If Jesus was quoting passages from the Torah that the Jewish people and Sanhedrin know about;
I’m μεν pretty sure it was understood by most everybody that Jesus was referring to the ancient Hebrew God.
Although δε they might not agree 100% about all the theological details.
The John the Baptist-claiming Mandaeans believe that Abraham was first a priest of the water absolution god Hayyi (who I believe is Persianized as the water absolution god Hayya with an a, in Ebla). One of Hayya’s functions is Creator of The Material World, and is also called the Living (God) as an epithet — so that works really well at the beginning of the watery earth creation in Genesis.
It is academic consensus that the Hebrew Bible God is compromised of syncretized gods — Ba’al, El, and Yah/Yahweh, at the least.
Imo they mashed different deities together simply because the Hebrews, far travelers, traveled through those places – Mesopotamia (Ea/Hayya/Enki), Aramaea, (Ba’al), Canaan (El).
The authors of the Hebrew Bible just simply update names to the new name that the people call the thing. For example, Egypt wasn’t called Egypt, it’s name was Kemet.
In my original hypothesis, the Delta Egypt adds Yah because that’s a Hyksos favorite god (maybe through Mari Yahdun-Lim?), and then the Desert adds Yahweh (imo the Baal that is Seth replaced by Ha.)
EDEN-NA
In a Sumerian myth
They (the chief deities) created humanity
2 After the [animals/vermin?] were proliferating below/from the earth in unison
3 They made livestock and quadrupeds as fitting things in the steppe(eden-na)
4 In the high steppe … joyous plants broadly
5 At that time, the canal was not dug …
6 The dike and ditch [were not dredged(?) …]
7 The ox … the plow/farmer/furrow(?) …
8 The lands … a single track …
9 Humanity … their eyes/faces … [rain?]
10 Šakkan/Šumugan [did not go out(?)] in the desert …
11 Weaving the cap/headcloth(?) …
12 Humanity …
13 At that time, the snake was not present, [the scorpion was not present …]
14 The lion was not present, [the hyena was not present …]
15 The dog and wolf were not present …
16 Humanity [had no opponent …]
17 Fear and [gooseflesh(?) were not present …]
Sounds beautiful
Jesus’ father, Jesus’ god is Enki through Ebla, instead of the seven or eight original cities of Sumer?
= = = = =
Steefen
When was the Ancient city of Ebla started?
Chat GPT
The ancient city of Ebla (modern Tell Mardikh, Syria) was founded around 3000 BCE, during the Early Bronze Age. It became a major political and economic center in the 3rd millennium BCE, reaching its peak between 2500–2250 BCE.
Ebla’s rise is evident from the Ebla Tablets, a vast archive of cuneiform texts (written in Sumerian and Eblaite) discovered in the 1970s. These tablets, dating to around 2350 BCE, provide insight into Ebla’s administration, trade, and interactions with Sumer, Akkad, and Mari.
The city was destroyed around 2250 BCE, possibly by Sargon of Akkad or his grandson Naram-Sin. It was later rebuilt and continued as a regional center until its final destruction by the Sea Peoples or the Hittites around 1200 BCE.
Steefen
The Original Seven (or Eight) Cities of Sumer
Eridu (c. 5400 BCE) – The oldest known Sumerian city, associated with the god Enki and the origin of kingship.
Uruk (c. 4000 BCE) – The legendary city of Gilgamesh, known for the first monumental architecture and writing.
Bad-Tibira (c. 4000 BCE?) – A key industrial and religious center, linked to the god Dumuzid.
Larak (c. 3500 BCE?) – A less well-documented city, mentioned in the Sumerian King List.
Sippar (c. 3500 BCE) – A center of sun-god worship, later divided into Sippar-Amnanum and Sippar-Yahrurum.
Shuruppak (c. 3000 BCE) – Associated with the flood hero Ziusudra and a major scribal center.
Nippur (c. 3500 BCE) – The religious capital of Sumer, dedicated to Enlil.
Kish (c. 3100 BCE) – The first post-flood city to claim kingship, prominent in early dynastic history.
So Ebla interacted with which of the 8 cities of Sumer?
Chat
Ebla (c. 3000–2250 BCE) had extensive trade and diplomatic interactions with several Sumerian cities, as evidenced by the Ebla Tablets (c. 2350 BCE). These tablets record Ebla’s relations with Mesopotamian powers, particularly Sumer and Akkad. Based on available evidence, the Sumerian cities that Ebla likely interacted with include:
Confirmed or Highly Likely Interactions
Ur – Ebla’s texts mention significant trade in wool, silver, and textiles with Ur, one of Sumer’s most powerful cities at the time.
Nippur – As the religious capital of Sumer, Nippur had widespread influence, and Ebla’s kings may have acknowledged Enlil’s authority.
Kish – Kish was an early center of kingship and likely played a role in diplomacy and trade with Ebla.
Mari (not in Sumer but crucial) – Mari served as a key intermediary between Ebla and Sumer, controlling trade routes leading into Mesopotamia.
Possible but Less Certain Interactions
Lagash – While Lagash was an economic power, especially in later periods, direct references to it in Eblaite texts are scarce.
Uruk – By 2350 BCE, Uruk had lost some of its dominance, but it remained an important religious and cultural center that Ebla may have engaged with.
Shuruppak – Known for scribal traditions, Shuruppak may have had intellectual or administrative links to Ebla.
Less Likely Interactions
Bad-Tibira & Larak – These cities were primarily religious or industrial hubs rather than major trade centers in the 3rd millennium BCE. There is little evidence linking them directly to Ebla.
Overall Summary
Ebla’s main interactions were likely with Ur, Nippur, and Kish, with Mari serving as a conduit for trade and diplomacy. The Akkadian Empire under Sargon and Naram-Sin later disrupted these networks, contributing to Ebla’s destruction around 2250 BCE.
Ebla learned of Enki from the Sumerians?
Chat
Yes, it is very likely that Ebla learned of Enki from the Sumerians through cultural and trade interactions. The Ebla Tablets (c. 2350 BCE) contain references to deities that resemble Mesopotamian gods, including Enki (Ea in Akkadian).
Evidence of Enki’s Influence in Ebla
Similarities in the Pantheon – Ebla had a rich pantheon that included gods with attributes similar to Mesopotamian deities. The Eblaite god Ea (or Hayya) appears to be a direct borrowing or local adaptation of Enki, the Sumerian god of wisdom, water, and creation.
Trade and Diplomacy with Sumer – Since Ebla had strong trade ties with cities like Ur, Kish, and Nippur, religious and cultural exchange was inevitable. Sumerian influence extended beyond commerce to administration, writing, and theology.
Cuneiform Writing and Sumerian Influence – The fact that Ebla used Sumerian cuneiform for many of its records suggests direct exposure to Sumerian religious and literary traditions, including myths about Enki.
Enki’s Role as a Civilizing God – Enki was associated with wisdom, irrigation, and the foundations of civilization—concepts that were highly relevant to both Sumer and Ebla, which relied on water management and trade for prosperity.
Did Ebla Worship Enki Directly?
While there is no clear evidence that Ebla worshiped Enki in the same way the Sumerians did, they likely acknowledged his influence and may have equated him with their own local water or wisdom deity. Later, Akkadian influence helped spread Enki’s worship even further across Mesopotamia and the Levant.
Were there 3 incarnations of Ebla? I read that it was destroyed and recreated about 3 times.
Chat
Yes, Ebla went through three major incarnations, each marked by destruction and rebuilding. These phases correspond to different historical periods, with the city playing a significant role in the political and economic landscape of ancient Syria and Mesopotamia.
1st Incarnation: Early Bronze Age Ebla (c. 3000–2250 BCE)
Foundation: Ebla emerged around 3000 BCE and became a powerful trade hub by 2500 BCE, rivaling Sumerian and Akkadian cities.
Peak: During this time, Ebla controlled a vast network of trade routes, linking Mesopotamia, Anatolia, and the Levant. The Ebla Tablets (c. 2350 BCE) come from this period.
Destruction: Around 2250 BCE, Ebla was destroyed, likely by Naram-Sin of Akkad, who expanded the Akkadian Empire across Syria. This marked the end of the first Eblaite kingdom.
2nd Incarnation: Middle Bronze Age Ebla (c. 2000–1600 BCE)
Rebuilding: Around 2000 BCE, Ebla was revived and became a vassal state of the Kingdom of Yamkhad (Aleppo).
Cultural and Economic Recovery: While not as independent as before, Ebla remained an important center for trade, diplomacy, and culture.
Second Destruction: Around 1600 BCE, the Hittites, led by Mursili I, destroyed Ebla during their campaign against Aleppo. This marked the end of the second kingdom.
3rd Incarnation: Late Bronze Age Ebla (c. 1600–1200 BCE)
Reconstruction: After the Hittite destruction, Ebla was rebuilt, though it never regained its former power.
Final Decline: Around 1200 BCE, Ebla was completely abandoned, possibly due to the Sea Peoples’ invasions or the general collapse of Late Bronze Age civilizations.
Aftermath:
The site of Tell Mardikh remained inhabited in later periods but never as a major city.
By the Iron Age, other cities, such as Damascus and Aleppo, became dominant in the region.
So if Ebla came to an end around 1200 BCE, why is someone telling me Jesus knew of Enki by the name Hayya via Ebla?
Chat GPT
If someone is claiming that Jesus knew of Enki as Hayya via Ebla, they are likely misunderstanding the historical timeline and cultural transmission of religious ideas. Let’s break this down logically:
1. Ebla’s Decline and the Gap to Jesus’ Time
Ebla ceased to exist as a major power by 1200 BCE and was abandoned after the Late Bronze Age collapse.
By the time of Jesus (1st century CE), Ebla had been gone for over a thousand years.
The cultural and religious traditions of Ebla did not persist directly into the time of Jesus in any significant form.
2. The Name “Hayya” and Enki
In the Ebla Tablets (c. 2350 BCE), “Hayya” appears as a deity, possibly linked to Ea/Enki, but this is debated.
Some scholars propose that Hayya is related to Ea (Akkadian name for Enki), though others see Hayya as a distinct deity.
Even if Hayya was associated with Enki, there is no evidence that this name was transmitted continuously for 2,000+ years into Jesus’ era.
3. The Religious Landscape of Jesus’ Time
By the 1st century CE, Near Eastern religious traditions had changed drastically.
The dominant religious ideas in Jesus’ world came from:
Judaism (Yahweh, not Enki or Hayya)
Greco-Roman religion (Zeus, Jupiter, Hermes, etc.)
Persian influences (Zoroastrianism, Ahura Mazda, etc.)
There is no evidence that Jesus or his contemporaries referenced Enki/Ea or Eblaite deities.
4. Possible Misinterpretations
The claim that Jesus knew Enki as Hayya via Ebla might be based on:
A confusion between Eblaite and later traditions (e.g., Sumerian myths influencing later cultures, but not in a direct, unbroken chain to Jesus).
A misunderstanding of linguistic connections (Hayya sounds similar to some Hebrew words, but that doesn’t mean Jesus used it in an Enki-related sense).
Esoteric or fringe theories trying to link ancient Mesopotamian deities to later Abrahamic religions, but without solid historical backing.
Conclusion: Jesus Would Not Have Known Enki as Hayya
Ebla was long gone before Jesus’ time.
Hayya was not a common name for Enki in later traditions.
There is no historical link between Jesus’ teachings and Eblaite religious concepts.
Possible Misinterpretations
The claim that Jesus knew Enki as Hayya via Ebla might be based on:
A confusion between Eblaite and later traditions (e.g., Sumerian myths influencing later cultures, but not in a direct, unbroken chain to Jesus).
A misunderstanding of linguistic connections (Hayya sounds similar to some Hebrew words, but that doesn’t mean Jesus used it in an Enki-related sense).
Esoteric or fringe theories trying to link ancient Mesopotamian deities to later Abrahamic religions, but without solid historical backing.
Conclusion: Jesus Would Not Have Known Enki as Hayya
Ebla was long gone before Jesus’ time.
Hayya was not a common name for Enki in later traditions.
There is no historical link between Jesus’ teachings and Eblaite religious concepts.
Steefen
Was Enki known in the Roman Empire’s territory, Syria?
Chat
Yes, Enki (Ea in Akkadian) was known in the territories that later became part of the Roman Empire, including Syria, but his worship had faded by the time of Jesus. Here’s how Enki’s influence persisted in the region:
1. Enki’s Presence in Mesopotamian and Syrian Cultures
In the Early and Middle Bronze Ages (3000–1600 BCE), Enki was widely worshiped across Mesopotamia, Ebla, Mari, and Syria.
The Ebla Tablets (c. 2350 BCE) contain possible references to a god similar to Enki, possibly under the name Hayya or another local variant.
In Ugarit (c. 1400 BCE, in modern Syria), there is no direct mention of Enki, but elements of his attributes (wisdom, water, creation) appear in El and Kothar-wa-Khasis, the Canaanite craftsman god.
2. Enki’s Influence in Later Near Eastern Traditions
By the Iron Age (1200–600 BCE), Mesopotamian influence persisted in Syria through Assyrian and Babylonian rule. Enki’s myths likely influenced later Semitic thought, though his worship declined.
The Persians (Achaemenid Empire, 6th–4th century BCE) controlled Syria and inherited Mesopotamian religious ideas. Enki’s characteristics may have influenced Ahura Mazda or Zurvanist dualism.
Hellenistic Period (4th–1st century BCE): After Alexander the Great, Greek syncretism merged Near Eastern deities with Greek gods. Enki’s wisdom aspect may have influenced Hermes or Poseidon, but his direct worship faded.
3. Was Enki Known in Roman Syria (1st Century CE, Jesus’ Time)?
By the Roman period (64 BCE–4th century CE), Enki was no longer actively worshiped, though his influence survived in:
Mystery cults and esoteric traditions (e.g., Gnostic and Hermetic traditions that valued hidden wisdom).
Continuing Babylonian astrology, which the Romans absorbed.
Judeo-Christian texts, where remnants of Mesopotamian myth (like the flood story) were still present, but with transformed meanings.
Conclusion: Enki Was Known, But Not Worshiped
In Jesus’ time, Syria was deeply influenced by Greco-Roman, Jewish, and Persian traditions.
Enki’s legacy was preserved in myths, esoteric traditions, and astrology but not as an active deity.
It’s unlikely that Jesus or his contemporaries had direct knowledge of Enki, though ancient Mesopotamian wisdom traditions still influenced broader religious thought.
Enki was known in the Parthian Empire from the time of Julius Caesar to 100 CE?
Yes, Enki (Ea in Akkadian) was still known in the Parthian Empire from the time of Julius Caesar (mid-1st century BCE) to 100 CE, though he was no longer actively worshiped as a central deity. His presence during this period is best understood through:
1. Enki’s Legacy in Late Babylonian Religion
Babylon was under Parthian rule from the mid-2nd century BCE onward, and Enki/Ea remained part of astronomy, divination, and religious texts in the region.
The Chaldean priesthood, known for astrology and temple scholarship, continued to use Enki’s name in magical and religious contexts.
Cuneiform texts from Hellenistic and Parthian Babylon (c. 100 BCE–100 CE) show that Enki (Ea) was still referenced in rituals, incantations, and scholarly traditions.
2. Enki’s Connection to Mandaean Religion
The Mandaeans, a Gnostic sect that emerged in Parthian-era Mesopotamia, venerated a god of wisdom and water resembling Enki (Ea).
Some Mandaean texts refer to Ea, suggesting that Enki’s role persisted in esoteric religious thought even if mainstream worship had declined.
3. Enki in Parthian Astrology and Mysticism
Enki had long been associated with wisdom, magic, and cosmic knowledge, and these themes survived in Hellenistic astrology and Parthian-era divination.
Greek, Babylonian, and Iranian influences mixed in Parthian intellectual circles, with astrologers and scholars in Babylon still referencing Enki/Ea as a source of hidden knowledge.
Conclusion: Enki Was Still Known, But Not Worshiped
Between 50 BCE and 100 CE, Enki’s name and myths were still referenced in Babylonian religious traditions, magical texts, and possibly in Mandaean theology.
However, he was no longer an actively worshiped deity—his role had been absorbed into astrology, esoteric knowledge, and later Gnostic traditions.
Steefen
Known but not worshiped you say.
Parthians thought Enki and Nintu created humans?
ChatGPT
While there is no direct evidence that the Parthians specifically believed Enki (Ea) and Nintu (or Ninhursag) created humans in the same way as the ancient Sumerians, it is likely that Mesopotamian traditions concerning the creation of humanity did influence Parthian religious thought. Here’s a closer look at the dynamics:
1. The Sumerian Creation Myth of Enki and Nintu
In Sumerian mythology, Enki (god of water, wisdom, and creation) and Nintu (a mother goddess, often linked with the earth) were believed to have played a central role in creating humanity. In the Enki and Nintu myth, they created humans using clay, with Enki providing the life-giving waters and Nintu giving humanity its flesh. This creation story was foundational in Sumerian cosmology and influenced later civilizations, including the Akkadians, Babylonians, and Assyrians.
2. Parthian Influence and the Decline of Polytheistic Beliefs
By the time of the Parthian Empire, traditional Mesopotamian myths (including those about Enki and Nintu) had been incorporated into a broader religious context. However, the Parthian Empire was a Zoroastrian-influenced society, which focused on Ahura Mazda as the supreme deity. Despite this, Mesopotamian deities and myths continued to have cultural influence in the region, particularly in Babylon and surrounding areas.
Babylon (part of the Parthian Empire) remained a center for astrology, magic, and religious scholarship—fields where ancient Sumerian and Akkadian myths still held sway.
Enki (as Ea) was still recognized as a god of wisdom, water, and creation, and his attributes likely persisted in astrological and mystic traditions within Parthian-controlled territories. These deities might not have been actively worshiped but were likely still revered in esoteric, scholarly, or divinatory contexts.
3. Zoroastrian Influence
Zoroastrianism, which became dominant in the Parthian Empire, did not explicitly embrace the creation myth of Enki and Nintu. However, Zoroastrianism did have a creation story in which Ahura Mazda creates humanity, and the spiritual world and material world are at odds with each other (similar to the Sumerian myth of divine creation).
Mesopotamian influences on Zoroastrian cosmology and beliefs about creation likely existed in a syncretic form, but Enki and Nintu were probably not seen as creators in the direct sense that they were in the earlier Sumerian tradition.
4. Mandaean Influence
The Mandaeans, an ancient religious group that emerged in Parthian-era Mesopotamia, continued to revere Ea (Enki) as a creator deity in their religious texts.
The Mandaean cosmology includes a god of wisdom and creation, very similar to Enki’s role in earlier traditions. While not mainstream Parthian belief, the Mandaeans might have preserved aspects of the ancient Sumerian and Akkadian creation myths, including the idea of Ea (Enki) playing a role in the creation of humans.
Conclusion:
Enki and Nintu may not have been actively worshiped in the Parthian Empire as they were in earlier Sumerian culture, but their mythological influence persisted, particularly in Babylonian astrology, esoteric traditions, and the Mandaean religion.
It’s possible that the Parthians viewed Enki (or Ea) as a god of wisdom and creation, but this was more likely in a symbolic or intellectual context rather than as a central object of worship.
Steefen said,
So if Ebla came to an end around 1200 BCE, why is someone telling me Jesus knew of Enki by the name Hayya via Ebla?
…Hayya was not a common name for Enki in later traditions.
Unfortunately, Chat is not trained in retrieving academic scholarship unless you have a proprietary model.
The God Hayya (Ea/Enki) at Ebla, Dr. Alfonso Archi, 2010
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(It was so amazing hearing back from Dr. Archi.)
Hayya and Hayyi share significant attributes, so I think it’s possible that they share origins. What do you think?
In ** you do not have permission to see this link **.
| Hayyi Rabbi | |
|---|---|
| Other names | Hayyi, Life, The Great Life, The First Life, Lord of Greatness (Mara ḏ-Rabuta), King of Light, The Great Mind, Truth |
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Wiki link provided for ease of discussion.
Steefen said,
So if Ebla came to an end around 1200 BCE, why is someone telling me Jesus knew of Enki by the name Hayya via Ebla?
…Hayya was not a common name for Enki in later traditions.
Serene
Unfortunately, Chat is not trained in retrieving academic scholarship unless you have a proprietary model.
The God Hayya (Ea/Enki) at Ebla, Dr. Alfonso Archi, 2010
** you do not have permission to see this link **..est_Foster
From Serene’s Original Post
Well, there’s this other god who became the Supreme God of the “world’s first power”, Ebla.
It’s Hayya/Ea/Enki: ** you do not have permission to see this link **..ki_at_Ebla
Ebla contains the first record of Aram, their unsettled countryside which is anachronistically Hellenized in the Bible as Aramaea—think Jacob being Aramaean in Deuteronomy. Ebla receives the Hayyi/Ea/Enki deity from its contact with Mesopotamian Nasoriyah. Narram-Sin’s Nasoriyah Stele marks a date of conquest 23rd C BCE, but contact probably started with peaceful Manistushu and earlier.
Steefen:
I disagree that Jesus knew of Enki through his father as opposed to the god he knew from a Jewish mother.
I disagree that ChatGPT’s input was insignificant to Serene’s assertion.
I’m leaving this discussion because the assertion made by Serene is not developed in a way that holds my interest and I suppose it is an erroneous assertion for reasons provided.
Colin Milton said
The Koran speaks well of the Sabians:Mandaeans as part of the Jews and Christians.Are those words supposed to be proper names or just adjectives?
Example: Father is not a proper name. It’s a title, adjective.
Thank you Colin for that great question, and for the peacock tip. Dr. McGrath is a Platinum Post contributor for Dr. Ehrman whose expertise is in Mandaeanism, and he uses the adjective Sabians (bathers) for them:
I think modern Mandaeans are famous for their peaceful way of life, and in interviews I checked out, the interviewers seem to like their company.
Dr. McGrath just translated the Mandaean Book of John, available here:
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Mary is apparently very highly esteemed in Mandaeism (which like any group of people whose circumstances have them leaving their region, they’re a little spicy about the prior governance.) I just found this in there:
He said, “Come see Meryey
who has forsaken Judaism,
and went to love her lord.
Come, see Meryey,
who has left colorful fabrics and colors,
and went to love her lord.
She has forsaken gold and silver,
and went to love her lord!
She has forsaken phylacteries,
and went to love a man in a turban!”
I just find the passage interesting.
Let’s put the turban mention aside for a moment. Mandaeans believe in a biological father for Jesus that is not Joseph.
That could be reflected here:
Ketubot 3b
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Baraita is referring to a period where the government said that a virgin who is married on Wednesday will submit to intercourse with the prefect [hegmon] first.
Rashi (1040-1105 CE), whose works are the centerpiece of modern Torah study, claims that it was this law that precipitated the rebellion of the Maccabees against the Seleucids. Other exegis places it, perhaps additionally, in the Roman period, and even in Genesis 6:2
The sons of God saw that they were fair, and they took wives for themselves of all that they chose.
In other words, in oral form this law, Ketubot 3b, existed during the period of Jesus’ conception. And this law can possibly offer a naturalistic reading of Luke 1:38
And Mary said, Behold, the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.”
A hegemon is a rare individual, and these requests would likely occur even more rarely, as it is attempted to make it inconvenient for them. I just ask, who could plausibly be considered a hegemon for the period of Jesus’ conception? Who could check the boxes? And Aretas IV’s reign from 9 BC-40 AD seems to fit the best. The gifts of frankincense and myrrh and gold (the products that his kingdom traded from the East) — and also that turban — adds more weight to the possibility.
I’ve returned with receipts 🧾 and a minor correction, because I’ve found that a lot of what I guessed at is simply well-accepted by the niche academic fields that the info exists in. It’s not quite Peggy Hill.
First, a recap of what I don’t think gets discussed enough: the Mandaeans – John the Baptist’s followers and the last living Gnostic sect – believe that Jesus was baptized into their tradition which venerates Hayyi Rabba, “The Great Life”, which is their name for a universal, formless divinity whom they worship through sacred water rites.
Modern Mandaeans say this, but also their ancient and previously secret text, the Haran Gawaitha explains it just fine:
** you do not have permission to see this link **
“And they loved the Lord, that is, Adonai [Yahweh], until in the House of Israel there was created something which was not placed in the womb of Mary, a daughter of Moses [like ‘son of David’, this means ancestor]. It was hidden in her womb for nine months and bewitched her until the nine months were fulfilled and she was in labour and brought forth a messiah[…]and he called the people to himself and spoke of his death and took away some of mysteries of the (Sacred?) Meal and abstained from the Food…and joineth to himself a people, and they are called Christians.”
I added the [bracketed clarifications]. I redacted the polemics with […], but basically, they think that it was John the Baptist, and not Jesus, that gave the unaltered transmission of their faith.)
The receipts:
1. 🧾 I suggested that the Mandaean god could be “Ea exalted to Anuship.”
Dr. E.S. Drower, one of the primary Mandaean specialists:
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“This dual application was characteristic of the cults of Anu and Ea in Sumerian times and Bel and Ea in Babylonian times, so that, if Mandaean thought originated or ripened under Iranian and Far Eastern influences, it had roots in a soil where similar ideals were already familiar and where ablution cults and fertility rites had long been in practice.”
Anu is the formless, unmanifested god. Ea’s domains are knowledge, flowing freshwater, exorcism, medicine, craftsmanship, fertility, and surprisingly, light:
“The concluding lines of the hymn call Enki “light of Eridu” – Dr. Eespak, 2006, Ancient Near Eastern Gods Enki and Ea: A Diachronic Analysis.
This is because the star
“Canopus is Enki/Ea’s visible manifestation.” Dr. Nugent, 1993
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Canopus, as I’ve written before, is also hypothesized to be the Star of Bethlehem: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Canopus marked the location of Enki’s temple of Eridu at its founding c. 5400 BCE, but star procession means that on a (hypothetical) January 6, 4 BCE nativity, it would be visible 3°-4° above Bethlehem’s horizon — and because it is near-circumpolar at that latitude, with much more movement laterally than vertically — you could follow it and then it would appear to “hover” from the right approach.
In addition, Mercury is Ea’s astral self, which compares to the Mandaean assertion that Jesus’ astral self is Mercury.
2. 🧾 In my first comment, I linked to Ebla specialist Dr. Archi’s paper that shows how Akkadian Ea becomes pronounced Hayya in Ebla. Well, in 2025 this turns out to be the academic consensus supported by many Ebla scholars:
“Almost universal agreement has been found for the supposition that the name written E-A was pronounced Hayya in the third millennium, and ^Aya further on in the second millennium at least at Mari” – Weeden, Mark 2009
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3. 🧾 Big find. I found in Jstor, for Ebla, the full inscription of Hayya Rabbu, “The Great Living [God/One]” which virtually matches the Mandaean Hayyi Rabba, “The Great Life.”
Scholar Mark Weeden believes that both forms may exist in Neo-Assyrian manuscripts:
“Furthermore the writings on these Neo-Assyrian manuscripts may indicate that there were two forms of the name in the first millennium: Hayyu, Hayya.”
(Apparently, Chat tells me that there was a particularly Gnostic trend in upgrading a deity from possessing a quality to BEING the quality. This is how “The Great Living [God/One]” can become “The Great Life.”
The minor correction:
The deity Hayya was not the supreme deity in Ebla as I wrote, he was a deity of nobles in Ebla. Rabbu, meaning Lord/Great with that exalting Akkadian -u majestic plural suffix, may mark him as a supreme deity for Ebla’s nobles, as they swap out El theonyms for Ya theonyms upon Hayya’s adoption.
Enki’s En- means “Lord,” rare for Sumerian deities and designating him as the supreme deity of Eridu’s pantheon. His temple e-abzu was operational for ~5,000 years. Semetic-speaking peoples conquer Sumeria and begin calling Enki by the East Semetic epithet, Ea. Then Ebla (in what becomes Aramaea) joins in creating the Sumero-Eblaite polity, and Ea receives a West Semetic pronunciation as Hayya.
Next, I’ve tightened my claims:
1. My claim is that Genesis before Abraham leaves Mesopotamian Ur is derived from Mesopotamia’s 7 tablets of Eridu Genesis – Enki/Ea/Hayya’s story:
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His city is Eridu. He forms man from clay. He tells Ziusudra how to build the boat to escape the flood. Etc.
Eridu has extremely low rainfall, but was agriculturally abundant due to being spider-webbed by springs matching Genesis 2:56
“…for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.”
Enki’s city of Eridu is the ‘world’s first civilization center.’ It was abandoned once the water table was used up and the river port silted. Ea’s followers then become prolific in the new city, six miles away – Ur, yes, Abraham’s Ur of the Chaldees.
I relied on “The Cult and Clergy of Ea in Babylon” here:
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You might have already heard Ea’s theonym by the name of a certain copper seller subject to a baseless complaint in 1750 BCE Ur, Ea-Nasir? “Ea is his guardian/helper/watcher.”
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Mandaeans believe that Abraham was originally a priest of their god, Hayyi Rabba:
Dr. E.S. Drower again, recounting the Mandaean view:
“…Abraham left their community simply because leprosy appeared on his foreskin, and that everybody who suffered from this disease was considered impure and excluded from all society. Therefore, he cut off his foreskin, i.e. he circumcised himself. In this state he entered one of their idol-temples, when he heard a voice speaking to him, ‘O Abraham, you went away from us with one sin, and you return to us with two sins. Go away, and do not again come to us.’
Embarrassing and, I think unfair, but Abraham builds a lot of alters to not be a priest, so I give this story the benefit of the doubt. Also, like the Amorites and their oak groves, for Mesopotamians, the tamarisk tree venerated the primordial, pre-existent Enki-and-Ninki, a single deity meaning, “Lord Earth-and-Lady Earth.” Compare:
Genesis 21:33
“Abraham planted a tamarisk tree in Beersheba, and there he called on the name of the Lord, the Eternal God.”
I’ve suggested that Abram and Sarai’s names may be titles like Yithro, and not personal names. In addition to its folk etymology in Hebrew, a later language than the time of Abraham, for Mesopotamia Abram may mean something like ab2-RI-e”s “cultic steward,” with the West Semetic majestic plural suffix, -m.
2. I claim that the god that replaces Ea/Hayya is Yah/Iah – the Egyptian household god of the royal-priestly caste represented by the moon.
As I’ve commented before, in Egypt, the spelling variant Yah of the Egyptian deity Iah reaches its height of visibility there with the Canaan-origin Hyksos.
This is not the equivalent of Mesopotamia’s sun, stars and moon worship, or worshipping a panoply of Egyptian gods – instead, the vassal, like a Syrio-Palestine chief, is expected to worship the god-king.
** you do not have permission to see this link **
To recap, I support Dr. Phillip Bohstrom’s dating Abraham in Ur to 1750 BCE. For Abraham’s destinations south, artifacts have been found for the title “Ruler/Overseer of Retenu” (Syrio-Palestine), for the 14th dynasty in Avaris, Egypt —Amorites who converted to syncretic Egyptian worship. They claimed to be god-kings like the Egyptian pharaohs, and they ruled simultaneously with them during this 1750 BCE period.
A signet ring described by Dr. Burke:
“An individual was even interred with an amethyst scarab ring inscribed with an Egyptian name and the title ‘ruler/overseer of foreign lands’ or ‘ruler of Retenu…”
I relied on his “Amorites in the Eastern Nile Delta: The Identity of Asiatics at Avaris during the Early Middle Kingdom” here:
** you do not have permission to see this link **
1725 BCE
These Rulers or Governors of Syrio-Palestine ascended to kingship of Lower Egypt in either 1805 BCE or 1725 BCE, depending on the scholar. A 1725 BCE ascent to kingship matches my hypothesis that the Covenant is sealed ~25 years after 1750 BCE (Abraham in Ur), and is commemorated by the 400 Year Stele, which scholars date to 1730-1725 BCE. It’s within reason that they’d be seeking another Semetic-speaking dynasty to fill their former governing duties of Syrio-Palestine. I hypothesize that Abraham pledged the tribe of BR to serve theirs dynastically.
I hypothesize that this agreement results in Joseph’s governorship and Jacob’s ascension to lead a Great Nation c. 1700 BCE in the subsequent 15th dynasty, the Hyksos (or their same-named descendants). Hyksos is the Hellenization of Heqa Khasut meaning, “Ruler of Foreign Lands,” and Heqa Khasut was originally applied to Syrio-Palestine cheiftans like Abraham.
The opening and closing of Abraham’s family story matches the ONLY Iah throne-named rulers that exist:
• Aahotepre (“Iah offers peace to Ra”, r. 1760-1745 BCE. Nomen – ‘Ammu, meaning “Asiatic.”
Matches: Dr. Bohstrom’s 1750 BCE dating for Abraham in Ur
• Ahmose I (“Born of Iah” 1530-1525 BCE expelling of the Hyksos)
Matches: The Hyksos matches Abraham’s family phonetically and chronologically: Joseph the Shallit [Governor]/Salitis, Yakub/Yaqub, Benon/Benoni, Issachar/Soker-har.
3rd C BCE Egyptian historian Manetho, as quoted by Josephus in his Against Apion 1.73, connects Hyksos = Israelites:
That this nation, thus called Shepherds were also called Captives, in their sacred books.”
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I think Dr. Burke’s findings echo Manetho’s narrative:
“The skilled Asiatic slaves recorded in this document were likely captives from Middle Kingdom campaigns, which are seen to play a greater role in Egyptian and Levantine relations than previously considered.”
• Ahmose II (“born of Iah” r. 570-526 BCE)
Matches: ostensibly 539 BCE, where in Isaiah 45:1-25, God gives the responsibility of his chosen people to Messiah Cyrus the Great, who acquires the former Retenu/Syrio-Palestine region when he conquers the Babylonian empire. This event is also the chronological end of the Hebrew Bible.
Ahmose II is also the end of the lineage Egyptian empire, as his son was de-legitimized.
Now where would Moses fit? As I’ve written in my Platinum Post, I hypothesize that Moses may be the Overseer of Foreign Lands Thutmose (not the Pharaoh Thutmose). The priest-ruler cult of Iah/Yah becomes syncretized with Thoth, Osiris, and Khonsu by this time.
Compare Exodus 19:6
“…you shall be for me a priestly kingdom.”
Thutmose’s Overseer of Foreign Lands title echoes the Hyksos Ruler of Foreign Lands title, just that now it is absorbed into empire. This Overseer title only appears once, under Akhenaten (who has Asiatic ancestry via Yuya). In the chaos of Pharaoh Ay in the post-Amarna period, Avaris’ temple is destroyed in 1319 BCE and the temple community flees, joined by remnants of the previously destroyed city of Akhetaton. Avaris is then re-named, becoming the south of Piramesse per Dr. Manfred Bietak — and that is Exodus 1:11’s “city of Rameses.”
Dr. Bietak discusses the re-naming of the area here:
“...we invited the Pelizaeus-Museum, Hildesheim, to participate in our research and concentrate its investigations in the north, in the centre of Piramesse,
while our Institute is presently excavating primarily in the south, in the area of ancient Avaris”:
** you do not have permission to see this link **
The Septuagint generally Hellenized foreign place names, though some archaic terms were preserved where no Greek equivalent sufficed.
3. I claim that Jesus was consciously intending to act as the manifestation of Enki/Ea/Hayya Rabbu/Hayyi Rabba.
Mesopotamianization was high in the First Century.
• Example A: Feeding of the Multitudes in John 6:9
• 5 barley loaves = barley is Ea’s grain
• 2 fish = fish is Ea’s animal
• 5+2 = 7, the Sumerian magic number
7 Springs is the location that tradition says the feedings happened at = Ea is Lord of Springs.
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Ur has an original addition to the Ea myths: Ea feeds his human followers communally and joins them in human form in the feast:
I again relied on “The Cult And Clergy of Ea in Babylon” for this info: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Give her to eat barley cake
from the text of Enki and Ninhursaja: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Fish bones, carp, are found in great quantities around Ea/Enki temples.” (Wiki).
“In case of the original root *hyy, “to live,” a relation to the adjective `ayy(um) is
obvious, ”which is used in Hebrew, Syriac, and Arabic to describe spring fed or
running water.”
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• Example B: The rivers of flowing water from the heart in John 7:37-39
Compare:
“…Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”
“Enki, the Water-Lord then caused to flow the water of the heart.”
Taken again from the text of Enki and Ninhursaja: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Ea’s iconography shows two rivers coming out of his body, the Tigris and Euphrates:
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• Example C: Enki/Ea is also Lord of ¡éštu, meaning Knowledge, ie Gnosis.
¡éštu is a loanword into Akkadian, and in the original Sumerian, it literally means “hearing.”
Compare Matthew 11:15
“He who has ears, let them hear!”
Academic consensus is that Mandaeanism preserves Sumerian etymology and cosmology.
“On the other hand, ¡éštu also means the capability to use or master the received (heard) wisdom or directions, and therefore a suitable translation would be “(practical) skill,” “craft” or “cleverness.” An English translation which would fit all the abovementioned characteristics would be “knowledge.”
Also from “Ancient Near Eastern Gods Ea and Enki: A Diachronical Analysis”
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Cleverness is the trait that Enki is famous for – like when Enki is told by other gods not to warn his Noah – Ziusudra – about the flood. Instead he warns Ziusudra’s reed wall, that of course, Ziusudra is listening behind. Hahaha.
• Example D: Lord of Love
Just as Ea’s name The Living [God/One] can be read as House of Water, the Sumerian name Enki can be read as Lord of Earth (exalted to Anuship, he becomes Lord of Heaven and Earth), and also as Enki[g], the Lord of Benevolence/Good-Making/Love.
Compare John 13:34
“A new commandment I give you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.”
• Example E: The Book of Life in Revelation
matches the Tablets of Destiny that Ea is the scribe of, and later possessor of.
• Example F: The Mandaean drabsha cross, shown here in their town of Nasiriya: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Mandaeans call themselves Nasoriyya or Nasoraeans. As I’ve written before, 4th C Epiphanius in his Panarion reported of Nasoraeans and Oessenes, in the Transjordan, including Nabataea. He reported that in Petra, the cross and virgin birth (like the Mandaean drabsha cross and virgin birth) was celebrated on January 6th which was Jesus‘ Epiphany, but that it honored Dushara. Yet Dushara has no run-in with a Pontius Pilate who mysteriously publicly washes himself of sin. There are no Roman texts that depict a legislator washing himself of sin in public after listening to a woman’s dream. That’s not Roman at all.
(And as I’ve commented before, Dushara was worshipped in a triad with a new half-man, half-god deity – Theandrios.)
5. I claim that NO parable of Jesus reflects First Century Galilean peasant life (with the generic exception of the Parable of the Net) and that ALL parables of Jesus instead reflect First Century Nabataean nobility life: camel, pearl, spice, sand vs rock foundation choices, wineskins, financial stewards, a nomadic king, a signet ring, vineyard rentiers, and a traveling bridegroom with a fleet of servants. Even the Parable of the Sower – imo, the “good soil” is the Haran that the Jewish Mandaeans escape to, and imo The Sower is Aretas, which means “Plowman.”
Mixed crowds in Galilee – the Ituraeans would know what Jesus was talking about.
So, the Parable of the Brambles in Judges 9:8-15 is acknowledged to be about King Abimelech.
And in Matthew 2:45
When the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they knew that Jesus was speaking about them.”
They knew they were being subtweeted. So why isn’t the Galilee-Nabataea war that Joeephus linked to John the Baptist in AJ 18.5 looked at for any allegorical influence in the Gospels by textual scholars?
AJ 18.5: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
6. The Nabataean god of the royals is Dushara/Dhu Shara, who has an inscription as “Lord of Ruler.’ I claim that the name itself, “Du SR” can read [God] of Ruler,” and possibly a sacred pun as [God] of Heaven as well, and not just the mountains who may be named after a ruler. The name [God] is avoided, just like Ea and Hayya, “The Living [God/One].”
I hypothesize that Dushara is another epithet of Hayya/Ea/Enki. My basis:
• Nabataeans originate from Mesopotamia, per Dr. David Graf.
•The House of Heaven, e-sharra, becomes Enki’s late temple name, absorbed from Enlil when they formed a triad with Anu.
• Aretas dedicates a well/cistern to Dushara – freshwater is Ea/Hayya’s domain.
• Dushara’s extra-curly beard is also a feature of Ea’s beard imitating flowing water:
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• Petra’s pool-and-garden complex (imo matches Hayya’s pool-and-garden artwork in Ebla)
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• Nabataean Edessa sat at the mouth of the Tigris + Euphrates – the two rivers depicted flowing out from Ea’s body.
• Also per “The Cult and Clergy of Ea in Babylon”, the surge of Ea (not Hayya) theonyms under ‘spiritual’ Nabonidus’ reign – and then the sudden stop of Ea theonyms when he is conquered – may have created a need for a more discrete theocracy under the long-lasting ‘secular’ Achaeamenid rule. Nabataean throne names are unusually generic for the Ancient Near East:
• King Servant (Obodas)
• King Plowman (Aretas)
• King King (Malichus)
• King Lord-God Savior (Rabbel Soter, I know)
A Plowman like in The Parable of the Sower that analogizes the good seed to “listening humans”.
The Sumerians invented the plow, this is a close recreation: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
7. Maybe we’ve buried the lede; in texts like Enki and Ninhursaj, Enki’s little Enki plows, fertilizes, and seeds:
“In one evocative passage in a Sumerian hymn, Enki stands at the empty riverbeds and fills them with his ‘water'”
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Compare Dr. E.S. Drower recounting Mandaean beliefs:
“The Jews had no priests [of Hayyi Rabba, the Great Life], so Anush ‘Uthra [Excellent Manifestation] put seed into the Jordan and the Jewish women drank and became pregnant and brought forth 365 priests. ‘Inoshvey [Elizabeth], too, drank of the water, and she brought forth Yahia [John the Baptist], and all the men who were born of the seed sown in the Jordan were baptized and became priests.”
The title “Kingdom of God,” which does not appear in the Hebrew Bible, might also even offer a sacred pun on Hellenized -aea placename suffixes:
[tribe] + [vowel] “of” in Sumerian vowel-reduced forms + [Ea/Hayya] =
Nabat-a-ea
Nasor-i-ya
And remember how Hayya uses a Ya theonym?
Jesus/Iesous – “Ya Saves”
John/Ioannes – “Ya’s Emissary”
Oannes is the emissary of Ea who teaches mankind wisdom — gnosis:
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Who do I think gave the more accurate transmission of the faith? In one word, Enki’s ‘mes’ of civilization symbolized innovation, while John the Baptist’s group preserved the original form of the world’s most ancient civilization dedicated to innovation. I’m Team J.
To sum up, there are places in the New Testament where the quoted scripture is not found by academic scholars to be in the Hebrew Bible. Is it possible that they are referring to an even more ancient scripture?
“he just won’t say the OUR word to the public”
How about in private?
I’m thinking of the ‘Lord’s Prayer.’
There’s also
John 20:17 (NABRE)
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Jesus said to her,
“Stop holding on to me,
for I have not yet ascended to the Father.
But go to my brothers and tell them,
‘I am going
to my Father and your Father,
to my God and your God.’”
“The title ‘Kingdom of God,’ which does not appear in the Hebrew Bible”
Is there “in the Hebrew Bible” reference to a Kingdom of the Messiah/Anointed?
Ben Sira 46:13 (NABRE)
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Beloved of his people,
dear to his Maker,
pledged in a vow from his mother’s womb,
As one consecrated to the Lord in the prophetic office, was Samuel,
the judge who offered sacrifice.
At God’s word he established the kingdom
and anointed princes to rule the people.
“Exodus 1:11’s ‘city of Rameses.'”
Top Ten Discoveries Related to Moses and the Exodus – 29 July 2022
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6. Discoveries at Avaris
According to the biblical text, the Israelites settled “in the land of Rameses” (Gn 47:11) sometime in the 19th century BC.
While they were initially free, at some point they became slaves to the native Egyptians and were pressed into building the city of Rameses (Ex 1:11).
When they left Egypt in 1446 BC, some 430 years later, they departed from Rameses (Ex 12:37).23
The use of the word “Rameses” is an update of the biblical text by later editors to replace an archaic place-name with one that was more recognizable, as in Genesis 47:11:
“Then Joseph settled his father and his brothers and gave them a possession in the land of Egypt, in the best of the land, in the land of Rameses, as Pharaoh had commanded.”
Thanks to five decades of excavations by the Austrian Archaeological Institute of Cairo at Tell el-Dab‘a in the eastern Nile Delta, we now know that this was the site of the city Rameses, which was itself built over a previous city named Avaris.
While the site is most famous as the Hyksos capital,24 it was originally settled in the 19th century (the time of Joseph) by a group of non-Egyptians from Canaan, as evidenced by the Canaanite pottery and weapons they used.25
There is even evidence of a four-roomed house in the village (the same layout as houses typical in Israelite settlements in the later Iron Age), as well as a prominent tomb in which the remains of a statue of a Semitic man with a multicolored robe was found.
The town grew and became more Egyptianized, with a mansion built atop the four-roomed house, which some believe to be the residence of Ephraim and Manasseh, Joseph’s sons.26
A palace precinct was later built at Avaris during the Hyksos period, and then expanded during the 18th Dynasty, forming a new royal citadel.27
This later palatial complex dates to the time of Moses and is likely where he spent time when he was raised in Pharaoh’s courts.
Interestingly, the excavators at Tell el-Dab’a noted that the site was suddenly and mysteriously abandoned after the reign of Amenhotep II, suggesting that a plague may have been the reason.28
Bryant Wood summarizes the occupational history of the site:
“The excavations at Tell el-Dab’a have revealed the presence of an ‘Asiatic’ community who first settled as pastoralists, then grew in number as well-to-do entrepreneurs, became subservient to the Egyptians and finally left.
This scenario exactly matches what we read in the Bible.”29
These are all great questions, David. Let’s go in chrono order:
Q1. Yes, much of Avaris is destroyed by Amenhotep II, but not all — the temple precinct in Avaris was populated continuously, and the town itself began repopulating from Amenhotep III to
the end of the Amarna period. Dr. Irene Forstner-Muller:
** you do not have permission to see this link **
“After the conquest of Avaris by Ahmose the town was first abandoned, except for the precinct of the temple of Seth where an unbroken activity till the Amarna Period can be observed. This temple seems never to have been abandoned.”
Aaron (Hebrew ʾAhărōn) is a priest. That name can be constructed just like Aahotepre and Ahmose I & II: Ah-ir-en, “Created By/Appointed by Iah.”
It is only with Moses’ introduction that we get Iah/Yah, and perhaps Ah theonyms. There’s Yahoshua meaning “Yah Saves” with the West Semetic ‘Y’ accent, and 1 Chronicles 4:18 ‘s Bithiah, meaning “daughter of Iah”, who is the daughter of Pharaoh. Iah theonyms with the ‘I’ are women. I’ve found bunches, like Queen Iah:
** you do not have permission to see this link **
(Chat says that Dr. Geraldine Pinch explores how Iah theonyms represent the matrilineal power of Theben royal cults, but that’s a lot of new reading right now.)
You’re right that much of the town, including the main palace, I mean, “huge palatial compound” is destroyed under Amenhotep II:
“Of particular interest is building L beside the main palace G which lasted until the reign of Amenhotep II and gives the impression of high- level administration at this place.”
But then –
“After a period of abandonment the area was reoccupied late in the reign of Amenhotep III. In the district of the temple of Seth a scarab of this king may offer proof of continuity.”
Amenhotep III, is of course, Akhenaten’s daddy. He’s also the first of the Pharaohs that my candidate for Moses – Thutmose the Overseer of Foreign Lands – serves under, before serving Amenhotep III’s son, the heretic Akhenaten (formerly named Amenhotep IV). This matches Manetho’s assertion that Moses rebelled against his king’s traditions first.
So, this is a polytheistic society. Seth is the city god, the “Lord of Avaris” (and Lord of Foreign Lands for this period) and Iah/Yah/Aah is the god tied to the priestly-ruler caste. There are titulary deities for your family lineage, your city, your profession, and your nation. For example, Akhenaten’s household god — that he tried to make Egypt’s national god — was Ra-Horarkhty.
Ra-Horarkhty is the standard two-gods-fused-into-one representing two kingdoms fused into one:
• Amun-Ra (Amenhotep III’s national god represents each of Egypt’s Two Lands)
• Zeus-Ammon (Alexander the Great’s Greece + Egypt)
• Ptahil (Ptah-El per Dr. McGrath, the Mandaean worldly god. Egypt + Ugarit, or perhaps all of Syrio-Palestine?)
• Seth Baal (Lower Egypt + Retenu, though he is only syncretized with accoutrements and not name as Egyptians are not fond of foreign folk)
• Chemosh-Ashtar (Moab + Aramaean-Arabian kingdoms?) Ashtar first appears in Ebla as male Ishtar, and she is originally Mesopotamian. Ashtar replaces El, a supreme deity, in theonyms in Arabia. Chemosh-Ashtar as well as just Chemosh alone is invoked on the Mesha Stela. Scholars make the case that Chemosh as Kamosh traces back to Ebla, too.
I’d suggest that the 9th C CE Century Kingdom of Israel + Kingdom of Judah uniting in their desert campaigns may be represented by Yah + Ha. YaHW as a majestic plural with the Egyptian plural suffix -w (Akkadian -u) + Ha, the Lord of Foreign Lands that replaced the disgraced Seth as Lord of Foreign Lands.
This is a contrast – Yah is not two gods fused into one. Hayya is not two gods fused into one. They are One. They just have West Semetic accents – Iah becomes Yah, Ea becomes Hayya.
Q2. I was just learning on the fly when I originated this post. Like you noticed, whether Jesus says OUR or YOUR depends on who he is talking to. I think Robert corrected me on one of these.
So far, I think that it’s OUR god for Jesus‘ disciples and the House of Israel. I think the Kingdom of Judah and the Pharisees get to keep Yahweh.
Remember, a grousing of the Mandaeans is that Jesus ‘twists his words’. But really, imo he’s being legalistically specific while keeping the temperature cool.
Mark 12:29
“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.”
I think Jesus repeating Moses in Deuteronomy 6:4 is a way of proclaiming the ‘Reverse Exodus’ planned by the Qumran Essenes in their sectarian documents. I read this as that the House of Israel is bequeathed, or restored to, the The Living [One/God], Hayya.
Like Akhenaten bequeathing his household god to the entire nation. Or Moses bequeathing Yah — in my hypothesis, the temple district exodees would no longer be worshipping Seth Baal (two gods) and because there are mixed multitudes, the exodees from the previously-destroyed city of Akhetaton, which in excavations is now called El Amarna and is my guess for Sukkot, would no longer be worshipping Ra-Horarkty (two gods).
For my hypothesis of Israelite settlement as cheiftan vassals for the Great and Good God Ramses II (Mr. 400 Years Stele), his 1279 BCE ascent is 40 years after the end of the full Amarna period in 1319 BCE. The 13th Century BCE is when the Yah inscriptions, and not the Yahweh full-four-letter inscriptions, pop up in the proto-Israelite highlands.
Like Moses, Jesus could be showing that he knows who is a syncretic deity. For the West, the ability to read ancient logograms – cuneiform and heiroglyphics just became a reality after like 2,000 years. That’s where all the law and history is at.
We’ll make this Q3:
Your quote from the Association for Biblical Research:
“According to the biblical text, the Israelites settled “in the land of Rameses” (Gn 47:11) sometime in the 19th century BC.
While they were initially free, at some point they became slaves to the native Egyptians and were pressed into building the city of Rameses (Ex 1:11).
When they left Egypt in 1446 BC, some 430 years later, they departed from Rameses (Ex 12:37).”
Nawh. This 1446 BC date is derived from 1 Kings 6:1, and the Book of Kings is a book that even Orthodox Jewish schools don’t take literally:
In the four hundred and eightieth year after the Israelites came out of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon’s reign over Israel… he began to build the temple of the Lord.”
The Orthodox Jewish yeshiva Ohr Somayach’s ** you do not have permission to see this link ** dating for Abraham acquiring his new faith direction is 1760 BCE — and that is a close enough for Dr. Phillip Bohstrom’s dating of 1750 BCE for Abraham in Ur.
Ohr Somayach’s dating for the Exodus is 1312 BCE, which is also a close enough for my dating for the Exodus, ~1320-1319 BCE.
Wikipedia on the Book of Kings:
Biblical commentators believe the Books of Kings mixes legends, folktales, miracle stories and “fictional constructions”[1] in with the annals for the purpose of providing a theological explanation for the destruction of the Kingdom of Judah by Babylon in c. 586 BC and to provide a foundation for a return from Babylonian exile.
(Notably, the author(s) of the Book of Kings under the Babylonians and Persians would likely not have direct access to previous logogram, meaning cuneiform or heiroglyphic records of the hegemons, as the alphabet is what Jewish scribes were literate with. The destruction of Jerusalem in 586 BCE likely annihilated any archive of court scribal records. And there was a political investment in de-Egyptizing the narrative.)
I don’t know how the rabbis worked it out. I just worked out my dates based on Egyptian history. Honestly, the fine points in the destruction of the Asiatic temple community matches Ohr Somayach’s dating a little better — it could be during Tut under Ay, and not Ay properly, but Ohr Somayach also understand their dates as approximations.
Exodus 12:40
Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years
In Galatians, 3:17, the Apostle Paul counts the 430 years as starting from the promise to Abraham in Ur. 1750-1320 = 430
“What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.”
Much of this is in my comments in thread here, but where I have many more artifact links are in my Medium.
I just feel like I’m using common sense. Big grain gift means that you’re a vassal. Centers of civilization have more documentation than tribal chieftains. The Hebrew Bible doesn’t praise a poor-born man for a second for his gentleness and spiritual truths, so Jesus must be kicking down the food and the 100x land to get attention.
I have two minor corrections to make, so I thought I’d drop where I’m at with my hypothesis.
Correction 1: Aahotepre could be punned with the deity Iah/Aah/Yah, but in the Egyptian it doesn’t contain this name.
Correction 2: ‘Aharon אַהֲרֹן as ‘Ah-r-n fits ‘Mouth of Yah’, and not ‘Created/Appointed by Yah’. ** you do not have permission to see this link ** is the first leader of Egypt (and the first known name in the history of the world.)
Exodus 4:16
…he shall be your mouth, and you shall be as God to him.
Workup so far, with AI cross-checking how pre-Hebrew Semetic language roots and phonemes (including Akkadian, Eblaite and Canaanite) could be converted in the 1rst Millenium and 2nd Millenium BCE:
1. Aharon – Mouth of Yah
2. Moses – Born of Thoth-Yah, if Thutmose the Overseer. Re-theonymed something like One Who Saves (new deity ** you do not have permission to see this link **
3. Joshua – Yah Saves
4. Bithiah – Daughter of Yah/Daughter of Pharaoh (Sitiah)
5. Mered – Rebellion
6. Jethro – His Excellency. As Shu‘ayb – His Excellency of [deity representing the Eastern Desert] ** you do not have permission to see this link **
7. Miriam – Beloved of Amun
8. Amram – Exalted of Amun
9. Jochebed – Beloved of Jacob?
10. Phineas – The Nubian
11.El Šaddai – Lord of The Mountain-El, an epithet to avoid saying the personal name of known syncretic deity Baal Saphon-El
12. Zapenath Paaneah – He of Saphon-The Life (Baal-Hayya). Joseph – Ya Will Provide (Hayya). haShalit הַשַּׁלִּיט – The Governor, Vizier
13. Asenath – She of Neith
14. Potiphera – He Whom Ra has Given (priest of Ra at On/Heliopolis)
14. Ben-oni – Son of On
15. Issachar – Soker-Har?
16. Israel – El Rules. Jacob – Follower of Ya (Hayya)
17. Isaac – iššiak Governor Steward
18. Hagar – The Stranger
19. Sarai – Princess
20. Abram – Exalted Father, High Cultic Steward
As far as I understand it, name meanings in the Bible are considered ‘folk etymologies’ by scholars. Many of the names of people from foreign lands are given meanings using what seems to be Hebrew roots. Hebrew doesn’t develop as a language until around the First Millenium BCE and many of the really interesting (maybe even dramaticized a little?) events are placed in the Second Millenium BCE and earlier. Dramaticization can be in the good way, as a tool to keep people’s interest in important events that became more distant in time.
I’m just wondering that, as the Hebrew Bible coalesces into literary form beginning in the late-7th Century BCE and under the anti-deification Babylonian and Achaeamenid empires, if the Bible scribes didn’t have to be thoughtful in their phrasing of the history of, “how monotheism came to be.”
Iah
Spells from the Pyramid Texts of the Old Kingdom provide the earliest evidence of Iah (PT 412 Pyr. 732b; 481 Pyr. 1001b; 507 Pyr. 1104a;
García Fernández 2017, 222–223, fig. 1) –** you do not have permission to see this link **
In these utterances for Iah, the reciter makes “I Am” declarations. They portray themselves as Iah.
It is in the post-Amarna period that temple worship begins of Iah (Iah in the Egyptian. Yah as used by the Hyksos.The basic transliteration is I-to-Y in Egyptian-to-Semetic language transliterations, generally.)
As a commoner, Horemheb seems to acquire nobility through appropriating his father-in-law Thutmose III as his own father. Thut- is theophoric to Thoth which is another lunar deity like Iah/Aah/Yah, and Horemheb is the first to syncretize them as Thoth-Iah in a stela.
Horemheb is the deified pharaoh who returns the Egyptian empire from the Atenism experiment of Amenhotep IV/Akhenaten, and initiates the Ramesside dynasty by regnally adopting Ramses I.
Amenhotep III and Ramesses II at times presented themselves as moon gods in order to theologically substantiate their rule and to assume for themselves god-like status (Altmann-Wendling 2021: 236-237).
But Horemheb *also* presented himself in the power of a lunar god. Thoth is his personal deity even before he ascends to Pharaoh and syncretizes Thoth-Iah. And even as he restores the national worship of Amun.
His inscriptions tell how he is like Thoth. He depicts himself writing a psalm to Thoth. In it, he characterizes ** you do not have permission to see this link ** Interestingly, the Biblical Joseph is a vizier that marries the daughter of a priest of Ra.
It is Horemheb that initiates the rise in Thoth-Iah worship in Egypt.
It is Horemheb that initiates the campaigns in Syrio-Canaan that result in Egypt’s period of direct rule tied to Ramses II’s ascension in 1290 BCE.
And it is in the same 13th Century BCE that the first Yah inscriptions appear in Canaan.
(I’ve used the romanized/Anglicized Greek name Thoth here, which is the Egyptian-based romanization Djehuty, and I’m currently reading the top couple of paragraphs of this ** you do not have permission to see this link ** written by Egyptologist Dr. Tamara L. Suida to learn how to explain that.)
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