godspell said
You seem to have problems understanding other people, so maybe not the best translator out there?Can I inquire–what are your credentials with regard to these various languages?
Do you speak Hebrew? Or Aramaic?
Can you tell me your level of understanding about Hebrew or Arabic?
Clearly if you do not see the word “Muslim” in Isaiah 42:19 you have problem with the most commonly used Hebrew word “Shalom”.
If you just understand how the Hebrew word “Shalom” is link with “Muslim” and “Islam” you will see the pattern.
You are trying to say that ‘meshugganah’ is a Biblical Hebrew word. Do I have a problem misunderstanding you about it?
What I am saying is written in plain English in ** you do not have permission to see this link **.
If you do not have good knowledge of Hebrew you can read ** you do not have permission to see this link **
i can only admire anyone who tries to learn a new language–I’m terrible at it. I once knew a man who had more languages than he had fingers and toes. It’s a gift some people have, though it requires work even then.
I can’t quibble over your attempts to find unity here–nor do I really have a problem with it, since I certainly do believe there are great commonalities between the three Abrahaminic religions. But precisely because I don’t know the languages involved, I have to be careful about just buying into what anybody says on a message forum that is not carefully vetted by professional scholars.
The most important thing we all need to know in this world is what we don’t know.
All very good points.
Shalom said
How is Jesus (PBUH) not “Muslim” in post 622 sense?
1) If Jesus (PBUH) followed Old Testament he said G-d is “One”. (Sahada in Hebrew and Arabic)
2) Jesus (PBUH) Prayed to G-d (Saleat in Hebrew and Arabic)
3) Jesus (PBUH) went to JeruSalem for Hajj (Hajj in Arabic and Hebrew.).
4) Jesus (PBUH) fast. (Sawm in Hebrew and Arabic)
5)Jesus (PBUH) ask people to give Charity (Zakat in Hebrew and Arabic)
All of the 5 pillar of Islam are Hebrew/Arabic words and ar in the Bible.
Could we not then say that a practicing Buddhist or Hindu, one in particular who believes all gods are manifestations of Atman, are also Muslims (except for going to Jerusalem for Hajj)? Does one have to go to Hajj in Jerusalem to be a Muslim? Surely not all the poor can afford it, and some may pass away before their plans to go to Jerusalem are completed.
Certainly these 5 tenets would make Jesus a Muslim in theory. But what about the everyday practices of Islam? I do not know much about Islam, but isn’t there a prohibition about wine? And yet Jesus turns water into wine.
Hebrew 7:28
כי התורה העמידה לכהנים גדולים בני אדם חלשים אבל דבר השבועה הבאה אחרי התורה העמיד את הבן המשלם לעולם׃
Hebrew 7:28 Jesus (PBUH) says Jesus (PBUH) is “Muslim”. המשלם (HaMuslim) is Muslim.
For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect (Muslim) forever.
Hebrew 5:8-9
Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from what He suffered. ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Hebrew 5:9
ואחרי אשר השלם היה ממציא תשועת עולמים לכל שמעיו . (The Salem) השלם (HaSalem) is similar to Muslim’ (HaSalem)
Ha in Hebrew is definite article (The)
FocusMyView said
All very good points.Could we not then say that a practicing Buddhist or Hindu, one in particular who believes all gods are manifestations of Atman, are also Muslims (except for going to Jerusalem for Hajj)? Does one have to go to Hajj in Jerusalem to be a Muslim? Surely not all the poor can afford it, and some may pass away before their plans to go to Jerusalem are completed.
Certainly these 5 tenets would make Jesus a Muslim in theory. But what about the everyday practices of Islam? I do not know much about Islam, but isn’t there a prohibition about wine? And yet Jesus turns water into wine.
Bible says Jesus (PBUH) is “Muslim” Hebrew 7:28, and Hebrew 7:9.
Bible does not say Buddhist or Hindu are “Muslims”
The word “Hindu” is not used in any of their religious text.
** you do not have permission to see this link **
From ** you do not have permission to see this link ** (“river”).
The definition of “Hindu” is “a person who lives across Indus river” the word “Hindu” is Persian or Arabic.
Hebrew 7:28
כי התורה העמידה לכהנים גדולים בני אדם חלשים אבל דבר השבועה הבאה אחרי התורה העמיד את הבן המשלם לעולם׃
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Hebrew 5:9
ואחרי אשר השלם היה ממציא תשועת עולמים לכל שמעיו׃
** you do not have permission to see this link **
And yet Jesus and Mohamed had very different behaviors. Jesus, in his frustration, uses a whip to clear out the money changers at the temple. That is the height of violence for him.
Why does Jesus not defend the faith and the faithful as Mohamed and his successors did? The early leaders of Islam defended the faith in a very wide area, extending from Spain all the way to Mongolia. The Jews could only defend the faith in a very small area.
Getting back to my joking reference to a Yiddish epithet–as I thought, the origin of that word is Hebrew–
** you do not have permission to see this link **
And there can be little doubt it was many times applied to Jesus himself.
Perhaps justifiably, but I think some people need to be a bit more careful about what gospels they believe. The whip of cords is only in John’s gospel, which almost certainly means it’s John’s invention (since he would have wanted a more aggressive approach). Though I have no doubt it was in The Passion of the Christ–let me check–apparently not! I guess Gibson is more into the masochist part of sado-masochism?
Let me tell you a nice Joke from the Bible:
Nehemiah 12:21
of Hilkiah’s, Hashabiah; of Jedaiah’s, Nethanel.
These are names of the People who were friends more then 2000 years ago. Hashabiah – Hizbullah, Nethanel – Netanyahu.
There are slightly different though. If you switch the last part of each names “EL” to “AH” then they will correct.
I feel though, that there is a trap of blasphemy being laid. If anyone who serves God is a Muslim, then anyone who accepts the term Muslim and says anything unacceptable about the Prophet or God is then considered committing blasphemy. So I suppose it would be safer (in this earthly existence) to simply accept oneself as a Jew or a Christian and fall under the protection of “People of the Book”. OF course, the millions of Jews and Christians living in predominantly Muslim lands probably have better reasons to stick to their Jewish or Christian beliefs (they believe them to be true), but I wonder if such a person calling themselves a Muslim would put them in danger of being offensive to the majority population.
People need to accept there will never be a universal belief system. Religious or secular. Never. And to wish for it is to wish evil upon one’s neighbors.
Jew. Christian. Muslim. Hindu. Buddhist. Taoist. Shintoist. Jain. Zoroastrian. Sikh. Bahai. And all the other beliefs, so long as they are from the heart, and respect freedom of conscience. They should all be sacred to us. As should the right to believe none of them.
The goal is not assimilation. The goal is not uniformity. The goal is self-understanding. For me to be me, and you to be you. And to learn from each other. Or we deserve nothing but destruction. This I believe. And this I would die for. Though I would rather live.
Shalom
How is Jesus (PBUH) not “Muslim” in post 622 sense?
1) If Jesus (PBUH) followed Old Testament he said G-d is “One”. (Sahada in Hebrew and Arabic)
2) Jesus (PBUH) Prayed to G-d (Saleat in Hebrew and Arabic)
3) Jesus (PBUH) went to JeruSalem for Hajj (Hajj in Arabic and Hebrew.).
4) Jesus (PBUH) fast. (Sawm in Hebrew and Arabic)
5)Jesus (PBUH) ask people to give Charity (Zakat in Hebrew and Arabic)
All of the 5 pillar of Islam are Hebrew/Arabic words and are in the Bible.
Steefen
Asking and insisting to be remembered along side the Jewish Revolt’s Cannibal Mary who ate half of her son and gave her son (the other half) is NOT Islamic, Shalom. It is not Islamic, Shalom.
The real Matthews, Marks, Lukes, Johns, and Paul/s lived after the Jewish Revolt. Jewish Wars by Josephus, Book 6 (quoted in the upcoming second edition of my book, The Greatest Bible Study in Historical Accuracy–the following is in draft form):
201. There was a certain woman that dwelt beyond Jordan, her name was Mary…
- Come on, enough sucking my breast; be my food, and you be to these seditious, unprincipled and dishonest men a fury, a spirit of punishment, torture with stings of conscience, THE GUILTY who put us in this Great Tribulation. Son of Mary [biblical Jesus/New Testament Jesus], my son, be a byword: a person, a thing, cited to the world as a notorious example of our destruction.
Complete these calamities of us Jews. [Yes, the Testimonium Flavianum’s very next line is that the TF is a calamity followed by another calamity.]
208. As soon as she had said this, she cut her son. He died. She put him on a fire not in a makeshift cremation but she roasted him. She ate half of him. She kept the other half concealed.
- Those of the sedition came. They threatened her that her throat would be cut if she did not show them what food she had gotten ready.
She replied that she had saved a very fine portion of it for them and uncovered what was left of her son [Jesus of Paul, Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John].
This WAS the body and blood of Jesus, not a metaphor, not transubstantiation.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
1 Guest(s)