“in Revelation… has yet to occur?”
“maybe this: ‘The one who testifies to these things says, ‘Surely I am coming soon’”
Jesus prophesied that the [Mt 16:27-28]”Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels…. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.”
Did that prophecy come to pass?
“Mark may have thought it might be starting to come to fruition with the righteous vengeance of God and the destruction of the temple”
Jesus prophesied that people would [Luke 21:27, 32]”see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory…
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.”
Did that prophecy come to pass?
Luke 21 (KJV)
5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
8 And he said…
I’m looking at the map on the very last page ISBN 960-7847-08-3 (NT Modern Greek)
ΧΑΡΤΕΣ (I love maps more than prose and poetry)
η παλαιστινη την εποχη του χριστου
Palestine
The epoch of the messiah
That looks close enough to me as translating to “the Messianic Age”
People believed they were living in the Messianic Age.
I still believe that with a Sadducees-Christian interpretation it is possible to establish a Preterism kind of explanation. There’s not much need to interpret the Angelic as being more than poetry and euphemisms. No more angels. 👼
The disagreements come from a Pharisees-Christian (Judeo-Christian) interpretation of the scriptures.
The Sadducees were no more mostly after 70AD, so you’re stuck with a Pharisees interpretation of the OT which then influences the NT interpretation, and blending those two conflicts of OT prophecy interpretation creates Judeo-Christianity. 🤷♂️ 😵💫
“with a Sadducees-Christian interpretation… There’s not much need to interpret the Angelic as being more than poetry and euphemisms. No more angels”
Also no more resurrection?
Matthew 22 (NIV)
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23 That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question.
24 “Teacher,” they said, “Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and raise up offspring for him.
25 Now there were seven brothers among us.
The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother.
26 The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh.
27 Finally, the woman died.
28 Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”
29 Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.
30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage;
they will be like the angels in heaven.
31 But about the resurrection of the dead—
have you not read what God said to you,
32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?
He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
“It’s been 2000 more years of murder covenants ever since then.
That does not fully yet fulfill the fullness of Isaiah 2:4″
Agreed, if one is looking at the earth.
However, in the New Jerusalem there isn’t any war,
and peoples from various nations are totally at peace with each other.
Isaiah 2:4 (NIV)
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He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.
Revelation 21 (NIV)
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1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”
for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away,
and there was no longer any sea.
2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem,
coming down out of heaven from God,
prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying,
“Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people,
and he will dwell with them.
They will be his people,
and God himself will be with them and be their God.
4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes.
There will be no more death’
or mourning or crying or pain,
for the old order of things has passed away.”
John 18:36 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
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Yeshua said to him,
“My Kingdom is not from this world;
if my Kingdom were of this world,
my servants would be fighting that
I would not have been delivered up to the Judeans,
but now my Kingdom is not from here.”
Do you see any flaws in this analysis?:
typo fix
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We are not in the last days,
and will never be in the last days.
Many people do not know about the Song of Moses (Deuteronomy 32),
let alone its implications for our understanding of NT eschatology.
Let’s break it down a little bit: 🧵
Before the Israelites entered the promised land, Moses spoke this prophetic Song to them.
In the song, Moses warns the people against turning to idols and foretells of a future generation in Israel– a “perverse and crooked generation” (v. 5)– who will be utterly corrupt, faithless, perverse, and adulterous.
In the song, God says that he will bring Israel’s “latter end” (Deut. 32:29) upon this corrupt generation.
He will avenge the blood of his servants on apostate Israel, and the nations, together with the angels of heaven (an LXX tradition preserves this while the MT erased it because divine council theology made some Israelite monotheists uncomfortable), will sing with God’s people for his saving acts (Deut. 32:43).
Jesus often referred to his generation by quoting the Song of Moses.
He called his generation a “perverse generation” (Matt. 17:17), directly quoting the Song of Moses.
He called it an “adulterous generation,” (Matt. 12:39) echoing God’s warning to Moses that Israel would play the harlot in the last days (Deut. 31:16).
And significantly, Jesus told the Jewish leadership of his day that the righteous blood of all the righteous ever shed on earth would fall upon them, in “this generation,” in the desolation of their house (Matt. 23:34-38).
Without a doubt, the generation foretold by the Song of Moses had arrived.
Further, when the Holy Spirit was poured out on the day of Pentecost, Peter pleaded with his audience in Jerusalem to “save” themselves from “this crooked generation,” again quoting the Song of Moses (Acts 2:40).
Two of the main themes of the book of Acts is the Jews [better: Yehudians] shedding the blood of Christians, as well as the Jews [better: Yehudians] making the Temple and nation their idol.
The Song foretold that in the latter end, Israel’s final generation would be more idolatrous than any previous one, and shed innocent blood.
In Revelation 19, after the fall of Mystery Babylon– the city guilty of Jesus’ blood (Rev. 11:8), the blood of all prophets, and the blood of Jesus’ apostles (Rev. 18:24)– the angels of heaven sing praises to God, and they invite God’s people to do the same.
Heaven even quotes the Song of Moses– “HE HAS AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS BOND-SERVANTS ON HER” (v. 2)– to speak of the vindication God has wrought on behalf of his persecuted people.
And just like the Song said, the nations (Rev. 7:9), the righteous within Israel (Rev. 14:1ff), and the angels of heaven (Rev. 19:1ff) all worship God for what he has done in enacting his judgment on the great “harlot.”
God has brought the “latter end” upon her.
What this means:
-Mystery Babylon was first-century Jerusalem
-We are not, and will never be in the last days. They have come and gone.
-The wedding of the Lamb has come, which means the kingdom and new creation have come in glory.
They are not physical realities, but the new covenant world brought to reality through the finished work of Christ.
-The Song of Moses is the template for NT eschatology.
Do you see any flaws in this analysis?:
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The internal and external evidence for a pre-70 dating of the Revelation is extremely strong.
The traditional external evidence for the post-70 dating is convincing at first but upon scrutiny isn’t as strong as it first seems.
Every testimony of a post-70 dating after Irenaeus got their information from him. Victorinus in the 4th century AD did not have magical abilities that enabled him to date the book accurately, nor did he have divine knowledge on the matter. He was holding up what was the traditional, and I would add reasonable, view to hold. This tradition originated with Irenaeus, a 2nd century Church writer. To be brief, there is a lot of debate over the translation of Irenaeus’ words. Obviously, the common English translation is to render him as saying that “John saw” the Apocalypse during the reign of Domitian. But there is linguistic grounds for the view that really, it should be rendered that John, the writer of Apocalypse, had last been seen during the reign of Domitian. I hold to this view.
But even if Irenaeus did say that John saw the vision under Domitian’s reign, that doesn’t negate the stronger internal and external evidence for pre-70 dating. If Irenaeus did express a post-70 dating view, his would be the only unique and independently attested testimony to that effect (this isn’t even taking into account that Irenaeus was wrong on several other key historical data, such as Jesus’ age when he died). The contents of the book of Revelation and other external evidence strongly point to a pre-70 dating.
Internal evidence:
Martyr vindication. A common theme in the book is the hope [of] martyr vindication. Jesus said that all the martyrs in *human history*, beginning with Abel, and including the OT prophets, and his own future apostles and prophets, would be avenged in his generation at the fall of the Temple (Matthew 23).
Babylon. The description of Babylon fits 1st century Jerusalem as hand in glove. Segueing from martyr vindication, Babylon was the city guilty of “all the righteous blood shed on earth,” which again, Jesus identified as Jerusalem in Matthew 23. A core theme of Revelation is the fall of this apostate, adulterous city (Rev. 6, 11, 16, 17, 18, 19). This strongly indicates to us that John wrote before this happened (unless we deny inspiration and the ability of a prophet from God to predict the future)
Temple still standing. In Revelation 11, the Jerusalem temple is depicted as still standing. This is impossible in a post-70 dating view.
John’s Olivet discourse. The elements of Revelation are ultimately just an expanded version of the Olivet discourse accounts found in Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. The Olivet discourse is about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70.
Relationship with Pre-70 apostolic letters. Revelation bares several key similarities with other apostolic written communications of the pre-70 period. For example, 1 Peter was written before AD 70 as the vast majority of people agree. John, writing to 7 premier churches in Asia minor, warned them of a coming “fiery trial” (Rev. 3:10). Peter, writing to the same exact churches (1Peter 1:1ff), comforted them and told them not to be alarmed about the “fiery trial” that *has already come upon them.* This strongly indicates Revelation was written before 1 Peter, thus before AD 70.
Israel’s Festal Imagery in the book. Revelation is littered with allusions and echoes of Israel’s rich festal calendar. One such allusion is the 144,000 redeemed saints of Israel being the “first fruits” redeemed by God from among men (Rev 14:1-5). They were the first generation of Christians, in other words. This precludes a post-70 dating. Not only that, but they are said to have gone through the “great tribulation” and have overcome the Beast and his image. Jesus posited the great tribulation for his own generation in Matthew 24, directly linking it to the fall of the city and the temple in AD 70. Why would John write about a generation of Christians from 30 years prior, saying they had overcome the beast and gone through the tribulation leading up to the fall of the Temple in AD 70 when those things had nothing to do with what was going on in AD 96?
External evidence:
1) You cited Victorinus. While he did take the late date view, he also acknowledged and even suggested the pre-70 date in his commentary. Again we must keep in mind the late date tradition was a single strand tradition that began with Irenaeus.
2) The Muratorian fragments contain a copy of Revelation from the 2nd century, which is highly suggestive the book was copied several times already and had already been in circulation for a while.
3) Clement of Alexandria (2nd century) said that many prominent church leaders believed Revelation was written under Nero.
4) While Eusebius accepted the Irenaeus tradition, he noted that many Christians believed Revelation was written under Claudius (AD 41-54).
5) Papyrus 115 contains a 3rd century copy of Revelation that says the number of the beast is 616, which seemingly confirms identification with Nero.
6) Revelation is a book of visions and prophecies concerning the fulfillment of the “mystery of God” that he spoke to his servants the prophets (Revelation 10:7). Jesus said that all the prophets had written would be fulfilled in his days (Luke 21:22).
If there is a NT Apocalyptic prophecy mentioned in the NT along with the specific name of the OT prophet : (e.g. Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Isaiah) ; then I will consider that as the same OT prophecy. Because there’s not, the apocalyptic prophecies of Jesus and Paul were NOT dependently synonymous to the OT Apocalyptic prophecies.
“Internal evidence:
Martyr vindication.
A common theme in the book is the hope [of] martyr vindication.
Jesus said that all the martyrs in *human history*,
beginning with Abel, and including the OT prophets,
and his own future apostles and prophets,
would be avenged in his generation at the fall of the Temple (Matthew 23).”
> This does not support pre-70 composition.
> Martyrdom occurred, probably to a greater extent, post-70.
Do you think Jesus said this?:
Matthew 23 (Berean Literal)
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34 Because of this, behold,
I send to you prophets
and wise _men_ and scribes.
Some of them you will kill and will crucify,
and _some_ of them you will flog in your synagogues,
and will persecute from town to town;
35 so that upon you shall come all _the_
righteous blood being poured out upon the earth,
from the blood of the righteous Abel
to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah,
whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36 Truly I say to you,
all these things will come upon this generation.
“Babylon.
The description of Babylon fits 1st century Jerusalem as hand in glove.
Segueing from martyr vindication,
Babylon was the city guilty of ‘all the righteous blood shed on earth,’
which again, Jesus identified as Jerusalem in Matthew 23.
A core theme of Revelation is the fall of this apostate, adulterous city (Rev. 6, 11, 16, 17, 18, 19).
This strongly indicates to us that John wrote before this happened
(unless we deny inspiration and the ability of a prophet from God to predict the future)”
> Rome is a much better candidate as a city guilty of all the righteous blood shed on earth.
Was Rome involved in:
“the blood of the righteous Abel”?
“the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah”?
Jesus-sent “wise _men_ and scribes… flog[ged] in… synagogues”?
“Temple still standing.
In Revelation 11, the Jerusalem temple is depicted as still standing.
This is impossible in a post-70 dating view.
John’s Olivet discourse.
The elements of Revelation are ultimately just an expanded version of the Olivet discourse accounts found in Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21.
The Olivet discourse is about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70.”
> Revelation also describes the destruction of the temple,
> which is merely _vaticinium ex eventu_.
Which Revelation verse are you looking at?
In your view, when was this written?:
Revelation 11 (Berean Standard)
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1 Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff and was told,
“Go and measure the temple of God and the altar,
and count the number of worshipers there.
2 But exclude the courtyard outside the temple.
Do not measure it,
because it has been given over to the nations,
and they will trample the holy city for 42 months.
Also, when was this written?:
Revelation 17:10 (NIV)
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They are also seven kings.
Five have fallen,
one is,
the other has not yet come;
but when he does come,
he must remain for only a little while.
> I don’t deny inspiration or the ability of people to sometimes predict the future,
> but critical scholarship cannot merely presume this.
Are you aware of any instances of where:
Jesus successfully “predict[ed] the future”?
Daniel successfully “predict[ed] the future”?
Jesus make a prediction that turned out to be mistaken/ erroneous/ not-fulfilled?
Daniel make a prediction that turned out to be mistaken/ erroneous/ not-fulfilled?
Jesus is quoted as making an after-the-event ‘prediction’ about an event that had already occurred?
Daniel is quoted as making an after-the-event ‘prediction’ about an event that had already occurred?
“Relationship with Pre-70 apostolic letters. …
For example, 1 Peter was written before AD 70 as the vast majority of people agree.”
> The vast majority of critical scholars disagree.
“Israel’s Festal Imagery in the book.
Revelation is littered with allusions and echoes of Israel’s rich festal calendar. …”
> Do you also date the Talmud to pre-70 CE?
=========================
Francis Gumerlock, _Revelation and the First Century (Preterist Interpretations of the Apocalypse in Early Christianity)_ (2012)
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Among the many new insights gained in this book, you will read from many early and medieval Christians who believed:
. John wrote Revelation before A.D. 70
. “The hour of testing” (Rev 3:10) occurred immediately after the death of Nero
. The Emperor Titus was one of the horsemen of the Apocalypse
. The seal and trumpet judgments were fulfilled in the first century Roman-Judean war
. The Roman Emperor Nero was the beast of Revelation 13
. Nero’s name was used in calculation of the number of the beast, 666
_New Testament Eschatology: What the Early Church Believed About Bible Prophecy_, formerly titled _The Early Church and the End of the World_
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The evidence shows that many early church writers understood the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 to be the end of the Old Covenant world.
Do you see any flaws in this reasoning?:
Alex Polyak, _The End Is Here: How the New Testament’s Prophecies were Fulfilled_ (2024), 530pp., on 444
Second, if the temple/city had already been destroyed, John, the author of Revelation, would have said so!
The destruction of Jerusalem and the temple was one of Jesus’s most important and significant prophecies, so had it been fulfilled, John would have certainly mentioned it.
In fact, he likely would have touted the fulfillment as proof that Jesus was the prophet he claimed to be.
Just think about how many times the New Testament writers said things like,
“This was done in fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy” (Matt. 12:17) and,
“This happened to fulfill what was said by the prophet” (Matt. 1:22).
John surely would have done the same kind of thing!
I can’t think of any apocalyptic prophecies where the OT prophet was mentioned by name, and Jesus never mentions the prophet Daniel by name when speaking about the “son of man”. Because of that I think those prophecies were not intended to be fulfilled exactly as the book of Daniel tells. The only prophet that Jesus mentioned by name was Elijah as being John the Baptist.
And it came to pass that at the time there was no such thing as a Canonical Hebrew Bible (Tanakh). The *Torah* and *Nevi’im* (Law and Prophets) were probably decided before the birth of Jesus but the *Ketuvim* was not decided until after the Jewish Roman Wars. That’s an important consideration because Daniel, huh ok unexpectedly was not categorized as part of the *Nevi’im*(Prophets). Daniel is part of the *Ketuvim* in the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) classification of literature.
To me it looks like the Christians were patiently waiting for the Jews to officially declare what their entire Bible was before they (Christians) could then decide was their new Bible was going to be.
BDEhrman
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