Stephen said
My abject apologies. Sometimes I forget how intimidating my posts can be to the vulnerable among us. I should have known that Steefen’s preferred method of discourse is the extended monolog.
My biggest problem with this whole “project,” a term which I think gives it too much credit, is that Steefen is using the blog essentially as note-taking in putting together his arguments, again a term that gives it too much credit. This is not the place for this. Steefen is not the owner of the blog, and it is not here to serve him. It is not a publishing platform (unless Dr. E decided to use it as such).
Steefen, buy some note cards and paper. Do your research, take your notes and put together a proposition. If you finish up a theory, post it then. The blog should not be the place for a monologue. I promised that I don’t care what your thought process is, and I doubt anyone else does either. I’m beginning to think I should have supported Judith’s censorship effort.
6 Theme: Marriage
Cicero Reference: De finibus bonorum et malorum (“On the ends of good and evil) Book 4.17
Gospel Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero
( I went to the library and obtained: Loeb Classical Library, Cicero, Volume XVII, On Ends [Di Finibus Bonorum et Malorum].)
Book 4.17, pages 319-320
and they were the first of any philosophers to teach that the love of parents for their offspring is a provision of nature; and that nature, so they pointed out, has ordained the union of men and women in marriage, which is prior in order of time, and is the root of all the family affections.
Starting from these first principles, they traced out the origin and growth of all the virtues.
Jesus
Matthew Chapter 19
6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”
7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses order a man to give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”
8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because of your hardness of heart; but it was not this way from the beginning.
9 Now I tell you that whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman, commits adultery.”
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
I do not see these as common ideas on theme.
Anyone else,
Care to comment in an edifying way on whether or not this Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme?
Any comment in an edifying way on the others mentioned earlier in the thread?
= = =
1 Maybe
2 Yes (and my addition)
3 Maybe
4 Maybe
5 Yes
6 No
7 No
8 No
9 Yes
10 TBD
11 No
12-24 TBD
Big Picture
The critical scholars have taken away from the biblical Jesus
(1) The Woman Caught in Adultery
(2) Jesus making a prophecy about the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem surrounded by armies (the gospels were written after AD 70, Jesus did not say that back in 29 or 30 CE)
(3) The supernatural events
So, Jesus lose followers because he had no supernatural episodes.
Without Jesus speaking about the Tribulation of Temple Destruction, how can his accusers say at Mark 14: 58
We heard Him say, ‘I will destroy this man-made temple, and in three days I will build another that is made without hands.’ ”
(4) Bart recently wrote:
Most historical scholars do not think that there really was a mission of the 70/72; for my part, I don’t think Jesus *had* that many followers in rural Galilee (who abandoned their jobs and families to preach).
= = =
Jesus speaks like a businessman of his day on putting money to work, get a return for talents, get interest on talents?
The Parable of the Talents of Jesus written down > as if Cicero and Xenophon did not write down this advice before the Greco-Roman gospel authors attributed The Parable of the Talents to Jesus.
The Greco-Roman authors would know business, Cicero on Investing, Xenophon on Oeconmicus / Home Economics.
The Oeconomicus (Greek: Οἰκονομικός) by Xenophon is a Socratic dialogue principally about household management and agriculture.
The advice was not unique to Jesus. Can we take this away from the Biblical Jesus, also?
(5) The historical Jesus does not get credit for The Parable of the Talents?
Robert
….Once one removes the idea of independent attestation, ie, the gospel of John was not independent of the the post synoptic tradition, this is the best indication that Jesus taught something about a new, eternal temple, beyond simply predicting ex eventu the destruction of the existing temple as would happen in 70 CE. In other words, there was something there that can fit into contemporary apocalyptic thought at the time of Jesus.
Ex eventu? What the hay?
No one here speaks Rusky, comrade.
I got my eye on you, Robertski.
Don’t think I don’t.
Reply
Jesus’ parable of the talents is not about giving investment. … Don’t hide your light under a bushel. Take your gifts and use them for good, and be extravagant with your efforts.
Response
25: 27 you should have deposited my money with the bankers, and on my return I would have received it back with interest.
28 Therefore take the talent from him and give it to the one who has ten talents.
29 For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. But the one who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.
30 And throw that worthless servant into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne.
Steefen
Elsewhere in the gospels Jesus does speak of not hiding one’s light.
Reply
Jesus taught something about a new, eternal temple, beyond simply predicting ex eventu the destruction of the existing temple as would happen in 70 CE.
Response
Please provide a citation so we can see those verses.
I am finding Hebrew Bible verses for everlasting kingdom (not eternal Temple):
Daniel 2:44 the God of heaven shall set up a kingdom that will consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Daniel 7:14
Wait, there is Luke 1:33
32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David,
33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. His kingdom will never end!”
34 How can this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”
What? Every kingdom has a temple? By implication?
No one here speaks Rusky, comrade.
Я говорю на русском. Но я шпионю для китайцев. Они платят мне продовольственными талонами. While the last sentence is grammatically correct I'm not sure the expression продовольственными талонами is colloquially correct. When in doubt 'take a literal interpretation is what I say. боже мой!
Stephen said
No one here speaks Rusky, comrade.Я говорю на русском. Но я шпионю для китайцев. Они платят мне продовольственными талонами. While the last sentence is grammatically correct I'm not sure the expression продовольственными талонами is colloquially correct. When in doubt 'take a literal interpretation is what I say. боже мой!
Dang. It’s a conspiracy.
Robert said
Steefen said
Reply
Jesus’ parable of the talents is not about giving investment. … Don’t hide your light under a bushel. Take your gifts and use them for good, and be extravagant with your efforts.
Response
25: 27 you should have deposited my money with the bankers, and on my return I would have received it back with interest.
Of course it mentions this, but the point of the parable is not merely to give financial advice. You see that, right?
Of course, I see what you have written. I am not persuaded to ignore the specifics of the face value of the parable: Go to the bank with my talent and let it earn interest so you can return the talent to me and interest–like a bond.
Dang. It’s a conspiracy.
Looking back on what I wrote I hope our domestic intelligence agencies don’t invite me in for an interview. Just kidding about working for the Chinese! ‘Food Stamps’ was not a code!
I am not persuaded to ignore the specifics of the face value of the parable: Go to the bank with my talent and let it earn interest so you can return the talent to me and interest–like a bond.
Maybe Steefen and Jarek are the same person.
Stephen said
Dang. It’s a conspiracy.Looking back on what I wrote I hope our domestic intelligence agencies don’t invite me in for an interview. Just kidding about working for the Chinese! ‘Food Stamps’ was not a code!
I am not persuaded to ignore the specifics of the face value of the parable: Go to the bank with my talent and let it earn interest so you can return the talent to me and interest–like a bond.
Maybe Steefen and Jarek are the same person.
Naw. They’re not the same person.
Oh. And food stamps are no longer a thing.
They use a debit (EBT) card now.
Robert said
Steefen said
Robert said
Steefen said
Reply
Jesus’ parable of the talents is not about giving investment. … Don’t hide your light under a bushel. Take your gifts and use them for good, and be extravagant with your efforts.
Response
25: 27 you should have deposited my money with the bankers, and on my return I would have received it back with interest.
Of course it mentions this, but the point of the parable is not merely to give financial advice. You see that, right?
Of course, I see what you have written. I am not persuaded to ignore the specifics of the face value of the parable: Go to the bank with my talent and let it earn interest so you can return the talent to me and interest–like a bond.
So are you saying that the person who created this parable had the sole objective of giving financial advice?
I have a book on one of my library shelves titled, The Wisdom of the Parables.
I will look at it and see what it says.
BibleRef.com interprets the parable as being about the second coming of Christ. I came and gave you something. When I return, I want to see what you did with what I gave you. If I am going to come back with my kingdom, you can enter in that kingdom if you did something with what I gave you.
So, I want to see if my Parable Wisdom book categorizes the Talents Parable with the Keep Oil in Your Lamps Parable thereby agreeing with BibleRef.com.
I can also see what my Catholic Study Bible puts as a header for the Talents Parable–if it also sees it as a character test for the kingdom of the Son of Man.
The Catholic Study Bible
Matthew / Chapter 25
1 Then the kingdom of heaven will be like …
14 The Parable of the Talents / It will be as when a man who was going on a journey
The Parables of Jesus, Red Letter Edition, The Jesus Seminar
The Parable of Entrusted Money, pages 54-55
The Wisdom of the Parables categorizes The Parable of the Talents under “Vocation”. The Vocation List:
Wheat and Tares
Workers in the Vineyard
The Talents
The Unjust Steward
The Lighted Candle
The Body’s Lamp
The Rich Fool
The Tower Builder and the Warrior King
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
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