Interesting.
In Chapter 3, Apkallus and Fishers of Men
Chapter 4 Kingship Models and the Dying-Rising King
King of Kings, Lord of Lords
Istar-Inanna as Dying-Rising Goddess
Tammuz-Dumuzi, the Divine Shepherd-King, Fisher-King
Chapter 5 Ninurta, Nimrod, Abimelech and Christ: A Case Study of Mediated Influence
Ninurta’s Legacy and the Colossians Hymn
Chapter 6 Marduk, Istar and Nabu and New Testament Christology
The cult of Nabu compared with the NT presentation of Christ
Father and Son: Jesus and the Father, Nabu and Marduk
Wisdom Personified and Glorious Bridegroom: Jesus, Solomon, Nabu
Chapter 7 Bloodlines, Omens and Festivals
The Matthean Genealogy: Its Structure and Significance
Jesus’ Final Passover in light of the Babylonian Akitu Festival
- Recitation of the Creation Epic: On the fourth day, priests recited the Enuma elish, the Babylonian myth detailing how the god Marduk defeated the chaos goddess Tiamat, created the cosmos, and became king of the gods.
- Ritual Humiliation of the King: In a symbolic act of submission, the reigning monarch was brought before Marduk’s statue, stripped of his royal regalia, and forced to swear he had governed justly. The high priest would then slap the king and pull his ears until he cried, signaling that Marduk was satisfied with his devotion.
- The Procession: Statues of gods from neighboring cities were brought into Babylon for a massive divine assembly to determine the fate of the world. The festival culminated with the king leading a grand, joyous procession of Marduk’s statue to the dedicated Akitu temple outside the city walls, followed by great feasts and celebrations.
Chapter 8: Conclusions on the NT’s Mesopotamian Legacy
Index of Biblical References
The three magi could have been from Parthia. So this book expands the Parthian connection to Jesus.
Serene, if you start a thread on this book before I can get to it, I’ll visit that thread. Which chapters and sections interest you?
Hi Steefen! I was very lucky to pick up a physical copy of ** you do not have permission to see this link ** yesterday. (Thank you library.
It will be my first academic biblical book I’ll read cover-to-cover.)
Flipped through it a little and Holy Ship. Dr. Baker uses Mandaean texts to arrive at some of my exact same conclusions.
After I had the realization that Jesus was re-enacting the water ablution savior of humanity traditions, then Marduk made sense, but there was one more figure in the direct Mesopotamian line, and that is Nabu. And then durr, Nbu is a name that Mandaean (recap: John the Baptist’s followers) texts have for Jesus.
So I began looking up Nabu traits, and that day I found mention of this book online. Dr. Robin Baker is a colleague and collaborator with Dr. Simo Parpola, the prominent Assyriologist who wrote the Ezekiel to Jesus book.
So Dr. Baker explains why they call Jesus by the names of both Nabu and Mercury, because in the First Century Mesopotamian region, Nabu had been interpretio’d as Mercury. It looks like such an intelligent and deeply cited read.
Of great price, even.
As an early Sumerian myth indicates, the reed is the most potent symbol of authority of all since it materializes the indelible word. In fact, it proved by far the most common means of portraying the god. He is ‘Lord of the Stylus’, the stylus not only produced the (vertical) wedge, it resembled it, and symbolized the Father of the Gods (Anu) as well as Nabû.
Just as Jesus alone was qualified to read the scroll that was handed to him from the throne (Rev 5:4), ‘Nabû had access to secrets that others could not read.’ Both divine figures read out the determined destinies and keep the accounts of sin and righteousness.
– Dr. Robin Baker, ** you do not have permission to see this link **, Cambridge University Press, 2022
from Chapter 6, page 282, The Cult of Nabu Compared with NT Presentation of Christ
This is a big book. 452 pages. Academic citations. Dr. Baker goes into a lot more detail on many matching symbols, but why I chose that quote first, and what interests me the most of course, is that the Crucifixion has the reed. Imo, no Roman soldier is reaching for a weed in dry-ahh Jerusalem on a dry-ahh hill to match a scepter for the purposes of mockery and finding a reed. A 👏 reed 👏only👏grows 👏in 👏swamps 👏.
A non-local plant like a reed appearing in the Cruxifixion narrative would raise some questions, I hope?
Frequently, in Nabû’s symbolic iconography a tablet or writing board accompanies the wedge/stylus. In her disquisition on the cheirographon of Colossians 2:14, Oliva Blanchette asks, ‘Did [the writer of Colossians] apply the metaphor of the “celestial book” to Our Lord as St. John and other apocalyptic writers seem to have done?’ She considers the text to contain ‘two veiled allusions to the theme of the heavenly writing with Christ as their pivotal point.’ If she is right, then the image of a written document symbolizes Jesus as well as Nabû. In anthropomorphic form, the latter is depicted holding a tablet and a stylus, recalling the kind of imagery that Revelation applies to Jesus. Wilder described Jesus in terms that epitomize Nabû: ‘prophet, sage, and scribe.’ Thus, the parallels between the two divine figures, based on their roles as son, crown prince/king, recorder of sins and salvation, custodian of heavenly writings and judge of humankind, are multifarious.
Four other substantial parallels exist between Christ and Nabû, namely, subduer of the infernal sea, vizier of the divine sovereign and yet co-ruler with him of the universe, the personification and source of wisdom, and the divine bridegroom. To varying degrees, these four likewise have biblical antecedents but, set in the context of the other qualities the Babylonian deity shares with Jesus, the similitude of Jesus and Nabû cannot be dismissed.
Then Dr. Baker goes into the Mandaean weigh-in, which is surprisingly nuanced — some aspects of Nabu are disparaged and some praised. Particularly interesting to me is Nabu’s epithet in Mandaeanism as the “Lord of Love”! Remember how I had found another Assyriologist who claimed that the name Enki[g] could work out to the “Lord of Love/Benevolence” in my earlier comment in this thread?
As Nabu is Enki’s grandson, I think it could be an inheritable title.
I was very lucky to pick up a physical copy of ** you do not have permission to see this link ** yesterday.
Thanks for the suggestion. But since by the time of Jesus, Judaism had already thoroughly imbibed Ancient Near Eastern traditions, I’ll be interested to see what chain of transmission Dr Baker detects from the ANE to Christianity that bypassed Judaism. Also by Christianity does he mean the actual historical Jesus movement or does he mean that these ideas entered later on during Christianity’s development in later centuries? The latter would make more sense as the Jesus movement seems like it had its beginnings as a thoroughly Jewish sect.
Given my own area of interest however, Prof Baker’s other book, ** you do not have permission to see this link **, seems more up my alley.
At any rate, more books, hooray!
Stephen said:
But since by the time of Jesus, Judaism had already thoroughly imbibed Ancient Near Eastern traditions, I’ll be interested to see what chain of transmission Dr Baker detects from the ANE to Christianity that bypassed Judaism.
Glad that we are now at the point where we are acknowledging that Mesopotamian traditions had been thoroughly imdrankened by Judaism by the time of Jesus.
Stephen said:
I’ll be interested to see what chain of transmission Dr Baker detects from the ANE to Christianity that bypassed Judaism.
Drawing on a formidable range of primary sources, Baker’s conclusions challenge the widely held opinion that the theological imprint on the New Testament by Babylonia and Assyria was minimal, and what Mesopotamian legacy it contains was mediated by the Hebrew Bible and ancient Jewish sources. After evaluating and substantially supplementing previous research on this mediation, Baker demonstrates significant direct Mesopotamian influence on the presentation of Jesus and particularly the character of his kingship. He also identifies likely channels of transmission.
That’s part of the back-cover intro to ** you do not have permission to see this link **
As far as riddles, codes, and ciphers, Robin (I like to call him Robin) gets into that in this book, too. And the other Scandinavian Assyriologist, Dr. Parpola, goes ham with them.
I’ve read about 5 of the 452 pages, so I’ll let you know.
Short answer in bold of Dr. Baker’s likely channels of transmission for a ** you do not have permission to see this link ** independent of Jewish people in Babylonia and Syria (with my added thoughts):
• Uruk. The Antiquarian Revival of Seleucid Uruk, which continues through to Arsacid Uruk, that I’ve mentioned.
• Edessa. Capitol city of Osroene, the Nabataean Arab-lineage Abgarid kingdom which again, early Christian tradition had as the first to consider making Christianity the state religion; also the home of Gnostic Christianity.
• Palmyra. Very Interesting! Also Northern (Mesopotamianized) Arab rulership who raise a temple to Bel, meaning “Lord” for Marduk, Nabu’s father, in 32 CE, the year before the Harvard date for the Crucifixion, 4/3/33 CE.
I wonder if the rise of a new temple representing the supreme deity of the new regional power could influence someone being in the know that another temple was um, maybe going to get their Legos disassembled?
Again, there is a sharp shift of trade route from the Gaza port (Herodian Dynasty-controlled. The Hasmoneans took it from Nabataean hegemony, until the marital alliance of Hasmonean Mariamne and matrilineally Nabataean, patrilineally Edomite Herod the Great, whose father converted to Judaism, pacifies the identity groups for a moment) to Palmyra and its new northern route whose terminus is: Antioch. That’s the directly Roman-controlled port to the Mediterranean, and the rise of Antioch is the rise of Christianity. It’s the birthplace of the word Christian in Acts 11:26.
As I’ve mentioned before, in my working hypothesis, I believe it’s likely that the originally Egyptian deity Iah/Yah is a syncretism of Ea in the 28th day of the lunar deity Sin in the Babylonian hemerologies. What catches my attention with Nabu is that he is uniquely Ea + moon, too.
Again, the end of the Second Temple is simultaneously the end of the reign of the mysterious king who assists Rome in doing so in 70 CE, King Malichus II, who is my candidate for an ascended Jesus‘ regnal name. It’s interesting timing, considering that the First Temple was promised to remain standing until the end of the reign of King Zedekiah.
Malichus II’s Nabataean trade route also moves north, essentially leaving behind Petra for Bosra, which is on the other side of neutral Pella from Galilee, and best known from Epiphanius’ “Flight to Pella”. Edessa also had a Nabu temple, while Puteoli had a Dushara temple, where the Apostle Paul finds a pre-existing community of Jesus‘ followers with means.
Note: Dr. Baker never mentions Nabataeans by name, perhaps because they worship Dushara and not Nabu, his focus. (again, I believe Dushara likely references Asar, the more original name for Enki/Ea’s son than Nabu. Nabu is technically Enki/Ea’s grandson, but by the First Century, Nabu is simply called his son in some texts, when not called Marduk’s son. Marduk, again, had assimilated Asar as Asarluhi/Asalluhi.
And Dr. Baker is not making my claim that in order to unite the civilized world, Jesus may be syncretizing water ablution deities (so like Yah, Dionysus and Osiris syncretized into Serapis, Orpheus, Dushara, and the Enki/Ea-Asar/Asarluhi-Asalluhi/Marduk-Nabu/Bel line), he just explores Nabu as a deity template.
An Upright Cross
One of the logograms that commonly designates Nabu, (d) PA, an upright cross…
Because this representation depicts a syncretism of Nabu and Muati, there are two crossbars in this upright cross that remind me of how Simon of Cyrene is also in the crossbar narrative.
Let’s see, the cross, the reed, and the fish — this chapter in ** you do not have permission to see this link **includes a photo of a stele depicting Nabu with his reed and his fish symbols.
Nabu is unique for being originally a West Semitic deity first seen in Ebla, that is imported into Mesopotamian cosmology as Marduk’s son and Ea’s grandson by being syncretized with the Mesopotamian deity Muati. (So a little like how the Lahmu/lahmu, Ea’s occasionally divinized servant(s) who I’ve compared to John the Baptist, is/are considered to have a Semitic language-origin name.)
If you are having a West Semitic Antiquarian Revival, Nabu the son is who you’d weave back in.
Nabu doesn’t have a lot of studies like Marduk, so I was surprised to learn that Nabu had risen to such high status in the First Century, in West Semitic-language-speaking areas including Elephantine, Egypt (which hosted a Jewish temple until 70 CE), Syria, Palestine, Arabia, and Asia Minor, which are connected by the new trade route.
Being associated with a trade route group of cities makes sense as this is not a conqueror deity, and one of his skills within his scribal duties is accounting (compare the unusual accounting theme of forgiveness in the Bible scholars’ vote for most confusing parable, the Parable of the Shrewd Manager.)
I’ve already compared the Marduk Ordeal text line-by-line with the Crucifixion narrative in this thread, in which I depicted Nabu’s role in brackets as the [Son of God]. Dr. Baker offers his own translation of a line that isn’t yet included in the consensus translation that regards Nabu, to show its similitude to Jesus.
Next, Dr. Baker compares the text The Exaltation of Nabu with the Gospels:
In both the Exaltation of Nabu and the narratives in Matthew (8:23-32, 14:24-33) and Mark (4:35-5:16, 6:47-6:54) of Jesus’ calming the wind and sea and walking on the water, the same sequence of events obtains: the beloved son’s journey on a boat, his overwhelming of demons, and his walking on the roiling sea. The combination of confronting and overpowering demons and demonstrating power over the sea, including the ability to walk on it, is fundamental to Matthew and Mark’s affirmation of Jesus’ divinity. They show that these domains are conceptually linked. In the Mesopotamian material they play the same role, mutatis mutandis, in affirming Nabu’s divinity…
And Nabu just really has that knowledge, word, and fish association going on, that you might compare to the Gospel of John especially.
…as god of wisdom, knowledge, and the word, Nabu was conceived as closely connected with the “ocean of wisdom” and with fish.
Nabu’s epithets are not just the “lord of love” (compare John 13:34-35):
He possesses the epithets “god of the life-force”, “vivifier of the dead”, “bestower of life”, and “preserver of the breath of life.”
This researcher, Dr. Robin Baker, has four aces in his hand! He has all the rare Nabowledge. That’s why he’s not picking up the spare change of proving if or how other water ablution savior of humanity deities were syncretized.
Nabu’s sometimes syncretization with Muati, dependent on region, compares with the syncretization that scholars assume for Yahweh, or Moab’s Chemosh-Ashtar.
Geopolitically speaking 🧐🎩, it looks as if the civil instability against the Herodian Dynasty and Rome coincides with the middle layer of governance, between tribes and empire, swapping from a decreased scope for Judaeans to an increased scope for the Mesopotamianized Northwestern Arabians operating out of Petra, Palmyra and Edessa. The beginning of this new trade route cooperative coincides with the erection of the new Marduk temple in 32 CE. Then, the Great Jewish Revolt that begins in 66 CE coincides with the erection of the new Nabu temple in 67 CE. Then, the 70 CE decision to um, return the Second Temple to flat-pack and quell the civil unrest sees Rome being joined by Syria and Nabataea in security-keeping roles. This is the Nabataea of confederacy leader King Malichus II, whose reign, interestingly, coincides with his acceptance of Jewish refugees.
I call my novel hypothesis here Follow The Money.
Malchus
John 18:10
Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it, struck the high priest’s slave, and cut off his right ear. The slave’s name was Malchus.
I looked up Malchus’ name origin, and found an entry in the ** you do not have permission to see this link ** by James Hastings, 1906, via Sermonindex.net:
Malchus was a common Semitic name, though not certainly met with among the Jews proper. By both Delitzsch and Salkinson it is vocalized מָלְכו̇ם, which is no more than a transliteration. Josephus (see Niese’s index) mentions five persons who bore it under the form of Μάλχος or Μάλιχος, whence an original מָלִיךְ has been inferred (Dalman, Gram. Aram. Aramaic104). But the true Greek form seems to have been Μαλίχας (Periplus maris Erythrœi, cf. Müll. Geogr. Gr. Min. i. 272); and מלבו, pronounced מָלִבוּ, appears in three inscriptions (CIS [Note: IS Corpus Inscriptionum Semiticarum.] ii. 158, 174, 218) that may be dated with some confidence between b.c. 40 and a.d. 40. In these inscriptions the name is Nabataean…
That’s right — by the time of the First Century, whenever this name is found in Josephus’ books or in archaeological inscriptions, it’s Nabataean. I am putting my Something’s Fishy apkallu hat on! 🐟
• A bondservant or slave, if even as a courtly idiom, named King?
• named a known Nabataean name? This would be like finding a Kamehameha and trying to hold back a “Eh brah, howzit?”
• Nabataeans are the wealthiest of the already wealthy Arabians. To find a High Priest’s associate with an otherwise-typically Nabataean name that Nabataean Arabs reserved for nobility is just interesting.
So I’d like to introduce you to an ancient writing form that someone I love veeeery much introduced me to. Takhallus is originally an Arabic word that can mean “transition.”
It is here in John 18:10 that Jesus’ ‘ordinary’ life seems to transition. The very next line, John 18:11, begins the events that resemble investitures and formalities conferring kingship, mockingly or not, starting with him verbally accepting his father’s cup in the presence of the High Priest.
Changes could sometimes require a change in name, and as seen when Benoni is renamed Benjamin by his father, sometimes even a shift into another ethnic register. Jesus renaming his followers. Egyptian Necho II and Neo-Babylonian Nebuchadnezzar re-naming Jewish kings. And we know that the Herods were not called Herod when they were little baby Herods.
And, it is academic consensus that techniques of concealment like acrostics, gematria, and ciphers (like ** you do not have permission to see this link **the cipher substituting letters from opposite ends of the alphabet, and albam, that splits the alphabet), are already present in the Bible. Gematria is even overtly pointed out in Revelation 13:18.
Parables also follow a conceal and reveal motif.
When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they realized that he was speaking about them.
Assyriologist Dr. Simo Parpola claims that Jacob’s name is encoded in athbash, and Cyrus’ name is encoded in anagram, in his ** you do not have permission to see this link ** book. And embedding names cryptographically or structurally in ancient Greco-Roman writing was a well-established literary art form by 44 BCE, the year Cicero wrote De Divinatione (On Divination):
According to Cicero (De Div. 2.111f.) Ennius also included an acrostic signature in one of his works: quae ἄκροστιχίς dicitur, cum deinceps ex primis versuum litteris aliquid conectitur, ut in quibusdam Ennianis : ‘Q. Ennius fecit.’ (‘…in what are termed “acrostics,” wherein the initial letters of each verse taken in order convey a meaning; as, for example, in some of Ennius’s verses, ‘Q. Ennius wrote it.’)
—** you do not have permission to see this link **, Robinson, M., 2019, Cambridge Press
Later Christian writers embraced this heavily — most famously the Latin acrostic IXUS (Iesous Christos Theou Huios Soter / Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior) found in the Sibylline Oracles.
Yet the name Jesus has never been found to be homaged in the New Testament in an encoded way. Might other Semitic-rooted name-embedding techniques be worth exploring?
Numerous writers have spoken confidently of the extensive poetry which the New Testament contains.
— Floyd V. Filsun, ** you do not have permission to see this link **?, 1948, Journal of Biblical Literature
Takhallus poetry cleverly embeds a pen name into the last couplet, and often the final word. In classic Semitic and Sufi lyric traditions, poets were even known to embed not their own name, but sometimes even the name of a beloved friend. While its formal written codification dates to post-Islamic Arabia, its rhetorical mechanics likely existed in oral poetry much earlier.
If John 1:8-11 depicting Jesus writing was accurate, could the Gospel of John have drawn from Jesus’ own writings? And whether as author or beloved friend, as academic consensus considers the Gospel of John to be a composite of stitched-together texts produced by the Johannine community, could a text have been stitched in with a name embedded at a transition?
King Malichus II
has a few unusual attributes that researchers have not yet sorted. There’s no commemorative coin for him as a child like other Nabataean heirs, for example. I’m not saying I’m certain that Jesus ascended to actual great kingship, even as Malichus II. I’m just saying that I’d take that bet.
Mark 4:22
For there is nothing hidden, except to be disclosed; nor is anything secret, except to come to light
all copyright someone whose pen name is the last word in a Grammy-nominated album special edition
Phillipians 2:7
When the time came, he set aside the privileges of deity and took on the status of a slave
Hey, I’ve read of a slave named Malchus in John 18:10.
The Gospel of John and the Qaṣīda: a case for literary syncretism
The Qasida has its origins as a Pre-Islamic Arabian poetry form most often used to praise kings. We have very few texts from Pre-Islamic Arabian kingdoms; I in my own opinion would ascribe that to them being a Never Conquered, Just Acquired, as in, they aren’t having to leave behind their important texts in the dirt for some dirtmonger to find.
The Qasida’s transition is called the takhallus just like in the Persian and Urdu poetry forms, and here the takhallus transition turns out be considered the pivot to part 2, where its hero begins the ordeal.
Part 1: Nasīb
A prologue that looks at The Past; an elegy over a former life in an abandoned place.
Idk, I think “In the Beginning was the Word…” works here, and so does the subject of Jesus and the place of Jerusalem, considering that
• the Gospel of John likes to call Jesus a King.
• academic consensus believes it to be written after 70 AD, a time when Jerusalem has been directed to be abandoned and stuff.
The Transition: Takhallus
The disengagement or transition where the hero breaks free from nostalgia and embraces his destiny.
I’m telling you, using a proper name then drinking from his father’s cup (considered to be an acceptance of destiny in ancient traditions from Akkadian to the Hebrew Bible) seems to be hitting all the Takhallus marks.
In the poetry short form, here is basically where you cleverly place the name of the author or subject, sometimes as the last word.
John 18:10:2
The slave’s name was Malchus.
Even if my original hypothesis — meaning that no one I’m aware of has this hypothesis but me — that the Gospel of John syncretizes a Transjordan literary form of the Qasida is correct, it could just be a way of homaging Jesus as King, Messiach, or Christos/Anointed because ‘malchus’ works out to ‘king’. It doesn’t have to be cleverly referencing the Malichus king that ascends in 40 CE. But, it does take a while to go from the ceremony to actual placement, sometimes you have to wait for a change in Roman administration.
Part 2: Raḥīl
The Grueling Journey Interspersed by Discourses
In the Gospel of John, the journey in this hypothesis would be directional, like the ‘ascent’. And there’s a lot of discourses that are more than conversation in the Gospel of John.
Part 3: Gharaḍ
The Epilogue that contains a fakhr, the BOAST.
John 21:25
Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
So, when you see three languages used in the inscription placed over Jesus by Pilate, scholars acknowledge that that communicates to the three layers of culture in the area:
• Hebrew/Aramaic for the Jewish people
• Koine Greek as the lingua franca, and especially of travelers. Koine Greek is presumed to be used by the Transjordan Arabians for communicating internationally in the First Century, and their material culture was heavily Hellenized. (Think Aretas Philhellene, “lover of the Greeks.” The name Aretas of the New Testament Aretas (IV) is a Hellenization of his name, Haritath. And per Josephus, before he ascended, he had the Greek name of Aeneas.
• Latin for the Roman people
If you decided to braid in the literary forms of the First Century Transjordan, the Gospel of John looks like what you’d get, to me.
Next at some point, Identity Doubling Across the Gospels — Are They Tryna Tell You Something?
all copyright someone who is just getting started elmo in front of fire jpeg
(Philippians is not one of the 7 authentic letters of Paul.)
The Attitude of Christ
Each of you should look not only to your own interests but also to the interests of others.
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus
Who, existing in the form of God
[What? If you’re the Son of God, you’re a god also?]
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped/something to be used to his own advantage;
NET Bible
but emptied himself by taking on the form of a slave
NRSV
but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave
Steefen:
Slave of the Elohim? Slave of Yahweh? Slave of his perception, the Father?
Yahweh was likely a member of the Elohim. Anyone wants to explain otherwise?
Steefen said
(Philippians is not one of the 7 authentic letters of Paul.)
** you do not have permission to see this link **
BASIC SUMMARY OF PHILLIPIANS
Scholars agree that Philippians was absolutely ** you do not have permission to see this link **
This is an older book, written in 1967, but now considered a classic in the field.
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Not the be-all and end-all but the perfect place to start.
Addendum: Just noticed that there’s a new edition of this book published in 1997 retitled A Hymn of Christ. Might be easier to find.
This leads to an important set of key verses in Philippians 2:5-11, often called the Philippian hymn since it appears to be an already-established hymn that Paul is just quoting in his letter:
5 Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus,
6 who, though he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped,
7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave…
So, academic consensus is that the Philippians epistle is authentic, and that 2:5-11 appears to be an already-established hymn that Paul is quoting in it. A hymn created by an already-established group of Jesus’ followers before Paul enters the picture, similar to the already-established community of Jesus’ followers in Puteoli (where the Nabataean temple was found.)
You helpfully surfacing that this hymn was not written by Paul, but is quoted by him, for me adds plausability to the idea that it was important and meaningful to some group that a doulos rise to king.
In ancient Jewish law afaik, a doule (female bondservant or slave) gives birth to a doulos, regardless of the child’s father being free. While in ancient Islamic law which has pre-Islamic Arabian influence afaik, a child of an umm al-walad and a free father is born free.
Luke 1:38
|
| ἡ the |
| ** you do not have permission to see this link ** δούλη handmaid |
| Κυρίου ; of [the] Lord |
Who knows if this is just poetic or not (it isn’t just poetic in the 38 places the word ‘doule’ occurs in the Septuagint) but this trajectory wasn’t important to the Jewish people of the First Century.
• It’s not in the prophesies for the Messiach
• It’s not appealing to them that a slave or servant rise to king — the Talmud is pejorative about Herod the Great and his family rising from whispered slave or servant roots.
But it was appealing to the Ishmaelites. You know Ishmael, the father of 12 young princes and 1 young princess named in Genesis.
ΙΧΘΥΣ
The Jesus fish, or vesica pisces symbol that Jesus‘ followers used to represent him may depict, among other things, commonality, as it’s literally a Venn Diagram intersection. In my original *hypothesis, this would not just be cosmically of heaven and earth, but of divinized king (Ishmaelite Nabataean ** you do not have permission to see this link **) and earthly king (Jewish King David) heritage. Abrahamic heritage. Isn’t this the plot of the Book of Isaiah?
Isaiah 60:7
7 All Kedar’s flocks will be gathered to you,
the rams of Nebaioth will serve you;
they will be accepted as offerings on my altar,
and I will adorn my glorious temple.
This is simply the Book of Isaiah, “someone from the stump of Jesse will be tributed to, as a tribal confederacy Great King, by these Ishmaelite tribes.” How did anyone think this was going to go down? Win over the wealthiest tribes in the world with an exceptional olive oil? That’s how I would start.
(*I tried channeling again, lol. Felt better but didn’t get any ideas, then had a dream that the Jesus fish was a Venn diagram-type intersection representing the commonality of Jewish people —or Israelites idk — and Ishmaelites.) There’s obviously stacked meanings, and obviously I think it builds on the fish symbols of the Mesopotamian Enki/Ea, Marduk-Asarlluhi, and Nabu line of Father and Son deities, with some meanings more philosophical to reflect that, like “Life,” Hayya.
I had never realized until after the dream that ** you do not have permission to see this link ** believed that Ishmaelites only = Nabataeans.
Not other Arab nations in his estimation, just Nabataea:
Of this wife were born to Ishmael twelve sons: Nabaioth, Kedar, Abdeel, Mabsam, Idumas, Masmaos, Massaos, Chodad, Theman, Jetur, Naphesus, Kadmas. These inhabited all the country from Euphrates, to the Red Sea: and called it Nabatene. They are an Arabian nation, and name their tribes from these: both because of their own virtue, and because of the dignity of Abraham their father.
Steefen:
I checked again this morning, Philippians is one of the seven letters of Paul (Pharisee and son of a Pharisee Philippians 3:5 and Acts 23:6) who
1) Didn’t help with feeding the multitudes on the mount and on the plain.
2) Didn’t hear the sermon on the mount/plain where Jesus delivered extensive ethical and spiritual teaching and the Our Father Prayer–what does Paul teach about the Father?
3) Didn’t see Jesus walk on water
4) Didn’t see Jesus raise the widow’s son at Nain, Jarius’s daughter in Galilee, or Lazarus at Bethany
5) Didn’t see Jesus curse the fig tree
6) Didn’t see the Transfiguration
7) Didn’t attend the Last Supper
8) Didn’t see Jesus’ arrest
9) Didn’t see Jesus carry his cross and get crucified
10) Didn’t cry with Mary over the death of her son, Jesus
11) Wasn’t present at Pentecost
12) Did not see Thomas doubt the resurrection of Jesus.
WAIT ! “The Incredulity of Thomas” is only in the Gospel of John!
Neither the Gospel of Thomas nor the Synoptics contain Thomas’ skepticism regarding the resurrection. Those are attestations that are needed.
| Gospel | Mentions Thomas’s Doubt? | What Happens Instead |
|---|---|---|
| John 20:24–29 | Yes | Jesus appears specifically to Thomas eight days after the resurrection, inviting him to touch his hands and side. |
| Luke 24:36–43 | No | Jesus appears to the whole group of disciples. He shows them his hands and feet and eats fish to prove he is not a ghost. |
| Matthew 28 | No | Mention is made that “some doubted” on a mountain in Galilee, but no individual disciples are named or singled out. |
| Mark 16 | No | The longer ending notes that the disciples did not believe the first witnesses, but it contains no specific interaction with Thomas. |
- Romans: A deep theological letter outlining salvation and justification by faith.
- 1 Corinthians: Addresses community division, morality, and practical church life.
- 2 Corinthians: A personal and defensive letter regarding Paul’s apostolic ministry.
- Galatians: A passionate defense of freedom in Christ against legalism.
- Philippians: A joyful note written from prison emphasizing unity and perseverance.
- 1 Thessalonians: Paul’s earliest surviving letter, encouraging a young persecuted church.
- Philemon: A short, personal appeal to a slave owner regarding an escaped slave. [** you do not have permission to see this link **]
Bart,
Neither the Gospel of Thomas nor the Synoptics contain Thomas’ skepticism regarding the resurrection. Those are attestations that are needed.
QUESTION: Without multiple attestation, is Thomas’ skepticism not historical or is there more to this?
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Maybe this will help on Thomas Didymos:
Identity Doubling Across the Gospels — Are They Tryna Tell You Something?
Gospel of Mark: Naked Young Man
Gospel of Matthew: Jesus Barabbas
Gospel of Luke: Simon of Cyrene
Gospel of John: Thomas Didymos
Everyone is billed like a character role in a film, except for Simon of Cyrene: “Naked Guy”, “Jesus 2,” “The Twin.”
Gospel of Mark
A Young Man escapes Roman charges in a shroudy linen wrap and his birthday suit and then appears at the Tomb transfigured in white.
Gospel of Matthew
Jesus Barabbas (possibly a play on the name Carabbas, as well as Son of the Father) escapes Roman charges, too. Isn’t ironic that the man that the Jewish people choose in this story will not gain the King Of The Jews title?
(I think this story is subtweeting Agrippa)
Gospel of Luke
Simon of Cyrene has the normal name of the identity doubles, “First Name, Town.”
But it unusual for a man to travel from cosmpolitan Cyrene just to be in the fields? In the Sar Puhi substitute king ritual, the Farmer/Gardener is the identity that the king swaps with the substitute. Someone who is an unknown won’t have people calling out “Hey Brayden you’re not Jesus!”
It’s surprising that a lot of the Crucifixion narrative takes place in a private courtyard or far from everyday people.
Gospel of John
Thomas Didymos, meaning Twin (Hebrew), Twin (koine Greek), who we hadn’t heard of before, aren’t given an introduction to, and isn’t in the group scene prior. Given the known squeamishness of the awesome Jewish people for touching zombies or whatever, he doesn’t seem to match the reaction of the other followers that Jesus also appears to, which is “Um, who are you?”
Well, the Sar Puhi substitute doesn’t need to be a lookalike.
Bonus double identity — the Gardener that Mary doesn’t recognise that is Jesus in John 20:15. And the grammar is weird around these identity doubles, ambiguous about whether it is they or Jesus being spoken about.
So I think I am responding to a Mythicist comment, ie taking a position that Jesus is not a historical person? Yeah idk.
I believe Jesus is likely a historical figure, for some of the reasons I’ve explained. I just haven’t discovered where poor men had positive literature written about them in the ancient world, so I tend to think that Jesus delivered on the banqueting and the land, imo in places like Auranitis.
What men get a lot of literature written about them in the ancient world? Kings. There’s historical examples of a son of a handmaiden rising to tribal confederacy king, the later Abassid Caliphate preferentially raise the sons of their handmaidens to these kings; the son is born free, the mother is highly valued and sometimes freed at the son’s birth afaik, and their praise literature goes ham pun intended.
Where I call in ** you do not have permission to see this link ** is the
• double investitures
• doubled characters in the gospel of Matthew
• doubled Twin name
• Simon of Cyrene, Jesus’ gym spotter, appearing at the moment that Jesus’ royal robe is removed, because the Sar Puhi substitute king is supposed to begin to swap identity at that time. Like!the Romans really had cross valets.
• and of course, the Son of God and Son of Man roles. Who talks about themselves twice for everything?
It all gives Goat Swap Leviticus 16.
Comment 159
- Thomas Didymus: “Thomas” comes from an Aramaic word meaning “twin,” and “Didymus” is the Greek word (Didymos) that also means “twin”. The Gospel of John refers to him as “Thomas, called the Twin (Didymus)”.
- Doubting Thomas: This is a later nickname given to him by people, not a name found in the Bible. [** you do not have permission to see this link **]
- The nickname comes from a story in the ** you do not have permission to see this link **.
- Thomas was not present when Jesus first appeared to the other disciples after the resurrection.
- He said he would not believe Jesus had risen unless he could physically touch the nail marks in Jesus’ hands and side.
- Eight days later, Jesus appeared to Thomas and invited him to touch his wounds, prompting Thomas to declare, “My Lord and my God!” [** you do not have permission to see this link **]
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