Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: TBD
18 Theme: God is love
Cicero Reference: De natura deorum (On the nature of the gods), Book 1.44
New Testament Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero: “God is love.”
** you do not have permission to see this link **
How much more truth there is in the Stoics, whom you censure! They hold that all wise men are friends, even when strangers to each other, since nothing is more lovable than virtue, and he that attains to it will have our esteem in whatever country he dwells. 122 But as for you, what mischief you cause when you reckon kindness and benevolence as weaknesses! Apart altogether from the nature and attributes of deity, do you think that even human beneficence and benignity are solely due to human infirmity? Is there no natural affection between the good?
There is something attractive in the very sound of the word ‘love,’ from which the Latin term for friendship is derived. If we base our friendship on its profit to ourselves, and not on its advantage to those whom we love, it will not be friendship at all, but a mere bartering of selfish interests. That is our standard of value for meadows and fields and herds of cattle: we esteem them for the profits that we derive from them; but affection and friendship between men is disinterested; how much more so therefore is that of the gods, who, although in need of nothing, yet both love each other and care for the interests of men.
If this be not so, why do we worship and pray to them? why have pontiffs and augurs to preside over our sacrifices and auspices? why make petitions and vow offerings to heaven? … For how can holiness exist if the gods pay no heed to man’s affairs? Yet what is the meaning of an animate being that pays no heed to anything?
“It is doubtless therefore truer to say, as the good friend of us all, Posidonius, argued in the fifth book of his On the Nature of the Gods, that Epicurus does not really believe in the gods at all… Indeed he could not have been so senseless as really to imagine god to be like a feeble human being, but resembling him only in outline and surface, not in solid substance … but entirely incapable of using them, an emaciated and transparent being, showing no kindness or beneficence to anybody, caring for nothing and doing nothing at all.
In the first place, a being of this nature is an absolute impossibility, and Epicurus was aware of this, and so actually abolishes the gods, although professedly retaining them.
124 Secondly, even if god exists, yet is of such a nature that he feels no benevolence or affection towards men, good‑bye to him, say I — not ‘God be gracious to me,’ 49 why should I say that? for he cannot be gracious to anybody, since, as you tell us, all benevolence and affection is a mark of weakness.”
New Testament Reference: John 3: 16
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
I would like to use different references with the thoughts of Cicero. (Abraham was kept from sacrificing Isaac, so God sacrificing Jesus is out of character for a loving God.)
Matthew 6: 25-34 (yes, but not quite)
Selected Bible Verses about God’s Love from Christianity.com
The Bible: “God is love.”
Deuteronomy 7: 9
Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments.
Psalm 86: 15
But you, Lord, are a compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness.
Psalm 136: 26
Give thanks to the God of heaven. His love endures forever.
1 John 3: 1
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him.
1 John 4: 16
And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
Question submitted to Bart D.E.
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Even if god exists, yet is of such a nature that he feels no benevolence or affection towards men [and their sufferings], good‑bye to him.
I do not say ‘God be gracious to me.’ Why should I say?
– Cicero
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! … The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. … And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love.
1 John 3: 1, 4: 16
Reference: Wikipedia entry for 1 John
Today, following the work of J. Louis Martyn and Raymond Brown, scholars believe that 1 John was written by a member of the Johannine Community, not by John the Apostle.
Dr. Ehrman
I do not want to tie God’s love to a sacrifice of a son.
QUESTION: I just searched your posts and did not see a post with 1 John in the title. In what book/s of yours do you give the most information about the Johannine Community and the authorship and composition of 1 John?
Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy
As an editor, if the section of your book–whether 2nd Edition or Historical Accuracy Part II–is “Common Concerns of Cicero and Jesus” you are going to have to go with Matthew 6: 25-34.
God’s eye is on the sparrow, God’s eye is on humankind. God loves. Don’t worry.
Next editorial meeting, offline: Are you going with “God is love” or “God loves?”
Come on, the gospels do not speak of God’s love (other than sacrifice of son)?
God needs to sacrifice himself, not a third person, if God wants to show love via sacrifice.
Steefen said
Question submitted to Bart D.E.** you do not have permission to see this link **
Even if god exists, yet is of such a nature that he feels no benevolence or affection towards men [and their sufferings], good‑bye to him.
I do not say ‘God be gracious to me.’ Why should I say?
– Cicero
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! … The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. … And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love.
1 John 3: 1, 4: 16
Reference: Wikipedia entry for 1 John
Today, following the work of J. Louis Martyn and Raymond Brown, scholars believe that 1 John was written by a member of the Johannine Community, not by John the Apostle.
Dr. Ehrman
I do not want to tie God’s love to a sacrifice of a son.
QUESTION: I just searched your posts and did not see a post with 1 John in the title. In what book/s of yours do you give the most information about the Johannine Community and the authorship and composition of 1 John?
Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy
Bart D.E.
My textbook: The NT: A Historical and Literary Introduction; and
my lengthy discussion of 1 John 4:3 in The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: TBD
16 Wisdom in the Perfect Man
Cicero Reference: Tusculan Disputations, Book 2: On bearing pain, 22
New Testament Reference: Matthew 13: 54
Cicero
** you do not have permission to see this link **
XXII. The man, then, in whom absolute wisdom exists (such a man, indeed, we have never as yet seen, but the philosophers have described in their writings what sort of man he will be, if he should exist); such a man, or at least that perfect and absolute reason which exists in him, will have the same authority over the inferior part as a good parent has over his dutiful children: he will bring it to obey his nod without any trouble or difficulty. He will rouse himself, prepare and arm himself, to oppose pain as he would an enemy. If you inquire what arms he will provide himself with, they will be contention, encouragement, discourse with himself. He will say thus to himself: Take care that you are guilty of nothing base, languid, or unmanly. He will turn over in his mind all the different kinds of honor.
Matthew 13: 54
Coming to His hometown, He taught the people in their synagogue, and they were astonished. “Where did this man get such wisdom and miraculous powers?” they asked.
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
I think the gospels present Jesus as a Stoic Sage: the man philosophers have described but question the existence of such a man.
As an editor, I ask, how do we get a Cicero-Jesus common ideas on theme? It surely would be with more than this one verse.
1. The wise man will have the same authority over the inferior part as a good parent has over his dutiful children: he will bring it to obey his nod without any trouble or difficulty.
2. He will rouse himself, prepare and arm himself, to oppose pain as he would an enemy.
3. If you inquire what arms he will provide himself with, they will be
- contention
- encouragement and
- discourse with himself.
4. He will say thus to himself: Take care that you are guilty of nothing base, languid, or unmanly.
5. He will turn over in his mind all the different kinds of honor.
Jesus fits that bill, one through five; for example, #2, Jesus opposed the pain of being whipped. Jesus endured the pain of crucifixion.
Do you agree?
Cicero
You see, then, that pain exists more in opinion than in nature; and yet the same Marius gave a proof that there is something very sharp in pain for he would not submit to have the other thigh cut. So that he bore his pain with resolution as a man; but, 86like a reasonable person, he was not willing to undergo any greater pain without some necessary reason.
Steefen
Jesus used prayer to agonize over what was coming to him. That is how he prepared himself to undergo great pain.
Cicero
The whole, then, consists in this—that you should have command over yourself. I have already told you what kind of command this is; and by considering what is most consistent with patience, fortitude, and greatness of soul, a man not only restrains himself, but, somehow or other, mitigates even pain itself.
Jesus: You’re going to whip me AND crucify me? Don’t you think that’s a bit excessive? The Samaritan Redeemer didn’t get the same and Pilate did find fault in him. Look at Barabbas. I pay my taxes…
(I’m going to play my Pilate did not find fault in me card.) C’mon Pontius, you just said you found no fault in me and you’re gonna do my like this? (I want to register this for posterity.)
– Contention from Jesus
Back to comparing the Samaritan Restorer/Redeemer and Jesus…
So they arrived armed and thought the discourse of the man probable. As they abode at a certain village called Tirathaba, they got the rest together to them and desired to go up the mountain in a great multitude together. But Pilate prevented their going up by seizing upon the roads with a great band of horsemen and footmen who fell upon those that were gotten together in the village. When they came to an action, some of them they slew, others they put to flight, and took a great many alive, the principal of whom and also the most potent of those that fled away, Pilate ordered to be slain.
– from Historical Accuracy quoting Antiquities
Pilate got some of the followers of the Samaritan Restorer/Redeemer but was not so cruel to get some of the followers of Jesus.
Steefen said
Steefen said
Question submitted to Bart D.E.
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Even if god exists, yet is of such a nature that he feels no benevolence or affection towards men [and their sufferings], good‑bye to him.
I do not say ‘God be gracious to me.’ Why should I say?
– Cicero
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! … The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. … And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love.
1 John 3: 1, 4: 16
Reference: Wikipedia entry for 1 John
Today, following the work of J. Louis Martyn and Raymond Brown, scholars believe that 1 John was written by a member of the Johannine Community, not by John the Apostle.
Dr. Ehrman
I do not want to tie God’s love to a sacrifice of a son.
QUESTION: I just searched your posts and did not see a post with 1 John in the title. In what book/s of yours do you give the most information about the Johannine Community and the authorship and composition of 1 John?
Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy
Bart D.E.
My textbook: The NT: A Historical and Literary Introduction; and
my lengthy discussion of 1 John 4:3 in The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture
1 John 4: 2-3
By this you will know the Spirit of God:
Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh
is from God
and every spirit that does not confess Jesus
is not from God.
This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming
and which is already in the world at this time.
Steefen
QUESTION #1:
Is it wrong that “Messiah” and “Son of Man” is Jewish Apocalypticism
but “Christ” is Hellenistic Pauline Christianity and Christian Apocalypticism?
As a follower of Jesus, I am only going with one prophecy of Apocalypticsm, Jesus’s prophecy of Apocalypticsm. Of course, that failed because God let the wicked tenants kill the Jesus, first-person Son of Man and gave the Promise Land to the Romans; therefore, Matthew 16: 27 did not happen.
(If you want to surprise me and say it did, let us know.)
QUESTION #2:
Suffering is part of your case for atheism.
Was there anything in Christopher Hitchens’ God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
(6,030 ratings averaging 4.5 stars on amazon) that contributed to your case for atheism?
Is there a better book for atheism?
Your book God’s Problem has your full case for atheism?
As a follower of Jesus, I am only going with one prophecy of Apocalypticsm, Jesus’s prophecy of Apocalypticsm. Of course, that failed because God let the wicked tenants kill the Jesus, first-person Son of Man and gave the Promise Land to the Romans; therefore, ** you do not have permission to see this link ** did not happen.
(If you want to surprise me and say it did, let us know.)
Correction: Matt 16: 27 should be Matthew 16: 28
Steefen
Is it wrong that “Messiah” and “Son of Man” is Jewish Apocalypticism
but “Christ” is Hellenistic Pauline Christianity and Christian Apocalypticism?
As a follower of Jesus, I am only going with one prophecy of Apocalypticsm, Jesus’s prophecy of Apocalypticsm. Of course, that failed because God let the wicked tenants kill the Jesus, first-person Son of Man and gave the Promise Land to the Romans; therefore, ** you do not have permission to see this link ** did not happen.
(If you want to surprise me and say it did, let us know.)
Bart D.E.
Those terms were used in a wide range of contexts: what they meant would be context-specific.
Steefen
Suffering is part of your case for atheism.
Was there anything in Christopher Hitchens’ God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
(6,030 ratings averaging 4.5 stars on amazon) that contributed to your case for atheism?
Bart D.E.
Nope. I was an atheist before his book came out.
Steefen
Is there a better book for atheism?
Bart D.E.
There are, as you know, many many books that advocate atheism. You might start with a classic, Bertrand Russell’s [Why I Am Not A Christian].
Steefen
Your book God’s Problem has your full case for atheism?
Bart D.E.
My book explains why I myself left the faith, but I’m not trying to compel anyone to follow suit.
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: TBD
22 Theme: God punishes wrongdoers
Cicero Reference: De legibus (on Laws), Book 2
New Testament Reference: Matthew 25: 46
Cicero
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Marcus Tullius Cicero (discussing Laws with his brother Quintus)
8.
… law was not thought out by natural human abilities; it is not some resolution of peoples, but something eternal that rules the whole universe through the wisdom of commanding and prohibiting. So, they said, the first and the last law is the mind of the god compelling or forbidding all things by reason. As a result of that, the law that the gods gave to the human race has been rightly praised: for it is the reason and mind of a wise being, suitable for ordering and deterring.
9.
it is truly proper for it to be understood that this and other orders and prohibitions of peoples have the force of calling them to deeds rightly done and calling them away from faults, a force that is not just older than the age of peoples and states, but also equal to that of the god protecting and ruling heaven and earth.
10.
For reason existed, having originated from the nature of things, both impelling toward doing rightly and calling away from transgression. Reason did not begin to be a law precisely when it was written, but when it arose. But it arose together with the divine mind. On account of this, the true and chief law, suitable for ordering and forbidding, is the right reason of Jupiter the Highest.
11.
As that divine mind is the highest law, so too when it is in man, it has been perfected in the mind of the wise man. … It is surely settled that laws have been invented for the health of citizens, the safety of states, and the quiet and blessed life of men, and that those who first sanctioned resolutions of this sort showed to their peoples that they would write and provide those things by which, once they have been received and adopted, they would live honorably and blessedly…
13.
law is a distinction between just and unjust things, modeled on nature, that most ancient and chief of all things, to which human laws are directed that visit the wicked with punishment and defend and protect the good.
Jesus
Matthew Chapter 25 / The Sheep and the Goats
31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne.
45 Then the King will answer, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.’
46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
I say the New Testament Reference here is off. Cicero is not talking about eternal reward and eternal punishment or post-death reward and punishment.
= = =
Paull / Galations 3: 10 Those who rely on works of the law are under a curse: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”
Maybe Paul does not appreciate the primacy and necessity of law.
= = =
Anyway, can I edit the references on this theme to make it exemplary of the New Testament or specifically gospel-authors following themes of Cicero?
God of the Hebrew Bible is not a good example of only punishing the wicked. Jewish Apocalypticism is a result of the perceived failure of how just God is. Sacrificing his Son is also not a good example of how just God is.
Does Jesus and the God of the Hebrew Bible appreciate the primacy and necessity of law? Answer: Yes.
I cannot recall at the moment the term Christopher Hitchens used but it went something like this: you have to take responsibility for your own actions, Jesus cannot take the punishment for your crimes. Jesus as a sacrifice cannot compensate God for your crimes.
four different types of justice:
- distributive (determining who gets what),
- procedural (determining how fairly people are treated),
- retributive (based on punishment for wrong-doing) and
- restorative (which tries to restore relationships to “rightness.”)
Anyway, I can simply make the common idea work by changing the New Testament reference to The Parable of the Weeds beginning at Matthew 13: 24.
So, there but Cicero and Jesus admit that God punishes wrongdoers.
Any constructive comments?
four different types of justice:
- distributive (determining who gets what),
- procedural (determining how fairly people are treated),
- retributive (based on punishment for wrong-doing) and
- restorative (which tries to restore relationships to “rightness.”)
Vicarious Redemption could be distributive justice or restorative justice?
distributive justice
** you do not have permission to see this link **
equal work means equal outcome
equal sin means equal punishment
That is not the case with one of Jesus’ parables and it certainly is not the case with crucifixion as a sacrifice for the sins of the world or a finite crucifixion for what might as well be infinite sins from then till now and still growing in number.
The video says distributive justice is absent when equal work does not produce equal outcome.
And we would also say distributive justice is absent when equal sin does not produce equal punishment
Jesus acquired a disproportionate amount of the punishment.
Restorative justice address the harm caused by crime/sin.
God: I am less harmed by sins against God if I can get a sacrifice. I am restored somewhat by crimes against Me if i can get a death penalty to animals or my Son, if bad things happen to good people, if the innocent are harmed.
Jesus: these people cannot afford the punishment they deserve, let me pay the price.
And this is precisely what Christopher Hitchens argued against: not taking personal responsibility.
A person is not saved because Jesus overpaid or underpaid the price sin for hundreds of, if not more, generations.
Maybe the term is something like “transferred justice.”
13 Theme Universal Love
14 Truth
15 Secret Piety
19 There is one god
20 In the beginning was the Word
21 God is the judge
23 God sees all
24 Souls are immortal
= = =
Eight left to explore. I am thinking #15 might relate to pray with the door closed as opposed to pharisees praying in public for show. #20 might apply only to the gospel of John.
I want to pick up with #21 since there is an account of judgement being delegated to Enoch and there is an account of judgement being delegated to Jesus Christ.
= = =
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: TBD
21 Theme: God is the judge
Cicero Reference: De legibus (on Laws), Book 2
New Testament Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Steefen
This is too similar to 22 Theme: God punishes wrongdoers.
However, Paul George switches from Matthew 25:46 to Matthew 7: 1-2.
21 Theme: God is the judge presented by the gospel of Matthew, chapter 7.
Here is Matthew chapter 7, verses 1 and 2.
“Do not judge, or you will be judged.
For with the same judgment you pronounce, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3 Why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but fail to notice the beam in your own eye?
4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ while there is still a beam in your own eye?
5 You hypocrite! First take the beam out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
= = =
Paul George’s count needs to be reduced. Not only is his numbering of #21 and #22 unnecessary, Matthew 7:1-2 does not best support the title, “God is the judge.”
Remember, in two instances judgement has been delegated by God to a Son of Man (Enoch in one account, Jesus in the New Testament).
Let’s try 15 to make this session meaty since other obligations have me visiting the forums less often.
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: TBD
15 Theme: Secret Piety
Cicero Reference: Tusculan Disputations, Book 2, on bearing pain, 26 [The power of the sentiment of honor]
New Testament Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Do we not see among the men who hold in great honor the games called “gymnastic” that no pain is shunned by those who strive for the mastery? Among the men with whom hunting and horsemanship are held in the highest esteem, those who are versed in these arts avoid no pain.
What shall we say of our own ambitions? What of our desire for places of honor? What flame is so hot, that candidates for office were not formerly ready to run through it to collect single votes?
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
LOL.
Cicero
Thus Africanus always had in his hands Xenophon, the disciple of Socrates, in whom he was especially delighted with the saying that the same labors are not equally burdensome to the commander and the soldier, because the very honor makes the commander’s labor lighter. But yet it is a fact that the sentiment of honor has great power with the uncultivated common people, even when they do not clearly see what it implies. They are still moved by fame and by the opinion of the multitude, regarding that as honorable which has the applause of the greatest number.
I would not indeed have you, if you are before the eyes of the multitude, stand by their opinion, or regard as such what they deem supremely excellent. You must use your own judgment. If you satisfy yourself in approving what is right, you will not only have conquered yourself, as a little while ago I bade you do, but you will have conquered all men and all things.
This then I lay down for your guidance, that a certain breadth of mind, together with the utmost loftiness of soul that can be attained, which is especially manifest in scorn and contempt for pain, is the one most excellent thing of all, and the more excellent, if it is independent of the people, and not seeking applause, finds delight in its very self. Indeed, all things seem to me more praiseworthy which are done without ostentation, and not in order to be seen by the multitude, — not that their, observation is to be shunned (for everything that is well done craves to be placed in the light); but yet there is no greater theatre for virtue than one’s own consciousness.
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy, Editor, and Argumentation and Effective Reasoning Specialist
(and Competent Toastmaster)
Beautifully stated. Wow. Cicero did earn his reputation.
Now, let’s see if Paul George paired this with Jesus talking about praying with the door closed instead of as Pharisees did…
Biblical Jesus via Matthew 6: 1-4
1 “Be careful not to perform your righteous acts before men to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2 So when you give to the needy, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. Truly I tell you, they already have their full reward.
3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
4 so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
Steefen
My memory comes in the next verses.
5 And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. Truly I tell you, they already have their full reward.
6 But when you pray, go into your inner room, shut your door, and pray to your Father, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
Steefen, Argumentation and Effective Reasoning Specialist and Editor
I am going to agree with Paul George on Secret Piety: this Cicero-Jesus set has a common theme.
Any comments to add to what Cicero said and what the Biblical Jesus said many years after Cicero by Greco-Roman author/s of The Gospel of Matthew about secret piety?
13 Theme Universal Love
14 Truth
19 There is one god
20 In the beginning was the Word
23 God sees all
24 Souls are immortal
= = =
I am interested in:
14 Truth
= = =
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: TBD
20 Theme: Truth
Cicero Reference: De officiis (on duties), Book 1.13
New Testament Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Above all, the search after truth and its eager pursuit are peculiar to man. And so, when we have leisure from the demands of business cares, we are eager to see, to hear, to learn something new, and we esteem a desire to know the secrets or wonders of creation as indispensable to a happy life. Thus we come to understand that what is true, simple, and genuine appeals most strongly to a man’s nature. To this passion for discovering truth there is added a hungering, as it were, for independence, so that a mind well-moulded by Nature is unwilling to be subject to anybody save one who gives rules of conduct or is a teacher of truth or who, for the general good, rules according to justice and law. From this attitude come greatness of soul and a sense of superiority to worldly conditions.
Jesus
John 18: 37
… For this reason I was born and have come into the world: to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to My voice.
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
Next verse.
Pilate asked, What is truth?
Steefen
What are you, Jesus, a sage [that what you speak is truth]?
Pilate
“I find no basis for a charge against Him.”
= = =
I am not going to agree with Paul George on Truth being a Cicero-Jesus common theme: Jesus claims to be the object of passion
for those who would have greatness of soul and a sense of superiority to worldly conditions. Gospel-writers pre-market Jesus as an object of humanity’s nature and humans should subject themselves to Jesus who is a teacher of truth.
Any comments to add to what Cicero said and what the Biblical Jesus said many years after Cicero by Greco-Roman author/s of The Gospel of John about truth?
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
1 Guest(s)