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The Peshitta
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Robert
7068 Posts
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May 12, 2023 - 2:14 pm
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DavidFord

1326 Posts
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May 12, 2023 - 9:38 pm

“Shem Tov’s Hebrew manuscript of Matthew”
The text and a translation of that appears in

_The Hebrew Gospel of Matthew_ by George Howard (1995), 239pp.

Quickly looking through it reveals that it departs from the original Aramaic far more than does the Greek translation.
Some verses in it that caught my attention are Matthew:
1,16, 21
2,23
4,10, 13
6,10, 13
8,20

11,21
12,4, 42
13,55
15,22, 23
16,16
18,11
19,12, 24

21,9
22,44
23,10, 23
24,14
25,31
26,6
27,9, 33, 57, 59

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DavidFord

1326 Posts
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May 13, 2023 - 8:27 pm

Besides the Greek Revelation’s mistranslation of the original Aramaic for Rev 2:22 in having an adulterer being threatened with getting ‘cast into a bed,’ when a better translation is ‘cast upon a bier,’ the Greek Revelation has another mistranslation at Rev 10:1 in saying ‘feet’ were like ‘columns/pillars of fire,’ while the original Aramaic allows for the better rendition, ‘legs like columns/pillars of fire.’

Revelation 10:1 (KJV)
And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven,
clothed with a cloud:
and a rainbow was upon his head,
and his face was as it were the sun,
and his feet [Greek: podes/πόδες/feet] as pillars of fire:

David Robert Palmer, The Revelation of John, part of The Holy Bible, The Ancient Greek Text, alternating verse by verse with A new English translation from the Greek, with translator’s footnotes and Greek textual variant footnotes (May 2017)
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PDF:
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170 10:1b The Greek word here, πους, is the word for feet, but in ancient Greek and many other languages the words for foot or for hand (χειρ) can mean the whole extremity or whole limb. That is especially true in Revelation, which displays much Aramaic influence. It is far more appropriate here to speak of a leg being like a column or pillar than a foot being like a column or pillar.
….
246 13:16b …. An Aramaism is an unusual and rare occurrence, and I think the burden of proof that it is occurring, is on the one saying it is. That said, I have come to believe that Revelation does show an Aramaic mind in its author. For example, though even ancient Greek the words for foot πούς and hand χείρ originally meant the whole limb, not just the foot and hand, this is most definitely always true in Hebrew and Aramaic. The author of Revelation uses πούς, “foot” to mean the whole limb, where he says the feet of the angel were like “columns” of fire Legs are like columns, and feet are not. Therefore similarly, we must conclude that in Revelation 13:16, with χείρ the author means anywhere on the entire upper right limb, not just the hand.

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Robert
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May 14, 2023 - 1:09 pm
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DavidFord

1326 Posts
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May 14, 2023 - 6:40 pm

“Hebrew Matthew, you note the divergences of it from the Peshitta”
The copy I looked at also diverged from the Greek translation.

“but you should also note some of the arguments used for its originality”
What are 2 of those arguments?

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Robert
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May 15, 2023 - 1:40 pm
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DavidFord

1326 Posts
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May 15, 2023 - 4:47 pm

“Read the book for God’s sake”
I looked at it and didn’t see any good arguments for Matthew being originally in Hebrew.
Do you think God exists?

“Why”
Why not.

“held that there were… both Hebrew and Greek versions of the gospel of Matthew”
And Arabic. And Latin.

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Robert
7068 Posts
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128
May 15, 2023 - 5:03 pm
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DavidFord

1326 Posts
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May 15, 2023 - 7:53 pm

“I am agnostic regarding an Interpersonal God, but I would like to believe that one exists. For the time being, I’m content with the God of Spinoza and Einstein”
Einstein was a deist.

“There’s just so much that we do not know, likely cannot know, about the multiverse”
What’s your explanation for the origination of the 1st biological lifeform? (a deistic creator God created it?)

“a Hebrew version that existed alongside Greek Matthew”
I imagine a Latin “version… existed alongside Greek Matthew,” as well.

“with one being the model for the other”
The Hebrew Matthew I saw recently seemed to be modeled on the Greek.

“he would like to believe the Hebrew version was the model for Greek Matthew”

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Robert
7068 Posts
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130
May 15, 2023 - 8:08 pm
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Stephen
4494 Posts
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May 15, 2023 - 11:49 pm

There’s just so much that we do not know, likely cannot know, about the multiverse.

Including of course whether or not the multiverse exists as other than a mathematical concept.

Do you think God exists?

I do not. Here as everywhere nature has nothing but surprises in store for those who show due diligence. Let us not journey into the unknown weighed down with all this tired old baggage.

What’s your explanation for the origination of the 1st biological lifeform?

I know all about it but I can’t tell you because I signed a confidentiality agreement.

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DavidFord

1326 Posts
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May 16, 2023 - 10:54 pm

“read George Howard’s books and articles?”
I read a little of one of his books.

For Matthew 26:6, both George Howard’s copy of Shem Tov and the Greek say Jesus & company visited the house of a leper.
Lepers couldn’t have non-leper house guests.  A better translation of the original Aramaic is house of a potter.

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(Shem Tov)
ויהי כאשר היה יש״ו בכפר חנניה בבית סימון המצורע
(Howard’s translation)
It came to pass when Jesus was in Cephar-hananyah in the house of Simon the leper,
(google translate)
And it came to pass when Jesus was in the village of Hananiah in the house of Simon the leper
(KJV)
Now when Jesus was in Bethany, in the house of Simon the leper,

(based on Younan)
And when Yeshua was in Beth-Aniya, in the house of Shimon the potter,

====================
For Matthew 7:6, the Greek has 2 mistranslations, and Shem Tov makes an even bigger mess.

(Shem Tov)     
עוד אמר להם אל תתנו בשר קדש לכלבים ואל תשימו פניכם לפני חזיר פן יכרסמנו אותה לעיניכם ויחזרו אותה לקרוע אתכם.
(Howard’s translation)
Again he said to them:
Do not give holy flesh to dogs
nor place your (pearls) before swine
lest (they) chew (them) before you
and turn to rend you.

(google translate)
He also told them not to give holy meat to dogs
and not to put your face before a pig,
lest we gnaw it before your eyes
and they bring it back to tear you apart.

(KJV)
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs,
neither cast ye your pearls before swine,
lest they trample them under their feet,
and turn again and rend you.

(based on Younan)
You should not hang earrings on dogs,
and you should not place your pearls before pigs,
that they should not trample them by their feet,
and they overtake and wound you.

=========================
For Matthew 27:9-10, the Greek has the erroneous insertion of “Jeremiah,” while Shem Tov replaced Jeremiah with Zechariah, and has augmentation to the detriment of the passage.

(Shem Tov)
אז נשלם מאמר זכריה הנביא ואומר להם אם טוב בעיניכם רבו שכרי ואם חדלו. וישקלו שכרי שלשים כסף. ויאמר ה״ אלי השליכו אל היוצר. וזהו מהאדם היוצר חרס כאשר אדוני צוה.
(Howard’s translation)
9 Then was fulfilled the word of Zechariah the prophet:
And I said to them:
if it is good in your eyes, multiply my wages,
but if (not), forbear.
So they weighed for my wages thirty pieces of silver.
Then the Lord said to me:
Cast it unto the potter.
This is from the man who forms clay,
10 as the Lord commanded.

(based on Younan)
9. Then the thing was fulfilled which was spoken of by the nabia [prophet] who said,
“I took the thirty (pieces) of silver,
the price of the precious one which (those) from the sons of Israel agreed upon.
10. And I gave them for the field of the potter as MrYa [Master YHWH] commanded me.”

===========
According to Gorgias Press’s single volume Peshitta NT (2020), 661pp., 63
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the verb in Peshitta Matthew 21:14 can be understood either as
‘they brought to him the blind and the lame’
or as
‘the blind and the lame came to him.’

The Greek translator of the original Aramaic misunderstood it as the latter.
Shem Tov has that same misunderstanding.

(Shem Tov)
ויקרבו אליו עורים ופסחים במקדש וירפאם.
(Howard’s translation) 
Then the blind and lame came to him in the temple and he healed them.

Matthew 21:14
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(NIV)
The blind and the lame came to him at the temple, and he healed them.
(King James)
And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
And they brought to him in The Temple the blind and the lame, and he healed them.

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DavidFord

1326 Posts
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133
May 17, 2023 - 8:06 am

“think God exists?”
“I do not”

“What’s your explanation for the origination of the 1st biological lifeform?”
“I know all about it but I can’t tell you because”
What’s your explanation for the origination of the massive amount of information encoded in organisms’ DNA?

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Robert
7068 Posts
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134
May 17, 2023 - 8:16 am
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Robert
7068 Posts
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135
May 17, 2023 - 8:39 am
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Stephen
4494 Posts
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136
May 17, 2023 - 9:42 am

What’s your explanation for the origination of the massive amount of information encoded in organisms’ DNA?

I don’t know.

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DavidFord

1326 Posts
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137
May 17, 2023 - 12:02 pm

“Isn’t that what you would expect from nearly 4 billion years of evolution?”
Mindless-at-every-level processes can’t create information.
Mindless-at-every-level processes operating over a long period of time can’t create information.

“you think that the earth and everything in and above it were created in six days?”
The universe is about 14 billion years old, and the earth is about 4.5 billion years old.

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Robert
7068 Posts
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138
May 17, 2023 - 12:05 pm
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Judith

863 Posts
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May 17, 2023 - 12:09 pm

“you think that the earth and everything in and above it were created in six days?”

I’m one whose family believes every word in the Bible and they are highly educated people. Just last week a whole busload went to Kentucky to see the ark.

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DavidFord

1326 Posts
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140
May 17, 2023 - 12:19 pm

“explanation for the origination of the 1st biological lifeform”
“I have no training or expertise in this area. Do you?”
I don’t, and I’m unaware of anybody who has expertise in coaxing nonliving matter into becoming biological life totally apart from already-existing life.

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