(25 votes, average: 4.88 out of 5)
Loading...As many blog members know, I left the Christian faith because of the problem I had with understanding why there could be so much suffering in the world if there was an all-powerful and truly-loving God in control of it. I have sometimes received questions about that, and will deal with one of them soon in a separate post. But before doing so I want to provide a bit of personal background.
In this post I want to make it clear that – as I’ve said a number of times on the blog before — I did not leave the Christian faith because of my scholarship on the Bible or on the history of early Christianity. On the contrary, virtually everything I know and think based on my scholarship on the Bible is known and thought by many, many biblical scholars, who continue to be committed Christians. Including friends who serve as pastors of churches. BUT, they are obviously not fundamentalists or evangelicals. Far from it. They moved on from that long ago, and have a historically-informed faith, not one driven by dogmatic interests..
Many of them had the same experience I had, as I acquired an increasingly deeper understanding of what the Bible actually is and where it came from. That kind of scholarship did indeed lead me, reluctantly, to leave the evangelical form of the faith that I had held dear for many years. That form of the faith involved an absolute commitment to the Bible as the infallible word of truth and to the teachings I had been taught that it taught.
I began to see, in fact, that many of those teachings are not at all …
Why we, and others, suffer is unusually important topic, for *all* of us. Would you like to read more about how I see it, in relation to the Bible? The rest of this post is for members of the blog but it is easy and inexpensive to join. Your small membership fee goes to help those in need. So why not join?
When I hear/read about the problem of suffering, I’ve always not just questioned how a God could allow it, but why God is conceptualized in a particular way. God is all knowing, all powerful and all good. Why? Would a Hindu agree? Would the ancient Greeks and Romans have agreed? Do you have to agree to even call yourself Christian? Funny enough, I think the Old Testament offers evidence to suggest that early Jews didn’t conceptualize God this way. God is walking through the Garden of Eden asking where Adam is. Doesn’t he know? It says that God regretted making mankind for how wicked it had become. How can a perfect being regret anything? Having no gods before me implies the existence of other gods.
I fully agree that suffering is a problem and it’s existence isn’t easily explained away for anyone adhering to the idea of the Christian God. Have you ever been inclined to believe there is a creator even if that creator wasn’t quite what you thought? I’m not saying you should, because I don’t think there is compelling evidence to say there probably is one. But people have various reasons for believing in God, so why not?
Yup, you’re completely right. This is a problem for monotheists. Other religions have other problems, but it is not why the one good almighty creator God allows suffering.
At any point during your deconversion, prior to becoming an atheist, did your view of the nature of God change? Certainly your view of the Bible did. I don’t think belief in an imperfect God is common among monotheists and I am not sure why not. It seems like a more likely possibility than a perfect one.
I had more doubts than firm beliefs about the nature of God, but I never thought that if there was a God he would be imperfect.
Great and honest post. Keep going with the “intriguing question” at the end. Thanks
If you see horrific suffering at one end of the spectrum and stunning beauty, humanity and wonder at the other end, I guess you can make a choice as to which side you take a stand on. For many Christians, suffering is a mystery and that’s the only explanation. Not a great explanation, for sure, but a humble one. If you accept that we humans know very little about ultimate issues of life, death, and the universe, a case can be made for accepting suffering as a mystery and opting to take a stand on the side of beauty, wonder, and the best of humanity, and yes, God.
Yes, I too am on the side of beauty and humility in the face of the universe. I nice area of common cause between atheists and Christians!
Hi Dr. Erhman, I am a recent reader of your blog and appreciate what you have had to say on so many issues. Phenomenal stuff. As I have read your content, one question has come to mind repeatedly: What about experience? Did you not have any experiences of/from God that made walking away from the faith prohibitive? If I ever came to a place where I felt compelled to walk away from Christianity, I would be essentially unable to do so due to the numerous experiences I have had that defy all manner of reason. Not touchy-feely stuff, and also not things like charismatic experiences that could be explained away… Did you not have any experiences during your journey in Christianity that been like a splinter you just can’t shake? I am not evangelizing here…just trying to understand a bit better. Even if I got so mad at God that I wanted to punch him in the face (well, I have…), my experiences of Him would prohibit me from believing he does not exist. Thanks for any thoughts along these lines.
OH, yes, I had many, many, many experiences of God, for years, usually daily. One thing that was hard to shake was prayer. But I have to say, I never ever was angry with God. I never felt I had any right, place, or understanding to be angry. I simply got to a point where I didn’t believe he existed, and that the experiences I had were normal human experiences that I had wrongly attributed to a divine presence in my life.
Thank you so much for taking the time to reply! I don’t know if it is your practice to circle back to a response, so I will reply and see…haha. I get that. I have been through three years of utter hell, and I’d be hard-pressed to say I have not occasionally become very frustrated with God. I’m not so arrogant to think God owes me a thing, but man my family has given our lives to Him unto much suffering…and then to see the kind of hell that’s been poured into our family has been hard sometimes. However, the experiences I have had over the years would just plain forbid me from thinking God did not exist. I am about as analytical/logical as they come and pretty suspicious of miracles and the like…but some of the stuff I’ve had happen could not be explained away as a misattribution.
If I could please share one example: My dad died nine years ago on the 8th. He lived a bumpy life, and as a result, I don’t have many “good” stories to share about him…so I virtually never spoke of him in sermons.
One rare time in a sermon I was referencing a sentimental gift he had given me as a child that I lost. I spoke about how I wished I had kept that gift, as I really wanted something to remember him by. That Sunday I entered the church feeling sad, missing my dad a bit. I found a brown box that had arrived in the mail for me unexpectedly. Inside was a pair of old brown boots. The enclosed letter said (in part): “Dear Brad – The enclosed pair of Red Wing boots belonged to your father who left them behind when he moved out of my house back in November 1997. I consider them to be valuable and worthy of being returned to his son…” The letter was written by his landlord at the time. That landlord saved a random old pair of brown work boots for NINETEEN years, and they entered my possession at the very precise moment I was wishing I had something from my dad. I have a dozen or more stories like this. It would be illogical to explain them away as coincidence.
Bart, One of the first of your books that I read was “God’s Problem” which started me on the slippery slope of being a big fan of yours. Now I’m close to believing that you really can walk on water. LoL. My question is: Do you not believe in God because of so much suffering in the world, so He must not exist, or do you choose to not worship a God who would allow such suffering? That such a deity is not the kind of deity that you feel is worthy of worshipping? I will always be a believer, but you have made me a much more educated one. Thank you for helping me to analyze my faith.
Ah, good question. No, I simply don’t think God exists. I never ever thought he was a divine being I could not bring myself to worshp. I’ve never been angry or upset with God — I never thought I had the right or the place to do that or feel that. I just came to a place where I realized I simply don’t think there is a God. It’s a very different view from, say, that of Elie Wiesel.
You have probably done this before but could you write a blog about how evangelicals can still justify belief despite all the contradictions, forgeries and fabrications you’ve talked about in all your books that I’ve read?
I think it would be an interesting point of view.
I do understand the suffering part. I had a front row seat watching a gentle, quiet, kind and wonderful wife very slowly and torturously die of brain cancer.
The kind of lady who never forgot to put her 20 dollar bill in her Catholic Church envelope each week…
But, I thinks it’s more the other things you talk about in your books that affirm what I’ve always thought…thanks
Yes, I”ve done that a good bit — and more than that, I’ve had Christians on the blog explain why they believe even though they know there are contradictions. (Look for posts by Jeffrey Siker and Judy Siker, e.g.). Most evangelicals, of course, simply don’t think there are contradictions, forgeries, and fabrications. But you’re right, the much harder part is watching others suffer. I’m so sorry to hear abouut the kind and wonderful wife….
Prof Ehrman,
Just got my copy of my long-awaited ‘Misquoting Jesus’. I am studying it as a textbook so will be coming back on troubling areas.
Historically, please when did the Christianity begin?
When Jesus’ followers first came to think he was raised from the dead.
Once you assert that the universe or something in the universe cares about and has the power to help you, suffering becomes a problem for you. Why would that something that cares about and has the power to help you not do so when you are suffering? Once you accept that you are just another collection of atoms like the chair that you are sitting on and no more special to the universe than that chair, things become simpler to understand. But scary too. Has anyone studied the connection between the desire for some perceived control that comes from prayer and divine intervention over the misfortunes that life throws at you and the human inclination towards religiosity? There may be other reasons for religion but I think that this desire for control over things that are otherwise out of our control is a major one.
That need to not feel things are totally out of control is why there’s the saying familiar to anyone who served in the military: “There are no athiests in foxholes.”
I am reminded of New York cardinal O’Connor, who once said that the Jews had a special gift of suffering to give the world. He seemed honestly astonished by the uproar he provoked.
Personally, I no longer accept the idea of a god, but not because of suffering. It’s because all the evidence says there isn’t one. So I would pose the question in a non-teleological way: Not “why is there suffering?” but “what can we do about the suffering that exists?”
I completely agree. We may not have an answer, but we can have a response.
I have struggled with this problem for many years. In my own life as a Christian, I suffered from mental illness and prayed earnestly for God to heal my mind every day. But he never did. I couldn’t understand why God wouldn’t want to let me be a better Christian and more able to help others by giving me a whole mind. And I saw so many other apparently righteous Christians who also suffered and didn’t seem to have their prayers answered positively. Then I started to think about all the non-Christians who suffered and had no hope of it being made better (in fact it would get a lot worse) after they died. Around this time I started to read your books. I found them very helpful in helping me to realize that the Bible wasn’t inerrant but was written by many men over a long period and then altered by others. Many of those authors were struggling to make sense of their own situations (personally, culturally, etc.) and reconcile it with their understanding of God. This helped me a lot in my own situation and I just wanted to thank you for that.
Thanks so much for letting me know. Good luck has you journey onward.
I used to question why God would create a world full of suffering. I now believe in God although I wouldn’t call myself a Christian anymore. My beliefs are closer to Judaism. I believe that suffering is man-made as well as a test from God.
How do you deal with the phrase, “God is good, all the time”?
If I believed in God, I would agree with it.
200 word limit limits us to elaborate on this topic. Its almost political. Prove your point but you’re going to run out of oxygen before you do.
The NT is hardly the only source to enlighten us about the topic of suffering. And should not be the only one.
But in short:
Teachers set guidelines and curriculum for a course then test. Students do not question nor test the teacher. its not their place to. The wisdom in that, belongs to the teacher. Pass or fail.
Likewise, the creation have a set of rules sent by the Creator ( prophets/messengers/books.. ect ). Why… to test. Not to challenge wisdom.
What you consider suffering may not be. And it is not the creation’s place to question the Creator’s wisdom.
The one who perished in a tsunami, volcano or any other event you consider unjust and unfair may very well not be. The dead have their day with the Creator. The alive ones equally. The Creator will question All of us individually about his rules and commandments whether or not we complied. Pass or fail. Not whether we felt he was unjust and unfair in retrieving what belongs to him. I’m suffering LOL. So much more to say.
You basically show main problems with Christianity and some others. If a god wanted us to blindly obey, why not give clear directions and ensure we know they are from god? Instead we have multiple conflicting religions, all proving they are the “true” one. So which one did god want us to blindly obey “pass or fail”? And if we were given free will, then obviously a god wanted us to use reason and wisdom as best we are able and not blindly obey.
What reliable directions were given and proven from a creator instead of man? If you pick one please give your proof it is THE one!
Any god that could create a heaven as described in the Bible has no need for a world of suffering. Supposedly, people can live perfect lives for eternity with free will and without suffering in heaven. No need to test people or require suffering by a god claimed to be caring.
In the end, any creator with the infinite power and knowledge is responsible for their creation. Christians claim ALL fail and sin, 100% failure rate. Any omnipotent, omniscient, and caring god, if existing, could do a much better job.
I fully agree.
I am certain that you have mentally struggled with the problem of suffering. In the context of the pandemic and all of the political chaos, I can’t help thinking’ about all of the Americans who are in such dire straits that they can’t really struggle with the problem mentally, they just have to deal with it the best they can, because there is no alternative other than …… Looking forward to the intriguing question that prompted your posts on suffering
1) After many questions arose in my study of the Bible I read it cover to cover and realized it was a human book, though extremely interesting, but the God of the Bible is human, not divine; 2) if God would simply give people a clearer explanation for their suffering, like why their child is dying despite their earnest prayers, yet God remains silent, except in the minds of those who imagine some irrational answer to explain away their grief. I feel for them, perhaps more than their unanswering God? (Do I hear thunder?)
It’s the lightning you have to look out for….
Hi Y’all,
Bart, it seems to me after many decades of reflection, that everything is interpretation. The problem of pain and suffering, included. When the Psalmist observed that “if I make my bed in hell, behold He is there” perhaps he was a few years ahead of Wittgenstien, no? Well, yes, suffering is a challenge. But: God with us!
eric @ MeridaGOround
I sense this subject is deep within your thoughts and more importantly, belief. I concur with all your points in this post and previous ones. In this post, the line that hit me was,”and that it was not easy to claim that the ethical teachings from its context could be simply transferred into a 20th century situation”. I always wondered that, if we truly adhered to the teachings of Jesus,faithfully and universally, would this world be a better place? Pascal said, ” An effective Religion and doctrine must be contrary to nature, to common sense and to pleasure”. Another words, everything we crave. But, Eric Hoffer, known as an atheist, who considered religious views profound with a positive force, had a view that i have never heard before, from anyone. In his book,” True Believer”, he says,” The effectiveness of a doctrine does not come from it’s meaning but from it’s certitude. No doctrine however profound and sublime will be effective unless it is presented as the embodiment of the one and only truth. In order to be effective, a doctrine must not be understood, but has rather to be believed in. We can be absolutely certain…..
……We can be absolutely certain only about things we do not understand”. He continues,” A doctrine that is understood is shorn of it’s strength. Once we understand a thing, it is as if it had originated in us. And, clearly, those who are asked to renounce the self and sacrifice it cannot see eternal certitude in anything in which originates in that self. The fact that they understand a thing fully impairs its validity and certitude in their eyes. The devout are always urged to seek the absolute truth with their hearts and not their minds. It is the heart which is conscious of God, not the reason. Who knows Jesus knows the reason of all things. The true doctrine is a master key to all the world’s problems.With it the world can be taken apart and put together. The true believer is emboldened to attempt the unprecedented and the impossible not only because his doctrine gives him sense of omnipotence but also because it gives him unqualified confidence in the future”. Maybe these are some of the struggles I face, many of us, in believing in a God. The shedding of thy self is difficult.
I have found it fascinating how people who have suffered intensely do find comfort in God and Jesus. I have heard of young girls who were sexually trafficked, then rescued, then trafficked again by their rescuer.
The horrible disappointment of being free but then back in such a situation is crushing to the spirit and sense of trust. Yet later some people find comfort in God, who somehow allowed these things to occur. To me, it suggests that the Holy Spirit can indeed heal. But the question of why the suffering is allowed in the first place is truly perplexing.
The youtube channel “Real Women/ Real Stories” is a place where some of these stories are told.
Thanks for providing a forum and foundation to help alleviate suffering.
What is the historical evidence that God has ever actively taken sides or answers prayers at a rate beyond random chance? But an inactive God doesn’t categorically disprove God per se…..I think you can still have a God, just not one that is all powerful….or all knowing. Now I acknowledge that that conclusion nullifies much of Christianity, but it still leaves open the possibility of a Creator…and of a judge….and of some sort of judgment. Maybe the message of Jesus was horribly twisted and corrupted…and that we were simply asked to persevere and take care of one another….or else. Again, I agree, it’s a pretty big long shot that Jesus was representing God to deliver the most important message….ever….during a superstious and generally ignorant historical period…to a tiny part of the world. I think you discount how much your understanding of that first century….and of the contradictions and human inconsistencies of the New testament….could make it just too difficult to rationalize everything that needs to be rationalized. Suffering seems like a grand philosophical objection….but really it’s our understanding of how imperfect and flawed man is that makes for the best practical objection….too much chance for misunderstanding
Right — I don’t think there is any way at all to disprove that there is a God. For me it’s a question of why I should think there *is* a God….
“Why should I think there is a God…”
Given that you don’t think God, as described in the Bible, is implausible given the suffering in the world, do you trouble yourself to attempt to find an explanation of the origins of the universe? We didn’t come from nothing…one would have to assume…
All the time. Like everyone else, Im amazed at the Big Bang, and the mysteries of it all. But I think modern science is more likely to know where the universe came from than ancient people who had no clue.
I have always found it ironic that the mysterious ways in which god is said to act do seem to be indistinguishable from random chance
“I did not leave the Christian faith because of my scholarship on the Bible or on the history of early Christianity”
But your faith did start waning because of your scholarship, didn’t it? That’s what I understood by reading your books.
My belief in the Bible certainly waned; and I began seriously to question my beliefs and to try to find good grounds for believing what I did. But I remained in the faith as a non-evangelical with a commitment to the church and its mission for years before deciding I jsut did not believe in God, and my scholarshipo on the Bible was not the reason for coming to that view.
Hi Bart. Thank you for all you share with us. Very appreciated.
Re the above, can you explain what beliefs you had and other Christian scholars now have? Your explanations re viewing Jesus as thinking of himself as an apocalyptic prophet have made a lot of sense to me, plus realising how unreliable the NT is, and seeing theological progression through the later gospels etc. I can see people choosing to continue to believe in God, but taking the Bible very loosely/metaphorically.. but struggle to see how people stay Christian in the sense of believing Jesus is God. Can you explain more please on Christian scholars’ beliefs/your previous beliefs.
Am very grateful you give us chance to ask questions and all the time you give up,
Best regards
Christine
I’d be happy to — but I”m not sure which beliefs you’re asking about? (Christians believe lots of things about a lot of things: which are you wondering about?)
Thank you for this post about “My Struggle With Why There Is Suffering”.
since your views on very many biblical subjects changed since
> leaving the evangelical form of the faith that I had held dear for many years
I would ask if your thoughts on Jesus ‘views of suffering’ changed from that time ?
I guess to ask specifically
When you were evangelical, did you see Jesus’ teaching on Kingdom of God to be a world of no disease, no natural disasters, no physical deaths, and even no births?
Did you see that world/kingdom being initiated by supernatural personage (Jesus at second coming) coming on the (literal) clouds of heaven?
[Is that how you were brought up to consider the all powerful, all loving God, to resolve the question of suffering?]
if so, have your views regarding Jesus teaching, about the question of suffering changed very much, or any?
FYI: growing up I never held those types of things to be components of Jesus’ teachings,
When I was an evangelical I thought Jesus’ teachings about the Kingdom of Heaven were about what happened to us when we died and were rewarded for believing in him.
I can’t speak to this personally as I’ve never had a “psychedelic” experience, but I’ve always been intrigued by those who have who report having felt a tremendous “certainty” that the world is perfectly designed and perfectly ordered, and that all is as it should be. I myself can’t fathom how this could be, looking at our obviously imperfect world, but still I wonder if, in some mysterious way, this might not in fact be the case. The universe isn’t compelled to follow, and certainly isn’t limited by, our human logic or current understanding. Indeed, as we are learning more and more about our universe, we already know that ultimate reality must transcend our current scientific paradigm.
(As an addendum to my post, I’m referring to the “noetic” part of the brain that some psychedelics seem to trigger, and why people often report having had an experience of the “Divine” when this portion of the brain is stimulated. Like near-death experiences, their meaning is entirely dependent on how we interpret them – materially, spiritually, or (in my view) – both).
As someone who has struggled with the same issues as you, but decided to remain a Christian, I really appreciate this post. With so much of the Christian world overbearing and ignorant on so many issues, it is no surprise many people are walking away. For me, ultimately I became comfortable with remaining Christian by embracing *doubt* as not just OK, but kind of the whole point—in other words, doubt is a feature, not a bug. Ultimately to me, religion is a means to come to a point of inner peace and love for others and the world around us, and these days I just LOVE seeing how both Christian and non-Christian thinkers and writers throughout history have come to find those values inside themselves.
I truly appreciate your comments; I feel that I could have written many of them describing myself. The problem I experience in leaving my lifelong beliefs is the existential pain in addressing the meaning of life that this has created for me. There is a creative force (Big Bang) but can it be personal? There is one very remote way out – quantum mechanics posits the preservation of energy once created (body and brain) and multiple dimensions for preservation in some form – definitely a long shot but something to think about.
Keep up your excellent scholarship.
I haven’t believed in a God who was a discreet being ‘up there’ for a number of years. I don’t believe in the randomly interventionist Got but more like Paul Tillich’s concept of God as ‘the ground of all being’. So God is in all and suffers along with us. What’s pushing me away from, the faith is the institution of the church which seems more interested in maintaining the Nicene creed view of the world than in seeking truth.
Your honesty is admirable and refreshing – thank you. I have no answers but I do have questions.
Are pain and suffering necessarily the same thing, or must one follow the other? Feeling pain is essential to being human, but can you experience pain without suffering? Is suffering a choice? Sometimes? Nearly all have experienced untimely deaths of loved ones. Can we not choose to either pity them (or our own mortality) or to feel the immense beauty of having known those persons?
Was Nietzsche right – can pain serve a purpose?
Are those with physical or mental defects necessarily suffering, or are we projecting our fears onto them?
Is death suffering? Two things (excluding taxes) I believe are certain: we will all die, and no person knows what happens after death. Anyone who claims to is lying. Who then is to say that any death is tragic? Is it not marvelous that nobody does know what happens after death? (Just imagine how people would behave if they did know). Would it not be truly hell to know everything, to not have mystery in life?
IMO religion attempts to explain suffering and offer assurances of a just existence, while philosophy looks objectively at existence.
Pain can certainly serve a purpose. That’s why we evolved with sensory neurons! My view is that death is not suffering at all. It’s the absence of suffering. In fact, it’s the absence of everything….
Hi Bart. Thank you for all you share with us. Very appreciated.
Re the above, can you explain what beliefs you had and other Christian scholars now have? Your explanations re viewing Jesus as thinking of himself as an apocalyptic prophet have made a lot of sense to me, plus realising how unreliable the NT is, and seeing theological progression through the later gospels etc. I can see people choosing to continue to believe in God, but taking the Bible very loosely/metaphorically.. but struggle to see how people stay Christian in the sense of believing Jesus is God. Can you explain more please on Christian scholars’ beliefs/your previous beliefs.
Am very grateful you give us chance to ask questions and all the time you give up,
Best regards
Christine
Oh, I think I see what you’re asking this time. I myself am not a Christian, so I do not have any traditional theological beliefs. I think Jesus was a human teacher who was crucified for calling himself the future king of the Jews; but I don’t think he was the Son of God, in part because I dn’t believe in God. When I was a Christian but also a historical scholar, I thought Jesus revealed God in ways that can help us understand better his nature, purpose, and will, and I wanted to live accordingly. I still try to live the Christian life, but I don’t believe in the Christian theological message.
Thanks so much for your reply, glad I posted twice by mistake!
So would you say that yourself (while still a Theist) and other historical scholars moved to a belief that Jesus was human rather than divine, but revealing aspects of God’s nature etc as you describe… and the OT similarly revealing God in some ways…. and perhaps applying this to other religions too and not staying with Judeo-Christian being the only truth etc..? But perhaps particularly trying to follow Jesus in his moral teaching? Particularly interested as you mentioned friends who were still Christian pastors but with now a different belief approach. Am myself Agnostic Atheist at moment after deconstruction of my faith last few years…. but finding it hard as part of an evangelical Anglican church with my believing husband. And no longer praying at home with him is hard.. I think I need to become more metaphorical.
Thank you for the patience with the questions…
Metaphor is a good way to approach it! Yes, I began to think that these texts and stories were insightful into reality and that what we called God was somehow connected with ultimate reality.
It is my struggle as well, and the struggle of many christians. I just left christianity after almost 30 years being a born again, pretty radical christian (I am 50 now). The process of leaving took a year. A shock for many christians who knew me as a devout christian.
It had been much easier to remain christian because my wife, family, friends and almost my entire social life are devout christians. I loose a lot, but I can’t say one thing while believing the other thing. I went to church with my family once per Sunday to satisfy my wife, but since we have online church services because of covid, (you can visit the service with only 30 people, so once per month when it is your turn), I quit going to church.
My wife has her doubts, too, but doesn’t dare to think about this. The price is too high, so it is easier to find excuses. That happens with many, many christians. It is easier to believe that we are too ignorant to understand suffering. Then, we can stay who we are in our social life.
Dr Ehrman, I’m a new-comer to the Blog but I’ve been an avid follower and reader of your books for some time. Although no longer a fundamentalist I am not an Atheist as I thus far personally find it hard to deny the existence of intelligent design. (I think it’s possible that the mechanism of evolution has been confused with the cause) Regarding suffering, I’ve thought of the possibility that (as in Job) there is stuff happening in some unseen realm that we just aren’t privy to.. It’s frustrating and unpleasant to be kept in the dark but what if the end actually is so glorious that all the suffering in the past is worth it? (I think CS Lewis also made this point?) Or could God be showing the world how things go when we don’t do it His way?
It’s certainly possible. As with all things that are possible, for me personally, I’d have to think of some reason for considering it probable. I don’t know of any evidence or reason to think it (as opposed to something else), even though it would solve some of the problems. (But so would other views)
In past week, I was listening on Audible, read by author, a 2020 book by RZIM evangelical apologist Amy Orr-Ewing entitled “Where Is God in All the Suffering”. One of her motivations to add her voice to the voluminous literature on the subject, is she felt dissatisfied or even angry with some intellectual theodicies which she feels end up diminishing the poignancy of suffering for sufferers. She writes as someone who have witnessed suffering in her own life – her husband who underwent horrific abuse as a child, her years as a pastor living in deprived areas of London, loss of close friends in prime of their youth including one mother who left behind an infant. Although I do not share her religious perspectives (my outlook is thoroughly naturalistic), I find the book emphatically written, reminding me why people already committed to or are leaning towards the Christian faith, would find their faith helps them to make sense and cope with suffering in their own lives. It is targeted at a lay audience, hence can be completed within few hours. Perhaps you would like to add the book to your reading list when you post once more on suffering.
Interesting. Thanks.
You write that your Christian friends who are Biblical scholars, “moved on from [fundamentalist and evangelical Christianity] long ago, and have a historically-informed faith, not one driven by dogmatic interests.” I can imagine hundreds of differences between what they believe now and what they believed back then. But I’m curious: What do you view as their most drastic change in belief? In other words, what is the most significant thing they NO LONGER believe? What is the most significant thing they NOW believe?
Does the Bible ever explicitly claim that God is omnibenevolent?
Depends which one you talk to. Most commonly the key change involves the inerrancy of the Bible; but often that leads to other changes, such as a belief in hell.
And no, the Bible never uses quite that language per se. But passages do say things like “God is love”
disabledupes{a82cd88ba68f70aeeaf6b48961599304}disabledupes