“not a common word at all. The only possibility is that it is a later Syriac word”
“Could it be slang?”
“Irrelevant. It would still be unattested… slang”
It’s not “irrelevant” to the allegation that “The only possibility is that it is a later Syriac word.”
“It would still be… anachronistic slang”
I don’t see how it would be “anachronistic.” I imagine it can take a while for a slang term to become widespread.
“‘Rabouli’ is not attested in any contemporary dialects of Jesus”
Does “not attested” mean, ‘it has not yet been found in an ancient document or inscription other than in the Peshitta’?
If the Greek NT has a word that’s “not attested in any contemporary dialects of Jesus,” would that mean that the NT wasn’t originally written in Greek?
“Wasn’t your comparison to the King James Version meant to imply that”
No. I’m merely stating what appears to me to be the case.
** you do not have permission to see this link **
It’s only until around the turn of the third century we start seeing examples of /n-/ in the Imperfect regularly mixed in with /y-/, and by about the 4th century it had completely replaced /y-/ as the preferred prefix with not a single further documented example. By the dawn of the golden age of Classical Syriac literature (around the 5th century) /y-/ was absolutely nowhere to be found.
In other words the Peshitta, at the earliest, represents fourth century Syriac.
It cannot be from the first or second centuries AD as some proponents claim.
That sounds to me like saying that this cannot be from the 1600s:
‘And she shall bring forth a son, and you shall call his name Jesus:
for he shall save his people from their sins.’
1611 KJV, Mt 1:21
** you do not have permission to see this link **
And she shall bring forth a sonne, and thou shalt call his Name Iesus:
for hee shall saue his people from their sinnes.
“said opinion is contrary to scholars who are very well versed in Aramaic”
What if any “scholars who are very well versed in Aramaic” thought part of the NT was originally written in Aramaic? (‘none’?)
“I’m not sure such a concept existed”
The concept of ‘step-father’ exists in English today.
If I pointed to a step-father, and asked an ancient Hebrew speaker what word she’d use to describe him, what word would she use? (the same word she used for a biological father?)
If I pointed to a step-father, and asked an ancient Arabic speaker what word she’d use to describe him, what word would she use? (the same word she used for a biological father?)
“be better for you to become more familiar with Aramaic”
Agreed.
“the hypothetical time-machine argument”
It sounds like you don’t know if ancient Israelites and ancient Arabic speakers did or didn’t have a word for ‘step-father’ distinct from ‘father.’
“instance where ‘the motivations are fairly obvious’?”
“Mk 4,1 vs Mt 13,1. You’ll need to read Greek to understand this one. Do you know Greek?”
No.
“Mk 10,35-40 vs Mt 20,20-23. Matthew blames the request of James and John on their mother rather than allow these leaders in the movement appear to have made the arrogant request themselves”
Per Matthew, Jesus’ other students blamed not the mother for the audacious request, but rather James and John– see below.
Do you know the motivation(s) behind Luke leaving out any mention of the request and the other students’ indignation at the 2 brothers? (‘no motivations– Luke completely overlooked Mark’s account of the request’?)
Matthew 20 (NIV)
** you do not have permission to see this link **
20 Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him.
21 “What is it you want?” he asked.
She said, “Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom.”
22 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said to them. “Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?”
“We can,” they answered.
23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”
24 When the ten heard about this, they were indignant with the two brothers.
25 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.
26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,
27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave–
28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
“it’s just a forced reading on the text”
I don’t consider interpreting the g-b-r-a here as ‘fathers’ a “forced reading on the text”:
Matthew 7:9 (modified Younan)
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Or whom among you g-b-r-a,
that of him his son asks bread,
why would hold out to him a rock?
“those who do not want to admit that there might be contradictions or mistakes in their Bible”
The Greek NT calls the Syro-Phonecian woman a Greek, contradicting itself. Some people don’t like that contradiction in the Greek NT. Others are perfectly OK with their translated-into-Greek NT’s contradictions and mistranslations and added glosses.
“Matthew’s version tends to deflect the blame on the mother for the readers”
Readers are told that the other students blamed James and John.
“Jesus while responding to the mother, is also speaking directly James and John, without noting the change”
Readers can tell that James and John respond to Jesus’ question.
“motivation(s) behind Luke leaving out any mention of the request and the other students’ indignation at the 2 brothers?”
“Possibly he left this part out for the same reason that Matthew ameliorates the role of James and John”
So possibly Luke tried to present James and John in the best possible light?
Luke 9
** you do not have permission to see this link **
51 As the time approached for him to be taken up to heaven, Jesus resolutely set out for Jerusalem.
52 And he sent messengers on ahead, who went into a Samaritan village to get things ready for him;
53 but the people there did not welcome him, because he was heading for Jerusalem.
54 When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?”
55 But Jesus turned and rebuked them.
“Murdock translates this as ‘man’ here, as does Magiera”
In Mark 14:3 and Acts 8:27, both Murdock and Magiera mistranslated to get ‘leper’ and ‘eunuch.’
Better translations of the original Aramaic is ‘Simon the jar-maker/ potter’ and ‘Ethiopian believer.’
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Mar 14:3
(APNT)
And while he was in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper while reclining, a woman came who had near her an alabaster box of perfume of spikenard, the best, very costly, and she opened it and poured it on the head of Jesus.
(Murdock)
And when he was at Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, as he reclined, a woman came having an alabaster box of precious ointment of spikenard, of great price; and she opened and poured upon the head of Jesus.
Act 8:27
(APNT)
And he rose up [and] went. And he met a certain eunuch, who had come from Ethiopia, an official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians. And he was responsible for all of her treasure and had come to worship in Jerusalem.
(Murdock)
And he arose and went. And there met him a eunuch, who had come from Cush, an officer of Candace, queen of the Cushites, who had charge of all her treasure; and he had come to worship at Jerusalem.
“If the author wanted to specify ‘father’, he would use ܐܒܐ, which the Peshitta uses for the same statement in Lk 11,11”
That sounds to me like speculation. Re: Matthew 7:9 and Luke 11:11, is it your view that Matthew _didn’t_ want to specify ‘father,’ while Luke _did_?
“The Greek NT calls the Syro-Phonecian woman a Greek, contradicting itself”
“If it were a mistake, that would more likely be a sign of originality, as mistakes tend to get corrected by later scribes and translators”
Later scribes and translators often introduce errors, e.g. the mistranslations in the Greek NT.
“Matthew deflects the impetus of the request onto the mother, away from James and John. Do you really think, Mark would have embellished Matthew’s account to make the James and John look worse?”
I don’t accuse anybody there of embellishing.
“to make the James and John look worse”
Hiding behind one’s mother’s skirts to submit a request is worse than being manly about making one’s request directly.
“their question about ‘calling down fire from heaven to destroy them’ is actually not all that bad from Luke’s perspective”
It looks bad to me. Luke says Jesus rebuked them.
“It is similar to Jesus’ own cursing of Chorazin, Bethsaida, Capernaum, or any town that did not accept his who did not accept his disciples (Lk 10,10-15)”
I don’t think Jesus cursed those places.
“In the context of Mt 7,9, it can make more sense, but it is still rather unusual for ܓܒܪܐ to be translated as ‘father’. Do you know of anywhere else in the Peshitta that ܓܒܪܐ is translated as ‘father’?”
I don’t consider interpreting the g-b-r-a here as ‘father/s’ a “forced reading on the text”:
Matthew 7:9 (modified Younan)
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Or whom among you g-b-r-a,
that of him his son asks bread,
why would hold out to him a rock?
Matthew 17:14-15 (modified Younan)
And when they came towards the crowds, a
g-b-r-a approached him and bowed down on his knees, and said to him, “Mari [my lord], have mercy upon me, for my son– who has a demon of lunacy and is badly afflicted– many times he has fallen in the fire, and many times in water.
Matthew 21:28
But what do you think?:
A certain g-b-r-a had two sons.
And he drew near to the first one and said to him,
‘My son, go (and) work today in the vineyard.’
Matthew 22:2
“The Kingdom of Heaven is like a
g-b-r-a– a malka [king]–
who prepared a wedding-feast for his son.
Luke 8
41 And a certain g-b-r-a whose name was Yorash, a chief of the assembly, fell before the feet of Yeshua and was beseeching from him that he might enter his house,
42. for he had an only daughter about twelve years old, and she was about to die. ….
Luke 9:38
And a certain g-b-r-a from the crowd cried out and he said, “Malpana [teacher], I beseech you, take notice of me! He is my only son to me,
Luke 15
11. And Yeshua would say to them again,
“A certain g-b-r-a had two sons.
12. And his younger son said to him,
‘Abbi [my father], give to me the portion that is coming to me from your estate.’
And he divided to them his possessions.
John 4
49. That servant of the malka [king] said to him, “Mari [my lord], come down before the boy dies.”
50. Yeshua said to him, “Go. Your son is alive.”
And that g-b-r-a believed in the word that Yeshua spoke to him, and he departed.
Matthew 1
16. Yaqub fathered Yosip, the g-b-r-a of Maryam, from whom was born Yeshua, who is called the Meshikha.
17. Therefore, all the generations from Awraham until Dawid (were) fourteen generations,
and from Dawid until the captivity of Babel (were) fourteen generations,
and from the captivity of Babel until the Meshikha (were) fourteen generations.
“what you’re calling rhyming is based on rather inconsequential aspects of Semitic language suffixes”
“If you were to translate the prayer from Greek into Hebrew, how much rhyming could you come up with?”
“Exactly the same amount. It would be difficult to avoid. When you use the same suffixes repeatedly, they sound the same.”
I see rhyming in this Arabic version of the Lord’s Prayer in verse 12: r, a, r, a.
Where if anywhere else in the Arabic do you see rhyming?
Mt 6 (Ketab El Hayat (NAV))
** you do not have permission to see this link **
9b
أَبَانَا الَّذِي فِي السَّمَاوَ
اتِ، لِيَتَقَدَّسِ اسْمُكَ!
10
لِيَأْتِ مَلَكُوتُكَ!
لِتَكُنْ مَشِيئَتُكَ عَلَى الأَرْضِ
كَمَا هِيَ فِي السَّمَاءِ!
11
خُبْزَنَا كَفَافَنَا أَعْطِنَا الْيَوْمَ!
12
وَاغْفِرْ لَنَا ذُنُوبَنَا،
كَمَا نَغْفِرُ نَحْنُ لِلْمُذْنِبِينَ إِلَيْنَا!
13
وَلا تُدْخِلْنَا فِي تَجْرِبَةٍ،
لَكِنْ نَجِّنَا مِنَ الشِّرِّيرِ،
لأَنَّ لَكَ الْمُلْكَ وَالْقُوَّةَ وَالْمَجْدَ إِلَى الأَبَدِ.
آمِين.
Inserted ;s and =====s
9b
أَبَانَا ;
الَّذِي فِي السَّمَاوَ ;
============================
اتِ، لِيَتَقَدَّسِ اسْمُكَ! ;
10
لِيَأْتِ ;
مَلَكُوتُكَ! ;
لِتَكُنْ ;
مَشِيئَتُكَ ;
============================
عَلَى الأَرْضِ ;
كَمَا هِيَ فِي السَّمَاءِ! ;
============================
11
خُبْزَ ;
نَا كَفَافَنَا ;
أَعْطِنَا ;
الْيَوْمَ! ;
============================
12
وَاغْفِرْ ;
لَنَا ذُنُوبَنَا، ;
كَمَا نَغْفِرُ ;
نَحْنُ لِلْمُذْنِبِينَ إِلَيْنَا! ;
============================
13
وَلا ;
تُدْخِلْنَا ;
فِي تَجْرِبَةٍ، ;
لَكِنْ نَجِّنَا ;
مِنَ الشِّرِّيرِ، ;
لأَنَّ لَكَ الْمُلْكَ وَالْقُوَّةَ وَالْمَجْدَ إِلَى الأَبَدِ. ;
آمِين ;
Google translate of that
9b
our father;
who is in the heavens;
============================
Come, hallowed be thy name! ;
10
let him come;
Your kingdom! ;
let it be ;
your will ;
============================
On the ground ;
As it is in heaven! ;
============================
11
bread ;
our subsistence;
give us ;
today! ;
============================
12
and forgive;
We have our sins, ;
as we forgive;
We are for those who sin against us! ;
============================
13
no ;
enter us ;
in an experiment, ;
But we survived;
from the evil one, ;
because you have the power, glory and the kingdom for ever. ;
Amen ;
Google translate from before I segmented the Arabic further:
9b
Our Father in heaven
Come, hallowed be thy name!
10
May your kingdom come!
Thy will be done on earth
As it is in heaven!
11
Give us our daily bread!
12
and forgive us our sins,
As we forgive those who trespass against us!
13
lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil,
because you have the power, glory and the kingdom for ever.
Amen.
Google translate transliteration
9b
‘abana ;
aladhi fi alsamaw ;
============================
ati, liataqadas asmuka! ;
10
liat ;
malakutuka! ;
litakun ;
mashiyatuk ;
============================
ealaa al’ard ;
kama hi fi alsama’i! ;
============================
11 khubz ;
na kafafana ;
‘aetina ;
alyawma! ;
============================
12 waghfir ;
lana dhunubana, ;
kama naghfir ;
nahn lilmudhnibin ‘iilayna! ;
============================
13 wala ;
tudkhilna ;
fi tajribatin, ;
lakin najina ;
min alshiriyri, ;
l’ana lak almulk walquat walmajd ‘iilaa al’abadi. ;
amin
Peshitta’s Matthew
Ah-woon ** our Father
d’wash-may-ya ** in heaven
============================
nith-qad-dash shmakh ** holy be Your name
teh’-theh’ ** come
mal-koo-thakh ** Your kingdom
neh-weh ** be done
tsow-ya-nakh ** Your will
============================
ay-kan-na ** as
d’wash-may-ya ** in heaven
ap b’ar-aa ** so on earth.
11 ============================
haw lan ** give us
lakh-ma ** the bread
d’son-qa-nan ** of our need
yo-ma-na ** this day
12 ============================
ow’shwoq lan ** and forgive us
khow-beyn ** our offences
ay-kan-na d’ap kha-nan ** as also we
shwa-qan ** have forgiven
l’khay-ya-wen ** those who have offended us
13 ============================
ow’la ** and not
ta’-lan ** bring us
l’nis-you-na ** into trial
al-la pas-san ** but deliver us
min bee-sha ** from the evil one
============================
modt-dtil d’dee-lak ** for of yours
hee mal-koo-tha ** is the Kingdom
ow’khay-la ** and the power
ow’tish-bokh-tha ** and the glory
l’al-um ail-meen. ** to the age (of) ages, or: to the world (of) worlds
“I don’t speak Arabic”
Nor I.
“when you translate the Greek Our Father into Aramaic or Hebrew (or any Semitic language)”
Arabic is a “Semitic language.” Besides the Arabic verse 12’s r, a, r, a, do you see any rhyming?
“you are going to end up with a lot of what you call ‘rhyming’ because the suffixes will sound the same”
“I’m just talking about the most common translation of these words”
The “most common translation” yields
1. ‘Simon the leper’– when lepers were prohibited from congregating with non-lepers–
2. ‘the Ethiopian eunuch’ planning to worship in Jerusalem– when those castrated were prohibited by Mosaic law from entering the temple–
and
3. ‘Joseph the husband of Mary’– when the context is people being fathers of other people, with 14 x 3 sets of generations, and a ‘thought switcher’ after the presentation of the geneology.
In short, 3 of the Greek NT’s mistranslations. Besides several additional mistranslations.
“See the translations of Murdock, Magiera, Younan”
Native Aramaic speaker Younan thinks Mt 1:16 has ‘Joseph the guardian/father of Mary.’
“Were they all wrong here?”
Younan is correct.
“Do you know of anywhere else in the Peshitta where ܓܒܪܐ is translated as ‘father’ (or ‘step-father’ or ‘guardian’)?”
In a couple places it seems to me to refer to ‘people’ generally, as in ‘have the men (i.e. the people: men, women, and children) sit down in groups’; I recall 1 such instance in Matthew, and 1 such instance in Luke.
In most places it refers to males, without indicating any familial relationship.
In a few places it refers to men who are obviously husbands.
In a few places it refers to men who are obviously fathers.
“If so, by whom, and what percentage of the total number of usages are translated in this way?”
From counting g-b-r-a in Magiera’s concordance:
Mt: 44 instances.
Given the context, I’d say 2 are best rendered with father/s: Mt 1:16 and 7:9.
Given the context, 1 is best rendered with ‘husband’: Mt 19:10.
Everything else: man or men.
Mk: 18 instances.
husband – Mk 10:2
Everything else: man or men.
Lk: 62 instances.
3 are best rendered with father: Lk 8:41, 9:38, 15:11
husband – 0
Everything else: man or men.
Jn: 28 instances.
1 is best rendered with father: Jn 4:50.
husband – 0
Everything else: man or men.
Acts: I didn’t look these up, but Magiera’s concordance lists ~113 instances of g-b-r-a. None of them she translated as ‘husband.’ Everything is man or men, with the exception of Acts 3:14, where her concordance mentions ‘murderer.’
“How do you interpret Lk 10,10-15”
A curse involves desiring that harm come to another.
Jesus didn’t wish for harm to come to anyone.
Luke 10 (Bauscher)
** you do not have permission to see this link **
9 And heal those who are sick in it and say to them,
“The Kingdom of God has come near to you.”
10 “But whichever city you enter
and they will not receive you,
go out to the street and say”:
11 ‘Even the sand that cleaves to our feet
from your city we wipe off unto you,
yet know this,
The Kingdom of God has come near to you.’
12 “I say to you that
it shall be pleasant for Sadom in that day,
compared to that city.”
13 “Woe to you Korazin,
woe to you Bethsaida,
because if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Tsidon
that have occurred in you,
they doubtless would have repented in sackcloth and in ashes.
14 “Yet for Tyre and for Tsidon it shall be pleasant in the day of judgment
compared to you.”
15 “And you Kapernahum, she that was exalted unto Heaven,
you shall be debased unto Sheol.”
Matthew 23 (Bauscher)
** you do not have permission to see this link **
36 Amen, I say to you,
all these things will come upon this generation.
37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you that murdered The Prophets
and stoned those who were sent to it!
How many times have I desired to gather your children,
as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings,
and you were not willing!
38 Behold, your house is left to you desolate!
Do you know the motivations behind both Matthew and Luke removing this Mark material?:
Mark 4 (Bauscher)
** you do not have permission to see this link **
26 And he said,
“Thus is the Kingdom of God like
a man who cast seed in the ground.”
27 “And he shall sleep and arise by night and by day
and the seed grows and lengthens while he is unaware.”
28 “For the earth produces fruit itself;
first shall be the blade
and afterward the ear,
then finally the full wheat in the ear.”
29 “But whenever the fruit ripens,
immediately the sickle is brought
because the harvest has arrived.”
Mark 9 (Bauscher)
** you do not have permission to see this link **
49 “For everything will be seasoned with fire
and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt.”
50b …. Have salt in you
and be at peace with one another.”
Mark 13 (Bauscher)
** you do not have permission to see this link **
35b …. in the evening or at midnight
or at cockcrow or in the morning.”
36 “Lest suddenly he come and find you sleeping.”
///////////////////
edit:
best rendered with father/s: Mt 1:16, 7:9, 17:14, 21:28, and 22:2.
edit:
Mt 1:16 has ‘g-b-r-h,’ which is “the Possessive Pronominal form of” g-b-r-a, meaning ‘her g-b-r-a.’
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
1 Guest(s)