Steefen said
The Catholic Study BibleMatthew / Chapter 25
1 Then the kingdom of heaven will be like …
14 The Parable of the Talents / It will be as when a man who was going on a journey
The Parables of Jesus, Red Letter Edition, The Jesus Seminar
The Parable of Entrusted Money, pages 54-55
The Wisdom of the Parables categorizes The Parable of the Talents under “Vocation”. The Vocation List:
Wheat and Tares
Workers in the Vineyard
The Talents
The Unjust Steward
The Lighted Candle
The Body’s Lamp
The Rich Fool
The Tower Builder and the Warrior King
I thought we sent you home with fabulous parting gifts.
Or was that Jarek?
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: Maybe
1 Theme: True Law
Cicero Reference: De re publica (on the Republic), book 3.22
Gospel Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: Yes
2 Theme: True Glory
Cicero Reference: On duties, Book 2.43
Gospel Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: Maybe
3 Theme: True Worship
Cicero Reference: De natura deorum (on the nature of the gods), Book 2.28
New Testament Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: Maybe
4 Theme: The Universe is God’s Temple
Cicero: Scipio’s Dream, 15
New Testament Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: Yes
5 Theme: A place in heaven reserved for the righteous
Cicero Reference: Scipio’s Dream, 5 and Scipio’s Dream, 15
Gospel Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: No
6 Theme: Marriage
Cicero Reference: De finibus bonorum et malorum (“On the ends of good and evil) Book 4.17
Gospel Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: No
7 Theme: God does not require costly sacrifices
Cicero Reference: De legibus (on laws), Book 2
New Testament Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: No
8 Theme: Riches
Cicero Reference: De officiis (on duties) Book 2.56
New Testament Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: Yes
9 Theme: The Duty to Invest
Cicero Reference: De officis (on duties) Book 2.87
New Testament Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: TBD
10 Theme: Charity
Cicero Reference: De officiis (on duties) Book 1.52
New Testament Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: No
11 Theme: Jewish Religion Condemned
Cicero Reference: Pro Flacco (in defense of Lucius Valerius Flaccus for extortion) 67
New Testament Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: TBD
12 Theme: Children
Cicero Reference: The first book of the second pleading against Caius Verres, 153
Cicero Reference: De finibus (On the ends of good and evil), Book 5.43
New Testament Reference: Matthew 19: 13-14
= = =
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: TBD
10 Theme: Charity
Cicero Reference: De officiis (on duties) Book 1.52
New Testament Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero
** you do not have permission to see this link **
[52] On this principle we have the following maxims:
Deny no one the water that flows by;
Let anyone who will take fire from our fire;
Honest counsel give to one who is in doubt;
[p. 57] for such acts are useful to the recipient and cause the giver no loss. We should, therefore, adopt these principles and always be contributing something to the common weal. But since the resources of individuals are limited and the number of the needy is infinite, this spirit of universal liberality must be regulated according to that test of Ennius—“No less shines his” —in order that we may continue to have the means for being generous to our friends.
Jesus (Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 5)
42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Steefen
I see this to be sufficiently common ideas on a theme–Ciceronian ideas adopted by the gospel writers..
Anyone else,
Care to comment in an edifying way on whether or not this Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme?
Any comment in an edifying way on the others mentioned earlier in the thread?
If not, the tally is
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: Maybe
1 Theme: True Law
Cicero Reference: De re publica (on the Republic), book 3.22
Gospel Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: Yes
2 Theme: True Glory
Cicero Reference: On duties, Book 2.43
Gospel Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: Maybe
3 Theme: True Worship
Cicero Reference: De natura deorum (on the nature of the gods), Book 2.28
New Testament Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: Maybe
4 Theme: The Universe is God’s Temple
Cicero: Scipio’s Dream, 15
New Testament Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: Yes
5 Theme: A place in heaven reserved for the righteous
Cicero Reference: Scipio’s Dream, 5 and Scipio’s Dream, 15
Gospel Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: No
6 Theme: Marriage
Cicero Reference: De finibus bonorum et malorum (“On the ends of good and evil) Book 4.17
Gospel Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: No
7 Theme: God does not require costly sacrifices
Cicero Reference: De legibus (on laws), Book 2
New Testament Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: No
8 Theme: Riches
Cicero Reference: De officiis (on duties) Book 2.56
New Testament Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: Yes
9 Theme: The Duty to Invest
Cicero Reference: De officis (on duties) Book 2.87
New Testament Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: Yes
10 Theme: Charity
Cicero Reference: De officiis (on duties) Book 1.52
New Testament Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: No
11 Theme: Jewish Religion Condemned
Cicero Reference: Pro Flacco (in defense of Lucius Valerius Flaccus for extortion) 67
New Testament Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: TBD
12 Theme: Children
Cicero Reference: The first book of the second pleading against Caius Verres, 153
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero Reference: De finibus (On the ends of good and evil), Book 5.43
New Testament Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
No >4 out of 11
Yes > 4 out of 11
Maybe > 3 out of 11
Have you considered the possibility that some ideas may be found in common elsewhere. A mere similarity in a few ideas does not necessary establish a direct influence. Sadly, it is also quite possible that we do not have surviving written accounts to make a full judgement in this regard.
JAS said
Have you considered the possibility that some ideas may be found in common elsewhere. A mere similarity in a few ideas does not necessary establish a direct influence. Sadly, it is also quite possible that we do not have surviving written accounts to make a full judgement in this regard.
You can explore that possibility. I am investigating Paul George.
Steefen said
JAS said
Have you considered the possibility that some ideas may be found in common elsewhere. A mere similarity in a few ideas does not necessary establish a direct influence. Sadly, it is also quite possible that we do not have surviving written accounts to make a full judgement in this regard.
You can explore that possibility. I am investigating Paul George.
I am not particularly interested in exploring that possibility. You asked for edifying responses, but if you simply define “edifying” as agreeing with your already set ideas, then no.
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: TBD
12 Theme: Children
Cicero Reference: The first book of the second pleading against Caius Verres, 153
Cicero Reference: De finibus (On the ends of good and evil), Book 5.43
New Testament Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero
Cicero Reference: The first book of the second pleading against Caius Verres, 153
** you do not have permission to see this link **
[153] Nor were the tears which were shed for him shed more by the people than by us, and by yourself, O Hortensius, and by those who are to pronounce sentence in this cause. For because it is the common cause of all men, the common danger of all men, such wickedness like a conflagration must be put out by the common endeavours of all men. For we have little children; it is uncertain how long the life of each individual among us may last. We, while alive, ought to take care and provide that their desolate condition and childhood may be secured by the strongest possible protection. For who is there who can defend the childhood of our children against the dishonesty of magistrates? Their mother, I suppose. No doubt, the mother of Annia, though a most noble woman, was a great protection to her when she was left a minor. No doubt she, by imploring the aid of gods and men, prevented him from robbing her infant ward of her father’s fortunes. Can their guardians defend them? Very easily, no doubt, with a praetor of that sort by whom both the arguments, and the earnestness, and the authority of Marcus Marcellus in the cause of his ward Junius were disregarded.
Pick up at Matthew 19:L 13-14
JAS said
Steefen said
JAS said
Have you considered the possibility that some ideas may be found in common elsewhere. A mere similarity in a few ideas does not necessary establish a direct influence. Sadly, it is also quite possible that we do not have surviving written accounts to make a full judgement in this regard.
You can explore that possibility. I am investigating Paul George.
I am not particularly interested in exploring that possibility. You asked for edifying responses, but if you simply define “edifying” as agreeing with your already set ideas, then no.
What is already set is that I am investigating Paul George. After that, I might explore Bart Ehrman’s book that mentions ideas of Virgil influencing Christian tours of heaven and and hell.
Going off into the weeds on your whim you’re “not particularly interested in exploring,” not even with a source to explore, is outside of what I have been doing up to this point.
Just reading your posts, no one ever has any real idea of what you are doing, pretty clearly including you. As TTHorne56 commented, this really should not be your notepad. This is the kind of thing you should do in private. And pretty much anything that might be of use is outside of what you are currently doing up to this point.
Steefen, quoting an Amazon (I think) review of Dr. Ehrman’s book:
““
Dr. Ehrman does do a comparative analysis and notes some common themes. There are also substantial differences which he also notes. Nowhere, however, does he “observe” or otherwise claim that Jewish or Christian authors are directly influenced by Virgil. I would think that would be impossible to prove unless you have direct quotes from Virgil (or Homer for that matter).
TTHorne56 said
Steefen, quoting an Amazon (I think) review of Dr. Ehrman’s book:““
Dr. Ehrman does do a comparative analysis and notes some common themes. There are also substantial differences which he also notes. Nowhere, however, does he “observe” or otherwise claim that Jewish or Christian authors are directly influenced by Virgil. I would think that would be impossible to prove unless you have direct quotes from Virgil (or Homer for that matter).
Yes, M Jeffrey McMahon is an amazon, verified purchase, reviewer who gave Bart’s book 5 stars.
= = =
The works of Virgil came before the gospels, Acts, and the letters of Paul.
“Dr. Ehrman does do a comparative analysis and notes some common themes” without observing common themes?
As for direct quotes from Homer, see, Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark by Dennis R. MacDonald.
Also read and study The Gospel of God: Romans as Paul’s Aeneid by David R. Wallace.
Paul was directly influenced by Virgil. I am glad for McMahon’s review of Bart’s book: it makes me want to see what Bart adds to what Dr. Wallace wrote.
= = =
12 Theme: Children
Cicero Reference: The first book of the second pleading against Caius Verres, 153
Cicero Reference: De finibus (On the ends of good and evil), Book 5.43
New Testament Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero
Cicero Reference: The first book of the second pleading against Caius Verres, 153
** you do not have permission to see this link **
[153] Nor were the tears which were shed for him shed more by the people than by us, and by yourself, O Hortensius, and by those who are to pronounce sentence in this cause. For because it is the common cause of all men, the common danger of all men, such wickedness like a conflagration must be put out by the common endeavours of all men. For we have little children; it is uncertain how long the life of each individual among us may last. We, while alive, ought to take care and provide that their desolate condition and childhood may be secured by the strongest possible protection. For who is there who can defend the childhood of our children against the dishonesty of magistrates? Their mother, I suppose. No doubt, the mother of Annia, though a most noble woman, was a great protection to her when she was left a minor. No doubt she, by imploring the aid of gods and men, prevented him from robbing her infant ward of her father’s fortunes. Can their guardians defend them? Very easily, no doubt, with a praetor of that sort by whom both the arguments, and the earnestness, and the authority of Marcus Marcellus in the cause of his ward Junius were disregarded.
Jesus
Matthew Chapter 19
13 Then the little children were brought to Jesus for Him to place His hands on them and pray for them. And the disciples rebuked those who brought them.
14 But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them! For the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”
Steefen
This is precisely why I am double checking what Paul George has proposed.
The Cicero quote is not partnered well with what he provided from Matthew. If I were editing his book or improving on what he is proposing, I would partner the Cicero quote with Matthew 18: 6-7 concerning “Protecting Children.”
“If anyone causes one of these little ones-those who believe in me-to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!” (Matthew 18:6-7, NIV)
Is there a Cicero-Jesus set that does express common ideas on the theme “Protecting Children?” Answer: Yes
Cicero Reference: De finibus (On the ends of good and evil), Book 5.43
It is that human capacity is so constituted by nature that it appears designed to achieve every kind of virtue; hence children, without instruction, are actuated by semblances of the virtues, of which they posses in themselves the seeds, for these are primary elements of our nature, and they spout and blossom into virtue.
For we are so constituted from birth as to contain within us the primary instincts of action, of affection, of liberality and of gratitude; we are also gifted with minds that are adapted to knowledge, prudence and courage, and averse from their opposites; hence there is a reason why we observe in children those sparks of virtue I have mentioned, from which the philosopher’s torch of reason must be kindled, that he may follow reason as his divine guide and so arrive at nature’s goal.
For as I have repeatedly said already, in the years of immaturity when the intellect is weak, the powers of our nature are discerned as through a mist; but as the mind grows older and stronger, it learns to know the capacity of our nature, while recognizing that this nature is susceptible of further development and has by itself only reached an incomplete condition.
page 443 of the 1999 reprint of the 1931 second edition, Loeb Classical Library, Cicero, Volume 17, On Ends, translated by H. Rackham
Steefen
Paul George provided two references to Cicero.
The way Cicero describes virtues, if children have seeds of virtue and are averse from their opposites, Jesus does not want children to stumble into the opposites of virtue.
Interesting possibility.
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: Maybe
1 Theme: True Law
Cicero Reference: De re publica (on the Republic), book 3.22
Gospel Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: Yes
2 Theme: True Glory
Cicero Reference: On duties, Book 2.43
Gospel Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: Maybe
3 Theme: True Worship
Cicero Reference: De natura deorum (on the nature of the gods), Book 2.28
New Testament Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: Maybe
4 Theme: The Universe is God’s Temple
Cicero: Scipio’s Dream, 15
New Testament Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: Yes
5 Theme: A place in heaven reserved for the righteous
Cicero Reference: Scipio’s Dream, 5 and Scipio’s Dream, 15
Gospel Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: No
6 Theme: Marriage
Cicero Reference: De finibus bonorum et malorum (“On the ends of good and evil) Book 4.17
Gospel Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: No
7 Theme: God does not require costly sacrifices
Cicero Reference: De legibus (on laws), Book 2
New Testament Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: No
8 Theme: Riches
Cicero Reference: De officiis (on duties) Book 2.56
New Testament Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: Yes
9 Theme: The Duty to Invest
Cicero Reference: De officis (on duties) Book 2.87
New Testament Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: Yes
10 Theme: Charity
Cicero Reference: De officiis (on duties) Book 1.52
New Testament Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: No
11 Theme: Jewish Religion Condemned
Cicero Reference: Pro Flacco (in defense of Lucius Valerius Flaccus for extortion) 67
New Testament Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: Yes
12 Theme: Protecting Children
Cicero Reference: The first book of the second pleading against Caius Verres, 153
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Cicero Reference: De finibus (On the ends of good and evil), Book 5.43
New Testament Reference: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
No >4 out of 12
Yes > 5 out of 12
Maybe > 3 out of 12
= = = = = = = = = = =
13 Theme Universal Love
14 Truth
15 Secret Piety
16 Wisdom in the Perfect Man
17 God is good
18 God is love
19 There is one god
20 In the beginning was the Word
21 God is the judge
22 God punishes wrongdoers
23 God sees all
24 Souls are immortal
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme: TBD
17 Theme: God is good
Cicero Reference: De natura deorum (On the nature of the gods), Book 1.43.
New Testament Reference: Luke 18: 19
Cicero
** you do not have permission to see this link **
43 120
“For my own part I believe that even that very eminent man Democritus, the fountain-head from which Epicurus derived the streams that watered his little garden, has no fixed opinion about the nature of the gods.
At one moment he holds the view that the universe includes images endowed with divinity;
at another he says that there exist in this same universe the elements from which the mind is compounded, and that these are gods;
at another, that they are animate images, which are wont to exercise a beneficent or harmful influence over us;
and again p117 that they are certain vast images of such a size as to envelop and enfold the entire world.
47 All these fancies are more worthy of Democritus’s native city48 than of himself;
121 for who could form a mental picture of such images? who could adore them and deem them worthy of worship or reverence?
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Beneficent: helping people and doing good acts.
Beneficial: helpful, useful or good.
Benefit: a helpful or good effect, or something intended to help.
Benevolent: kind and helpful.
Jul 31, 2010
beneficient vs benevolent | UsingEnglish.com ESL Forum
As adjectives the difference between beneficent and benevolent is that
beneficent is given to acts that are kind, charitable, philanthropic or beneficial while
benevolent is having a disposition to do good.
Wikidiff.com
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
“Epicurus however, in abolishing divine beneficence and divine benevolence, uprooted and exterminated all religion from the human heart. For while asserting the supreme goodness and excellence of the divine nature, he yet denies to god the attribute of benevolence — that is to say, he does away with that which is the most essential element of supreme goodness and excellence.
For what can be better or more excellent than kindness and beneficence? Make out god to be devoid of either, and you make him devoid of all love, affection or esteem for any other being, human or divine.
It follows not merely that the gods do not care for mankind, but that they have no care for one another.
Jesus from Luke Chapter 18, vs 19
Why do you call Me good?” Jesus replied.
“No one is good except God alone.
Steefen
Cicero says, if you have no fixed opinion about the nature of a god or gods that god is not worthy, worthy of worship or reverence.
If a god is not disposed to acts of kindness and helpfulness and actually perform such acts, that god is not loving, has no affection, and should not be esteemed. That god would not be a caring god so far as humans are concerned and as far as other gods are concerned.
That brings up the amorality of a god.
Argument:
God must be good to be worthy.
Humans must have a fixed opinion about the nature of God.
Gods are worthy of worship and reverence.
Therefore God is good.
Gods need to care, be kind, helpful, and loving towards humans.
Therefore God is good.
Paul George got it wrong again. This time it is nonsense (even from Cicero).
God must be good does not necessarily lead to the conclusion God is good.
Jesus says God is good but God was not good enough to parent/guide/coach Jesus to be a political success: Son of Man coming in his glory for the Kingdom of Heaven on earth to manifest (Matthew 16: 28). Year 30 C.E. to 73 C.E., neither Jesus nor a third person Jewish Son of Man judged the people for entrance into the Kingdom of God/Heaven/Righteousness.
Cicero-Jesus set expresses common ideas on theme?
Yes, but I do not like the way Cicero and Jesus came to their conclusions, so, I judging against the resolution on this one. It is a low quality expression of a common idea, in my opinion.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
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Robert
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