen’s system prioritizes theodicy (God’s justice and goodness), the sovereignty of divine love, the reality of free will, and the pedagogical character of divine action.
Punishment exists to heal and train, not to satisfy vengeance indefinitely.
The ultimate victory of God over evil requires that nothing remain outside restoration.
### Reception and Controversy
These ideas influenced later figures (e.g., Gregory of Nyssa) but provoked strong opposition.
Aspects associated with Origenism — especially universal salvation extending to the devil, the pre-existence of souls, and certain views of the resurrected body — were condemned in the 6th century (Justinian’s anathemas of 543 and related decrees linked to the Second Council of Constantinople in 553).
Modern scholarship continues to debate the precise contours of Origen’s own teaching versus later “Origenist” elaborations, the reliability of Latin translations (especially Rufinus), and whether he held a purely incorporeal final state or retained some form of spiritual body.
In summary, Origen’s eschatology centers on the hopeful, universal *apokatastasis*:
through free will, purifying discipline, and God’s persistent love, all rational creation will ultimately be restored so that God is truly all in all.
Scriptures Supporting
Eventual Salvation of All Mankind
(NKJV)
Lamentations 3:31-32 “For the Lord will not cast off forever. Though He causes grief, yet He will show compassion according to the multitude of His mercies.”
Ezekiel 16:55 “When your sisters, Sodom and her daughters, return to their former state, and Samaria and her daughters return to their former state, then you and your daughters will return to your former state.”
Psalms 22:25-29 “… All the ends of the world shall remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations shall worship before You. For the kingdom is the LORD’s, and He rules over the nations. All the prosperous of the earth shall eat and worship; all those who go down to the dust shall bow before Him, even he who cannot keep himself alive.”
Psalms 65:2-4 “O You who hear prayer, to You all flesh will come. Iniquities prevail against me; as for our transgressions, You will provide atonement for them. Blessed is the man You choose, and cause to approach You, that he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, of Your holy temple.”
Psalms 66:3-4 “Say to God, ‘How awesome are Your works! Through the greatness of Your power Your enemies shall submit themselves to You. All the earth shall worship You and sing praises to You; they shall sing praises to Your name.’ Selah”
Psalms 86:9 “All nations whom You have made shall come and worship before You, O Lord, and shall glorify Your name.”
Psalms 90:3 “You turn man to destruction, and say, ‘Return, O children of men.’”
Psalms 138:4 “All the kings of the earth shall praise You, O LORD, when they hear the words of Your mouth.”
Psalms 145:14 “The LORD upholds all who fall, and raises up all who are bowed down.”
Psalms 145:9-10 “The LORD is good to all, and His tender mercies are over all His works. All Your works shall praise You, O LORD, and Your saints shall bless You.”
Proverbs 16:9 “A man’s heart plans his way, but the LORD directs his steps.”
Proverbs 19:21 “There are many plans in a man’s heart, nevertheless the LORD’s counsel—that will stand.”
Isaiah 2:2 “Now it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the LORD’s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow to it.”
Isaiah 19:14-25 “In that day Israel will be one of three with Egypt and Assyria—a blessing in the midst of the land, whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, ‘Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance.’”
Isaiah 25:6-8 “And in this mountain the LORD of hosts will make for all people a feast of choice pieces, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of well-refined wines on the lees.
And He will destroy on this mountain the surface of the covering cast over all people, and the veil that is spread over all nations.
He will swallow up death forever, and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces; the rebuke of His people He will take away from all the earth; for the LORD has spoken.”
Isaiah 45:23 “I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath.”
John 1:29 “The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, ‘Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!’”
John 1:9 “That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.”
John 3:16-17 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.”
John 3:35 “The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand.”
John 4:42 “Then they said to the woman, ‘Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world.’”
John 6:33 “For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
John 6:37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.”
John 6:39 “This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.”
John 8:12 “Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, ‘I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.’”
John 12:32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”
John 12:47 “And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.”
John 13:3 “Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come from God and was going to God,”
John 17:2 “As You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.”
Luke 2:10 “Then the angel said to them, ‘Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people.’”
Luke 3:6 “And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.”
Acts 2:16-18 “But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, that I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; and they shall prophesy.’”
Acts 3:20-21 “And that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.”
1 John 2:2 “And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.”
1 John 4:14 “And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.”
2 Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”
1 Timothy 2:3-6 “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,”
1 Timothy 4:10 “For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.”
1 Corinthians 3:15 “If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.”
1 Corinthians 4:5 “Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.”
1 Corinthians 12:3 “Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.”
1 Corinthians 15:22 “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.”
1 Corinthians 15:24-28 “Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. For ‘He has put all things under His feet.’ But when He says ‘all things are put under Him,’ it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.”
2 Corinthians 5:15, 19 “And He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. … That is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.”
Colossians 1:16 “For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.”
Colossians 1:20 “And by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.”
Ephesians 1:22-23 “And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.”
Ephesians 1:9-11 “Having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,”
Ephesians 2:4-10 “But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”
Ephesians 4:10 “He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.”
Hebrews 1:1-2 “God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;”
Hebrews 7:25 “Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.”
Hebrews 8:11-12 “None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
Jeremiah 31:31-34 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
James 5:11 “Indeed we count them blessed who endure. You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord—that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful.”
Philippians 2:9-11 “Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
Philippians 3:21 “Who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.”
Titus 2:11 “For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,”
Romans 5:15-21 “But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Romans 8:19-21 “For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.”
Romans 8:38-39 “For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
Romans 11:15, 32, 36 “For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? … For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. … For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.”
Romans 11:26 “And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: ‘The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;’”
Revelation 15:4 “Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, for Your judgments have been manifested.”
Revelation 21:4-5 “And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away. Then He who sat on the throne said, ‘Behold, I make all things new.’ And He said to me, ‘Write, for these words are true and faithful.’”
Based on verses listed in
Tentmaker.org/forum/judgement-and-punishment/universal-restoration-verses/
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**Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 130–202 AD)** is one of the earliest and most important Church Fathers to articulate the doctrine that later came to be called **theosis** (deification or divinization)—the idea that human beings are called to share in the divine life and become “gods” by grace (not by nature).
He does not use the later technical Greek term *theosis*, but the concept is central to his theology in *Against Heresies* (*Adversus Haereses*).
### Key Statements
Irenaeus repeatedly expresses the “exchange” formula that became classic:
> “Our Lord Jesus Christ… became what we are, so that He might bring us to be even what He Himself is.”
> (*Against Heresies* V, Preface)
A closely related formulation:
> “For it was for this end that the Word of God was made man, and He who was the Son of God became the Son of man, that man, having been taken into the Word, and receiving the adoption, might become the son of God.”
> (*Against Heresies* III.19.1 / III.18.1 in some editions)
He also writes in a more direct (and sometimes paraphrased) way:
> “If the Word became a man, it was so men may become gods.”
And, addressing the process of human maturation:
> “How, then, shall he become a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again, can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that thou, at the outset, shouldest hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the glory of God.”
> (*Against Heresies* IV.39.2)
He also cites Psalm 82 (“I have said, Ye are gods”) to support the idea that humans are destined to become “gods” by adoption and participation.
### Core Features of Irenaeus’s Teaching
– **Purpose of creation**: Humanity was never meant to remain static. God created humans immature so they could grow into perfection and share in divine life and immortality. Theosis was the original goal, not merely a remedy for the Fall.
– **Recapitulation (*anakephalaiosis*)**: Christ, as the New Adam, recapitulates (sums up and restores) the entire human story. By becoming human, living obediently, dying, and rising, He heals and elevates human nature.
– **Adoption and participation**: Through union with the incarnate Word and the work of the Spirit, humans receive divine sonship, incorruptibility, and immortality. We become “gods” by grace—sharing in what properly belongs to God—while remaining creatures.
– **Image and likeness**: Humans are made in God’s *image*; the *likeness* is realized progressively through the Spirit and culminates in the vision of God (“the glory of God is a living man, and the life of man is the vision of God” – *AH* IV.20.7).
– **Distinction preserved**: Irenaeus maintains a clear Creator–creature distinction. Humans do not become God by nature or essence; they participate in divine life, attributes (especially immortality and incorruptibility), and glory.
Irenaeus’s vision strongly influenced later Fathers (especially Athanasius, who popularized the shorter form “God became man that man might become God”) and remains foundational for the Eastern Orthodox understanding of theosis.
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Psalm 82:6 (Berean Standard)
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I have said,
‘You are gods;
you are all sons of the Most High.’
theosis
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BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert