Are you aware of any gospel writers touting the destruction of the Jerusalem temple as being a fulfillment of a prophecy by Jesus?
Matthew liked to tout supposed fulfillments of prophecy:
“prophet” in KJV Matthew, with snips
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added Matthew 13:14 after searching for “fulfilled” in KJV Matthew
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Matthew 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Matthew 2:5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
Matthew 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Matthew 2:17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying,
Matthew 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.
Matthew 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Matthew 4:14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
Matthew 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.
Matthew 12:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
Matthew 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Matthew 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
Matthew 21:4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,
Matthew 26:56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.
Matthew 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;
Matthew 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
It’s internally inconsistent to say that both
1) Jesus prophesied by around AD 30 what’s prophesied in Matthew 24, and those prophecies were grossly mistaken,
and
2) Matthew 24 consist of remarks that were bogusly-ascribed to Jesus after AD 70.
Does anyone here believe that Jesus “made a false prophecy”?
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BDEhrman May 8, 2023 at 8:45 pm
Apart from the seven “undisputed” letters of Paul, all the books of the NT are generally thought to have been written after 70 CE;
intimations of the destruction of the temple can be found in all four Gospels; …
BDEhrman May 5, 2023 at 2:17 pm
Jesus preached lots of things, based on many ideas, views, interpretations of Scripture, and so on;
one aspectd of that was a prediction that he got wrong.
I’d be OK probalby with saying he made a false prophecy…
What if anything that’s below did Jesus actually say?
Mark 13 (NIV)
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1 As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him,
“Look, Teacher!
What massive stones!
What magnificent buildings!”
2 “Do you see all these great buildings?”
replied Jesus.
“Not one stone here will be left on another;
every one will be thrown down.”
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately,
4 “Tell us, when will these things happen?
And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”
5 Jesus said to them:
“Watch out that no one deceives you.
6 Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’
and will deceive many.
7 When you hear of wars and rumors of wars,
do not be alarmed.
Such things must happen,
but the end is still to come.
8 Nation will rise against nation,
and kingdom against kingdom.
There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines.
These are the beginning of birth pains.
9 “You must be on your guard.
You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues.
On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them.
10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations.
11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial,
do not worry beforehand about what to say.
Just say whatever is given you at the time,
for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.
12 “Brother will betray brother to death,
and a father his child.
Children will rebel against their parents
and have them put to death.
13 Everyone will hate you because of me,
but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
14 “When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong—
let the reader understand—
then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
15 Let no one on the housetop go down or enter the house to take anything out.
16 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak.
17 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!
18 Pray that this will not take place in winter,
19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—
and never to be equaled again.
20 “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive.
But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.
21 At that time if anyone says to you,
‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or,
‘Look, there he is!’
do not believe it.
22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear
and perform signs and wonders
to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
23 So be on your guard;
I have told you everything ahead of time.
24 “But in those days, following that distress,
“ ‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
25 the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.
27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect
from the four winds,
from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
28 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree:
As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out,
you know that summer is near.
29 Even so, when you see these things happening,
you know that it is near, right at the door.
30 Truly I tell you,
this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
31 Heaven and earth will pass away,
but my words will never pass away.
32 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
33 Be on guard! Be alert!
You do not know when that time will come.
34 It’s like a man going away:
He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with their assigned task,
and tells the one at the door to keep watch.
35 “Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—
whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn.
36 If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping.
37 What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!’ ”
What if anything that’s below did Jesus actually say?
Mark 8 – Mark 9:1 (NIV)
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27 Jesus and his disciples went on to the villages around Caesarea Philippi.
On the way he asked them,
“Who do people say I am?”
28 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets.”
29 “But what about you?” he asked.
“Who do you say I am?”
Peter answered,
“You are the Messiah.”
30 Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him.
31 He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again.
32 He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.
33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter.
“Get behind me, Satan!” he said.
“You do not have in mind the concerns of God,
but merely human concerns.”
34 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said:
“Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.
35 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it,
but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it.
36 What good is it for someone to gain the whole world,
yet forfeit their soul?
37 Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?
38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation,
the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”
9:1 And he said to them,
“Truly I tell you,
some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.”
What if anything that’s below did Jesus actually say?
Mark 14 (NIV)
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48 “Am I leading a rebellion,” said Jesus,
“that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me?
49 Every day I was with you,
teaching in the temple courts,
and you did not arrest me.
But the Scriptures must be fulfilled.”
50 Then everyone deserted him and fled.
…
60 Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus,
“Are you not going to answer?
What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?”
61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.
Again the high priest asked him,
“Are you the Messiah,
the Son of the Blessed One?”
62 “I am,” said Jesus.
“And you will see the Son of Man
sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One
and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
63 The high priest tore his clothes.
“Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked.
64 “You have heard the blasphemy.
What do you think?”
They all condemned him as worthy of death.
Does anyone here agree with this?:
Bart Ehrman, _Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium_ (1999), 274pp., on 252
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Page 252
6 As we’ll see in ch.13, Christians later interpreted texts like Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 in reference to the Messiah.
But it should be noted that the term “messiah” never occurs in these texts, and that no Jew prior to Christianity, so far as we know, ever understood them to refer to the future Messiah.
***
Are you aware of any gospel writers touting the destruction of the Jerusalem temple as being a fulfillment of a prophecy by Jesus?***
No, I’m not aware. All the NT authors were dead before 70AD.
If you believe that we actually have the original texts written by Homer, Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, ect. ; you might as well believe we have the original NT as written by who they say it was. 🤷♂️
2000 years later now is a little bit too late to go back and prove anything scientifically.
Matthew 26:61, Matthew 27:40 are revealed in John 2:21-22.
Are you aware of any gospel writers touting the destruction of the Jerusalem temple as being a fulfillment of a prophecy by Jesus?
If the gospel writers are correct and Jesus actually made such a prophecy then it would not be all that surprising since there were Jewish groups antagonistic to the Temple establishment because they were excluded in some fashion. Notably the Essenes. The idea that the earthly temple would be replaced by a heavenly temple can be traced back to Ezekiel, if not earlier. If the historical Jesus did not make such a prophecy it’s easy to see why the gospel writers would assume he had since such a momentous occurrence could hardly have gone unforeseen by Jesus! Mark clearly associates the destruction with the Parousia. How could Jesus have missed that?
“If you believe that we actually have the original texts written by Homer, Socrates, Plato, Aristotle”
All we have is copies of copies of copies.
“Matthew 26:61, Matthew 27:40 are revealed in John 2:21-22”
Is this “revealed in” anything?:
Mark 13 (NIV)
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1 As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him,
“Look, Teacher!
What massive stones!
What magnificent buildings!”
2 “Do you see all these great buildings?”
replied Jesus.
“Not one stone here will be left on another;
every one will be thrown down.”
“aware of any gospel writers touting the destruction of the Jerusalem temple as being a fulfillment of a prophecy by Jesus?”
“No, I’m not aware. All the NT authors were dead before 70AD”
I too am unaware of any gospel writer touting the Temple’s AD 70 destruction as having been a fulfillment of Jesus’ saying the Temple would be utterly destroyed.
This despite Mathew, Luke, and John chalking up many events as somehow being fulfillments of prior writings and sayings.
If at the time of writing the gospels, the gospel writers didn’t yet know of the Temple’s AD 70 destruction, that would account for their failure to mention the Temple’s destruction as a fulfillment of Jesus’ saying it would be destroyed.
John 18:32 That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.
“fulfilled” in KJV NT, augmented with “prophet,” with snips
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Mark 1:2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Mark 14:49 I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but the scriptures must be fulfilled.
Mark 15:28 And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.
John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
John 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
John 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
John 18:9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.
John 18:32 That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.
John 19:24 They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.
John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
John 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
Luke 3:4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Luke 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
Luke 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Acts 1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
Acts 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
Acts 8
28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet. …
32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
Acts 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
Acts 13:29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Acts 15
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Acts 26
22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
At which point, if ever, did practitioners of Judaism first believe that Isaiah 53 was Messianic?
Targum Isaiah 53
_The Chaldee Paraphrase on the Prophet Isaiah [by Jonathan b. Uzziel]_ tr. by C.W.H. Pauli (1871), 226pp., on 182-185
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Chapter LIII.
1 Who hath believed this our report?
and to whom is now the power of the arm of the Lord revealed?
2 The righteous shall be great before Him,
behold, like branches that bud;
and like a tree which sends forth its roots by the streams of water,
thus shall the generation of the just multiply in the land,
which hath need of Him.
3 His visage shall not be the visage of a common person,
neither His fear the fear of a plebeian;
but a holy brightness shall be His brightness,
that every one who seeth Him shall contemplate Him.
4 Although He shall be in contempt;
yet He shall cut off the glory of all the wicked,
they shall be weak and wretched.
Lo, we are in contempt and not esteemed,
as a man of pain and appointed to sickness,
and as if He had removed the face of His Shekinah from us.
5 Therefore He shall pray for our sins,
and our iniquities for His sake shall be forgiven us;
for we are considered crushed, smitten of the Lord, and afflicted.
6 He shall build the house of the sanctuary,
which has been profaned on account of our sins;
He was delivered over on account of our iniquities,
and through His doctrine peace shall be multiplied upon us,
and through the teaching of His words our sins shall be forgiven us.
7 All we like sheep have been scattered,
every one of us has turned to his own way;
it pleased the Lord to forgive the sins of all of us for His sake.
8 He shall pray and He shall be answered,
yea, before He shall open His mouth.
He shall be heard;
He shall deliver over the mighty of the nations as a lamb to the slaughter,
and like a sheep before her shearers is dumb,
none shall in His presence open his mouth, or speak a word.
9 He shall gather our captives from affliction and pain,
and who shall be able to narrate the wonderful works
which shall be done for us in His days?
He shall remove the rule of the nations from the land of Israel,
the sins which my people have committed have come upon them.
10 And He shall deliver the wicked into hell,
and the riches of treasures which they got by violence unto the death of Abaddon,
that they who commit sin shall not remain,
and that they should not speak folly with their mouth.
11 And it was the pleasure of the Lord to refine
and to purify the remnant of His people,
in order to cleanse their souls from sin,
that they might see the kingdom of their Messiah,
that their sons and daughters might multiply,
and prolong their days,
and those that keep the law of the Lord shall prosper through His pleasure.
12 He shall deliver their souls from the servitude of the nations,
they shall see the vengeance upon their enemies;
they shall be satisfied with the spoil of their kings.
By His wisdom He shall justify the righteous,
in order to make many to keep the law,
and He shall pray for their sins.
13 Therefore I will divide to Him the spoil of many people,
and the treasures of strong fortifications;
He shall divide the spoil;
because He has delivered His life unto death,
and He shall make the rebellious to keep the law;
He shall pray for the sins of many,
and as for the transgressors,
each shall be pardoned for His sake.
Cf.
Bart Ehrman, _Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium_ (1999), 274pp., on 252
amazon .com/Jesus-Apocalyptic-Prophet-New-Millennium/dp/019512474X/
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Page 252
6 As we’ll see in ch.13, Christians later interpreted texts like Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 in reference to the Messiah.
But it should be noted that the term “messiah” never occurs in these texts, and that no Jew prior to Christianity, so far as we know, ever understood them to refer to the future Messiah.
Yes.
No.
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The word targum (plural targumim or, in English, targums), meaning “translation,” can be applied to any translation, but is used specifically to designate the Aramaic version of the Bible.
Origins
The Targumim have their origin at about the turn of the eras BCE-CE, a time when Hebrew was becoming less widely understood than Aramaic among Jewish congregations.
In synagogue worship the practice arose of giving an oral translation into Aramaic, following the reading of each verse of the Torah and also the Haphtarah, the set reading from the Prophets, though it is possible that the activity of translation began at an earlier stage in the school and academy to meet an educational need.
These translations were not always literal, but at times brought in aggada (traditional stories based on the biblical text) and midrashic material, and might have more of the character of paraphrase than translation.
Written Targums
Targum was at first a purely oral activity, but it was not long before written targumim began to emerge.
Targum Onqelos soon became widely accepted as the most authoritative Targum to the Pentateuch, and enjoyed an official status.
It is likely that Targum Onqelos originated in Palestine in the 1st or 2nd century CE, and was then taken to Babylon, where it underwent a thorough revision in about the 4th-5th centuries CE, before returning to Palestine at a later stage.
…
To the Prophets
The Targum to the Former Prophets (Joshua to Kings) and Latter Prophets (Isaiah to Malachi) is known as Targum Jonathan.
It probably originated in Palestine at about the same time as Onqelos, and then underwent revision in Babylonia, where it was regarded as authoritative and became official.
[Repetitive and purposefully misleading content deleted]
Ezekiel 37 and 38.
Ezekiel 37:24-25
Ezekiel 38:16, that is Matthew 24:30.
Gog = Son of Man
Gog = a Roman αρχων
If anyone back then 2000 years ago understood King David as the anointed one, I’m sure they could have considered it possible that Ezekiel 37:24-25 to be speaking about the return of the anointed one: King David, which would also requires a resurrection of the dead to occur first. (I don’t remove much as a kid, of what the preacher said every Sunday morning because I was always zoned out and reading Ezekiel instead. It was my favorite book some 30 years ago.)
Thanks David Ford,
I’m enjoying this post. We were discussing fulfillment of prophecy about Revelation 20 and Jewish Apocalypse(ism) on a separate post, and it became a question about other prophecy.
The gospel of Matthew is mentioning fulfillment of the messiah, law and prophet prophecies but not the apocalypse prophecies.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
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