Grace:
Josephus was actively involved in shaping the religious history that followed.
History was crafted by those in power.
Steefen:
Those in power: Josephus, King Herod Agrippa II of Galilee.
Jesus the Galilean, I’d say history was crafted by those in power.
Glen:
Josephus used his own autobiography to shape the narrative about being Pro-Roman.
Steefen:
King Agrippa II had to make things right with Vespasian and Titus so he could get permission to live in Rome
because Jesus was from Galilee but was a rebel leader.
Josephus had to make things right with Vespasian and Titus so he could get permission to live in Rome
because Josephus was a rebel leader in Galilee.
Josephus was on the same page as the historical Jesus of Galilee.
Grace:
Josephus was a propagandist, not just a historian.
Steefen:
So the TF was propaganda? Many scholars say Josephus wasn’t a Christian, himself, so the TF must have been propaganda, not true.
Instead of taking the position that Josephus was writing history therefore the TF was an interpolation, one cannot say the TF was an interpolation if Josephus was acting as a propagandist.
Think about that for a moment.
With the Gospel of Mark being a street play in Rome to quell unrest, Josephus would also have to support that, not just support Agrippa II trying to separate himself from Jesus the Galilean, the rebel.
Robert said
Steefen said
You two are breaking the rules.
The discussion includes discussing the finances of Paul and Josephus.Which rules, specifically, are you accusing the two Bruce’s of violating?
Not answering questions. Not participating in discussions.
Same thing with the other member: not discussing the content but just the thumbnail. You can’t judge a book by it’s cover, you have to read the content inside.
I think his name was Stephen. First he makes a comment about how attractive the avatar, Grace, is, then he comments about the depiction of a ghost of a woman. Get inside to the content. The discussion topic was about more important topics: resurrection vs life-after-death. If Christians are celebrating Easter, maybe we should be celebrating Jesus died and went to heaven more than Jesus died and was resurrected.
Josephus had to shape Christianity because any other story, especially one that was historically accurate, would not have been Pro-Roman.
Josephus could not have written a history where the rebels won. He had to write a historical fiction. That historical fiction included Julius Caesar, Augustus Caesar, the Manu royalty of Queen Helena, and Vespasian performing miracles that were later attributed to Jesus, the Galilean.
What the hell is this thread about? Why am I required to watch videos? Just make the argument in writing, and let’s proceed. I can’t believe this thread has gone on for pages and pages.
I plead to any moderator, take the thing off if no fruitful discussion ensues quickly.
Steefen said
Robert said
Steefen said
You two are breaking the rules.
The discussion includes discussing the finances of Paul and Josephus.Which rules, specifically, are you accusing the two Bruce’s of violating?
Not answering questions. Not participating in discussions.
…
You are accusing me of not answering questions because I only answered one of them?
These two characters … whether written by people or generated by prompts fed to an AI model … are, almost certain unintentionally, providing secondary support to the argument of the Marcion scholars that these points from what the animated characters are treating as content from the original autographs of Paul’s letters have even greater plausibility as introduced into at least one but more likely multiple redacted editions of Paul’s letters to, essentially, steal the Marcionite’s thunder by converting the Pauline epistles into opposing key points of the Marcionite position. By the middle of the second century, knitting together the various traditions of Paul used by various faith communities who claimed Paul as a founder required having him go on all of these missionary voyages, when it all could be a much simpler process of Paul setting up shop in a city until the evangelists of the Jerusalem church come in and take over the majority of the faith community and he has to set out further away from their influence and start all over again.
I mean, at least that is more plausible than your story here: going from “when you look at the canonical letters of Paul, there seems to be an implausibly large amount of finance there”, to, “suggesting that those are later embellishments”, rather than “so obviously the Empire is financing Paul’s missionary journeys.”
Comment 101-106
Steefen:
Let me see if Glen agrees with me or has info I originally did not present–or I have info he does not have.
In addition to Glen showing the Josephus and Paul having finances and a financial backing for his lifestyle,
Glen says Paul went to the Dead Sea Scroll community. Did Josephus live among the Essenses in the DSS community?
The answer is yes.
Google AI Overview:
, commonly identified as the Essenes, as he described their beliefs and practices in detail. He was familiar with their lifestyle, as he spent time under an ascetic teacher named Banus as a teenager, and his descriptions closely match the archaeological evidence found at Qumran.
- Detailed Descriptions: In Jewish Wars and Antiquities, Josephus provides the most detailed account of the Essenes, including their communal life, celibacy (for some), ritual purity, and intense study of texts.
- Matches to Qumran: Josephus’s description of their daily ritual baths, communal dining, and communal property strongly aligns with the archaeological findings at Qumran.
- Personal Connection: Josephus claims in his Life (10–12) to have tested all three main Jewish sects—Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes—and lived among them in the desert.
- Scope: While Josephus described the Essenes as living in many cities and towns, scholars believe the community at Qumran was a specific, perhaps extreme, branch of the broader Essene movement that he knew.
see the transcript of
Video: Paul’s Arabian Mystery From Damascus to the Dead Sea Scrolls
Some day we’ll all have AI bodies, a kind of resurrection, not into pneuma but grids of pixels. After the AI Parousia we’ll all have straight white teeth, a perpetual smile, and no need to breathe.
We know Glen has a human form but does Grace even exist in meatspace?
I did watch the videos. But they’re cursory and shallow like most videos, however well intentioned. I’ll wait for the book.
Robert:
If you start a thread, be prepared to engage in dialogue with other members. Threads should be a conversation, not a monologue. Critical reflection upon one’s own ideas should be welcomed.
Steefen:
By the same token, in a conversation, those choosing to discuss the thread also should welcome critical reflection on that person’s own ideas.
Robert:
Is there’s a specific question that you have asked of someone here that has not been answered or addressed? Let us know, maybe it was simply an oversight.
Steefen:
I asked the question. It wasn’t answered. I asked the question a second time. That is why I said they were breaking the rules of discussion. Discussions are not Steefen starts a thread for discussion and that means his discussions are only meant for attacks. Other people have to hold up their side of the discussion also. You see the questions: here they are a third time:
Tell us your objection to the financial wealth of Josephus.
Tell us your objection to the financial wealth of Paul that Glen and Grace posted (video or narration, if you do not want to want to watch the video).
Jarek said
The Letters of Paul in their Roman Literary Context
Reassessing Apostolic Authorship
This year is starting to be a turning point in Pauline Corpus studies. First David Trobisch publicly shared his doubts about the authenticity of Paul’s letters. And now Nina E. Livesey has published a book in CUP that explicitly considers Paul’s letters to be a literary format with a fictional narrative to convey ethical and theological teachings. Although this supports my hypothesis that Josephus was coincidentally the founding father of Christianity, there is something incredibly sad about the sacred being created by the vulgar profane. Business as usual.
I guarantee this year (whatever year this OP was posted) is not going to be the turning point in Pauline studies that you anticipate. Every thesis in the OP is the product of hacks.
The thesis that 1 Corinthians was a “literary format with a fictional narrative to convey ethical and theological teachings” is so bogus it should not even warrant a response–and apart from a popular forum like this, it probably wouldn’t.
What scares me is that people will think the ideas conveyed in this OP are “daring” and “innovative” and “cutting edge”. They are not. They are the work of hacks. And the proof will be in the arguments, which will always come from the lowest of the historian’s canon–the merely possible. That is, Hacks will talk about possibilities (ah, but perhaps there was no Paul) and then, with deceptive smoothness, treat these mere possibilities as if they were plausible (bc it is possible there was no Paul, well then, there was no Paul).
It all constitutes a counterfeit of true historiography so obvious it should make all historians sick that it does in fact convince some people.
Regarding the OP, whatever one thinks of stylometrics for the synoptic problem, surely under this hypothesis, stylometric analysis of the letters of Paul regarding passages attested to be in Marcion’s NT and passaged attested to be absent from Marcion’s NT is relevant.
Under the hypothesis of a 2nd century autograph, there shouldn’t be substantial stylometric differences of a select subset of that text other than differences created by the criteria for being selected for that subset.
And yet there appear to be.
Under the alternate hypothesis of some of the scholars of Marcion’s work as attested in the Church Fathers, that the canonical Pauline epistles were elaborations, expansions, and in three cases news compositions of the ten epistles contained in Marcion’s NT, with the majority of the word count of the redacted versions consisting of the elaborations and expansions, one would anticipate that the redactions would reflect 2nd century rhetoric.
So, while I cannot afford a hundred bucks for the book, finding evidence that “the epistles of Paul” represents a 2nd century CE rhetorical composition would not contradict the alternative hypothesis noted above, unless the same rhetorical analysis was performed on the fragmentary attested passages of Marcion’s Apostolikon, with the same findings indicating 2nd century authorship.
Stephen said
Ok I’ll confess. I did it. I wrote Paul’s letters. Whew, it’s such a relief to get it off my chest after all this time.
Did you do the Greek composition by hand, or did you write it in a different language and get AI support for the translation?
Also, and for no reason, if the second, what prompt is needed to make sure the AI removes stylistic traces of the original language?
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