Loading...I’ve started a short thread on the issue of how the problem of human suffering affected my Christian faith. To explain the matter further, here I quote from a section of my book God’s Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer our Most Important Question: Why We Suffer. The book is mainly about the variety of answers you can find in the Bible about why God allows or even causes suffering. But I begin the book by talking about why it has long been such an important issue to me personally
Human Suffering and How It Impacted My Christian Faith
Eventually, I felt compelled to leave Christianity. I did not go easily. On the contrary, I left kicking and screaming, wanting desperately to hold on to the faith I had known from childhood and had come to know intimately from my teenage years onward. But I came to a point where I could no longer believe. It’s a very long story, but the short version is this: I realized that I could no longer reconcile the claims of faith with the facts of life.
In particular, I could no longer explain how there can be a good and all-powerful God actively involved with this world, given the state of things. For many people who inhabit this planet, life is a cesspool of misery and suffering. I came to a point where I simply could not believe that there is a good and kindly disposed Ruler who is in charge of it.
Faith and Human Suffering Became Tangled
The problem of human suffering became for me the problem of faith. After many years of grappling with the problem and trying to explain it, some of the pat answers seemed charming for their simplicity. While others were more sophisticated and nuanced reflections of serious philosophers and theologians. After considering the alleged answers and continuing to wrestle with the problem for about nine or ten years ago I finally admitted defeat.
I came to realize that I could no longer believe in the God of my tradition and acknowledged that I was an agnostic. I don’t “know” if there is a God; but I think that if there is one, he certainly isn’t the one proclaimed by the Judeo-Christian tradition. The one who is actively and powerfully involved in this world. So I stopped going to church.
Only on rare occasions do I go to church now. My wife Sarah is a Christian (Anglican), and there have been occasions when I have gone with her. The last time…
In the rest of this post I go on to talk about a time when I came to realize with unusual clarity and sadness that I just could not believe the heart of the Christian message any more. If you want to read the entire post, join the blog. It doesn’t cost much and your entire fee goes to help those in need.
I though this blog was about scholarship (or at least this is what I paid for), not personal issues. Can we at least separate the two and keep a part of the blog as an academic forum, in which you, as a scholar, can impart knowledge? I feel for you, but I’m not sure what exactly you’re trying to achieve. You claim that you have found the solution, agnosticism, but that doesn’t show at all. A solution should make you comfortable and at peace, but you are nothing like that, you constantly need to remind yourself (and unfortunately others) how good a “solution” it is and how lucky you are that you have found it. At times it sounds like you are trying to “convert” others to it too. Why? Like you said, there have been numerous philosophical and theological attempts to answer the theodicy problem. I understand that none of them satisfies you, but it’s very unlikely that you would find one that does here. Or somewhere else, for that matter… Sometime I have the impression that your real problem is that you don’t suffer enough and others do… The solution, like the problem, is within you…
I appreciate your concern. My view is that the problem of suffering is completely central to the Bible and its academic study, even though, unlike some other topics of interest to blog readers (whether Philippians is one letter or two, or whether the the book of Acts is historically accurate; whether the Gospel of Thomas is Gnostic), this one hits home for more people, personally. I certainly don’t want to spend most of the blog on that kind of thing (though some blog members regularly ask me to do so), but an occasional post that addresses teh personal issues certainly seems helpful to a lot of blog users. For those who don’t care — I just suggest skipping those posts!
As to your comments, though, I do indeed wrestle with the problem of suffering as an agnostic, but NOT because I wonder how it can be. I have no questions about that any more. I just find it the most important problem we as humans have to address, and struggle with it in that sense.
I don’t know how many blog members feel the same way as I do, but I very much enjoy that you sometimes include posts/threads like these. For me at least, it speaks to the reasons I care about these topics and issues. My spiritual journey has been similar to yours. It hits home emotionally, yet being able to ask questions, particularly about those areas where I think and feel differently, has been interesting.
I’ve never gotten the impression you intend to (de)convert anyone.
I’m sorry dinkafat’s comment, I don’t mean to defend or offend here, seems unfriendly.
First, Dr. Ehrman is not a database robot with literatures of early Christianity fed into it and is automatically programmed to curate and deliver posts with topics of interest based on search engine optimization. He’s a real human being with real feelings. When posts like this come up, I always get moved beyond words. Because, I think I know what suffering is. In my life I’ve had cops and serious legal issues and given the ways God/Jesus in bible stories intervened, I have prayed until my knees bleed hoping for that miracle! Had I not been deluded, I could’ve smartly avoided getting into trouble in the first place.
In fact, I feel I’m privileged when Dr. Ehrman shares his feelings. A consistent sweeping search in Wikipedia about early Christianity can expand our knowledge about early Christianity far more comprehensively than what Dr. Ehrman can cover through years of blogging but it’s these existential thoughts he shares are invaluable in relation to what we paid for to get to pick his brain. This is my humble opinion. Not aimed at hurting dinkafat or anyone.
Your personal posts are, many times over, the best part of the blog. Please keep it up.
As to the scholarly complaint, the theodicy problem is not just a personal question, but also an academic one. As you point out, attempts to explain how a entirely good AND all-powerful god could allow such suffering engage in circular reasoning and question-begging.
The only logical conclusion is that he/she/it would not.
Bart, thank you for posting this. I agree that it is a central issue of the Bible, and worth the time and effort of a little bit of personal commentary. Unlike dingkafat, I appreciate that overwhelmingly most of what you post is actually about scholarship, and my subscription to the blog is not being wasted if not every single post is precisely scholarship-based.
dingkafat, you say that a “solution” to the problem of suffering should bring one peace. I’m not sure that’s true. Life is full of things I don’t like and can’t change, and I will continue to have negative feelings about them. One of those things, a pretty big one, is the lack of scientific evidence for the existence of any deities. My religion at times brought me great comfort, as well as the promise of life after death. I’m not really at peace with the idea that death is inevitable and final. My feelings don’t change reality.
Bart’s first calling was in telling people the good news he had found, so he is hard-wired to share his views on subjects he feels are important. And it is his blog. So if you don’t like a post, you don’t have to read it. You can get your money’s worth on that visit from the reader’s forum, valuable repository of erudition that it is.
What you do think is irrelevant. The central aim of the blog is to help those in need, to help the poor, the hungry, the homies.
If you needed a scholarship, you should have gone to a school or a university, or wherever the heck you wanted. What use is the knowledge you want to achieve if you’re not even able to listen to others?
“The solution, like the problem, is within you…”
Yeah, please enlighten me!
Perhaps few books have moved me more than “God’s Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Question – Why We Suffer.” I listened to both the audio and read the book, and both experiences were gripping, enthralling, and thought-provoking. I didn’t believe whatsoever that Dr. Ehrman was attempting to convert anybody to his point of view, contrary to dingkafat’s unfounded assertion. Yes, this blog is devoted to New Testament and Early Christianity scholarship, but that doesn’t mean our deepest issues, especially in the context of 2020, cannot be discussed. Scholars have feelings and opinions too, and they should be able to share them.
Of course, I appreciate the scholarship Ehrman provides. I equally appreciate his sharing his own story. I think we actually absorb and learn more in stories than we do in just learning facts.
Bart,
Reading about your anger, frustration, and pain, it’s especially easy to see how the faith of many Jews evolved to the belief in a messiah bringing justice. It’s difficult to even read this blog entry, though I appreciate that you wrote it.
For me the anger and rage moment was when I could no longer deny that Jesus was also just an angry, justice seeking man, who had no intention of starting a new religion. What I’d been taught was lies. Even Jesus personally didn’t do much to relieve the suffering of others, other than offer hope of a better world.
The only conclusion I have is it’s up to us to combat suffering. Possibly that’s the divine intent.
I appreciate it all and thanks.
You simplify things Schweitzer said in his 1906 book that old retired distance runners like me understand. Thanks.
Keep up the good work.
The good news is that things are improving in the world. See Steven Pinker’s The_Better_Angels_of_Our_Nature and Enlightenment Now. The key point to remember is that it has nothing to do with any god and everything to do with human ingenuity.
I appreciate the background posts, and thank you for opening up for us to understand your thoughts on suffering. I was able to go ashore in Indonesia to help with the relief effort after the Tsunami. I was in the US Navy at the time. The destruction was indescribable. The number of dead bodies I saw was too numerous to count. It was the stuff of nightmares. Where was God? I don’t know. Where were humans from multiple countries and military organizations? We were on the ground working hand in hand, sweating in the humidity, covered in Deet making sure that the poor people of Banda Aceh who just had their entire existences uprooted had food and clean drinking water.
Wow. Thanks for passing that along. Yup, that tsunami did the faith in for a lot of people….
Count me among the readers who appreciate the personal stuff.
I’m still waiting for one of the many alleged scholar/believers who still go to church to explain what they do about the part of the service when it’s time to recite the Apostles’ Creed: “I believe …”
Dr. Ehrman, I tend to find your view on suffering closely related to the scholarship of Biblical history. It ties into the human propensity to ignore observable evidence in favor of blind faith, including the faith of those from 2000 years ago. I see the science of psychology at work in human thought, just as relevant today as it was then. Every time I hear a passage of scripture at a funeral for instance, I marvel at the ability of the brain to insulate itself from overwhelming evidence that no loving god could have control over the world as it has always been. Surely the gullibility and baseless beliefs of early Christians have shaped the world today by the influence of their writings and your research brings this to the forefront. I am tempted to forward your post to members of my Christian family to demonstrate why I left the church decades ago, although I know it would not sway them in the slightest. I love them anyway. I am convinced we would all be better off without close-minded religious influence in the world today and I thank you for your occasional and lucid thoughts on the matter.
Your concluding paragraph is succinctly put. Thank you for sharing your very personal insights.
I always enjoy your personal experiences. Given your wide exposure( both personal and academic) to all aspects of Christianity, these experiences are a valid interpretation of Biblical issues. The study of quantum physics, string theory, and other subatomic sciences directly lead to a consideration of how this science affects ontology and the Why of everything. The value of the study of medicine is most useful in its impact of human life.
Bart,
Please don’t let posts like that above ever discourage you from discussing personal issues on the blog. I, for one, and I am sure many others as well, appreciate your candid and heartfelt explanations for how you came to be who you are. I have had to abandon many beliefs that I carried with me for many years. My journey was in many ways similar to your and when I came upon your writings many years ago they gave me comfort that I was not alone in giving up much of what I had once believed. Keep up the good work!
There are at least 17 biblical verses that guarantee that the Christian God will hear your prayer and will grant what you ask.
However, I tend to believe what I see. As Dan Barker says: All you have to do to be certain that the Christian God does not exist is to visit the children’s ward of any hospital. There you will see parents of their terminally ill child praying for God to cure their little one. Those children die with the same statistical frequency as those who are not prayed for. In Barker’s words: There’s nothing that fails like prayer (whether it’s intercessory prayer or petitionary prayer).
From my perspective, I appreciate Bart addressing the problem of evil/pain. While the details regarding interpretation of the Bible are interesting, the problem of evil/pain is at the core of whether God exists and, if so, whether whether the Bible’s characterization of Him is correct. There simply is nothing more important to consider, discuss and/or debate.
Great post! Darwin had the same struggle not understanding why God made a parasite that can blind innocent children.
I too left the faith of my childhood kicking and screaming really missing the social contacts and the hope of a heaven where I could spend eternity with those whom I love. It’s a lot to give up.
Title – Human Suffering and the Christian Faith
For the sake of argument lets agree
>For many people who inhabit this planet, life is a cesspool of misery and suffering.
I know you like one question per post but i hope these 2 are OK
1 . Knowing that the great majority of the human population are believers in a God, what is the best answer to the resolve the situation where these many people live in a cesspool of misery and suffering?
a. following the teachings of Jesus ? or
b. some other philosophy ? cause if this is answer, I would love to hear what it is and whether you really believe it could operate effectively.
2. What exact experience of suffering in this cesspool could not be eliminated, let’s say by 98-99% , with the world universally or largely, embracing Jesus’ teachings?
thanks
I don’t think following Jesus’ teachings will prevent anyone from suffering. It does provide some people with hope in the midst of suffering, though, even though that’s not the same thing… No philosophy will prevent you from losing a loved one, getting cancer, losing all yoru possessions, etc. It can only help you deal with it.
Your honesty and – I’ve always accused you of this – kindness and fairness, are the things that make this ‘light’ or ‘leadership’ here so worthwhile and valuable. Never stop. Sometimes it feels like it makes no difference – ‘No-one ever changes’ – but that’s not true. It’s slow, it’s few, but it’s never ‘no-one.’
We COULD reduce suffering, we COULD share more fairly, we COULD act more intelligently. Why we choose not to is my problem I wrestle with always. What we CAN do is what we do each day – each little thing. We should never ever think, ‘Ah, what difference does it make?’ It makes a difference.
I agree that those who aren’t interested in the problem of suffering should just skip over the handful of Bart’s posts addressing it. I am interested in how he has struggled with it, and I’m reading God’s Problem.
Thank you Bart for this post. My journey away from faith was quite different (more along the lines of neurology, and the “soul” making less and less sense). But, it is refreshing to see someone else’s journey, especially explained so clearly. What I do see common, though, is the reluctance to accept the conclusion, but then after accepting it, finding the realization strong and ending up upset by the message being declared within church.
I tend to think the book of Job may have originally been written as a criticism of God: after Job earnestly pleads for understanding of his suffering God shows up, tells Job that he doesn’t deserve an answer, and leaves Job groveling in the dust. Not a very complimentary portrayal of God. Do you think the fairy tale ending was added later to correct this, and make God seem like a good guy after all?
Yes indeed. The opening part and the ending are in prose, the rest is poetry. They were written by different authors with completely different views of suffering; that ending undercuts almost the entirety of chs. 3-40!
Behold, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and evil. Deuteronomy 30:15
There is both life and death in the Bible. Currently I believe that you have to focus more on life than death. More on good than sin. More on happiness than suffering.
Actually science backs that up: focus more on positive than negative. Science also backs up mediating on loving-kindness for yourself and all others makes you happier (suffer less).
We may or may not know this. Yet many keep seeking happiness outside of themselves.
I think we would all be happier with equality and worthiness. And we would probably all be wealthier without materialism.
It is a scary god that would require the suffering and sacrifice of a son to pay for other people’s sins. We were all born with the will too live and goodwill. we each were born in heaven on earth. We learned suffering, unworthiness, and sin. It takes daily practice to create ourselves and not accept who many tell us we are.
You may need to write and say your own prayers to focus on life. light. good. love. kindness, etc.
Professor Ehrman, Have you read Jack Miles’ book “God a Biography”? This book, along with some of your books that I’ve read, has profoundly influenced my thinking about god. Miles takes seriously all words God speaks (or doesn’t speak), all his recorded actions with the Hebrews as a group and with individuals. The resulting images of the Old Testament god are widely inconsistent, even contradictory— not the loving, caring god you choose to remember as one who cared about human suffering and tried to alleviate it. That image is certainly there, but is far from the dominant one. The god you would like is not one convincingly portrayed in the Old Testament. Jesus does refine and narrow the OT god images to one who cares and heals. However, even those images are not always consistent; think sheep and goats.
Please tell us: what would your idealized god say and do to right the human misery and suffering in the world today?
No, I haven’t read it, but I know it has really affected a lot off people. If there were a God, the way he would make right all that is wrong is by eliminating the massive, horrible suffering in the world. He’s going to do it in heaven, according to Christian belief; so it’s hard to see why he can’t or wouldn’t want to do it on earth.
Prof Ehrman,
Please have you read Dan Barker’s God, the most unpleasant character. Do you think it a good source for coming to knowledge of the ‘God character’ in the OT? Your scholarly opinion on his work will be appreciated.
Haven’t read it, sorry to say.
I was raised as a fundamentalist Christian. I find the problems with historical accuracy and lack of internal consistency in the Bible are causing me to lose my faith completely. It is difficult for me understand how one can hold onto the Christian faith without believing in an inerrant Bible. The question of suffering has always bothered me as well but it wasn’t until I saw the major issues with the text that the whole thing fall apart for me. I will never be an atheist though because of complexity of the universe. I’ve just come to think that the all powerful, all knowing , all loving God that I was taught to believe it doesn’t exist. My question is this. Is the Bible consistent in teaching that God is all powerful, all loving, and all knowing…in your opinion?
No, I don’t think so, not at all.
Tending to faith makes you deal with adversity. Romans 5; 1-5 helped our family tremendously deal with the suffering and emotional pain of the news of our son being diagnosed with cancer, just short of his fifth birthday. Doubt is a human condition and hope is the bridge between doubt and faith. Numerous times I prayed like the father in Mark 9; 24, ” I believe, help my unbelief”. To your post, ” and even though I had once “known” and been satisfied with these answers, I was satisfied no longer”. I must ask, what satisfies you today,besides eat, drink and be merry ? I don’t mean this sarcastically, but considering past human endeavor, suffering/poverty continues in half the world or more today without any relief in sight. What possible response would alleviate this, except a collective universal desire to accomplish it ?
I’m so sorry to heave about your son. I can’t think of anything worse. I find most of my personal fulfillment in simple pleasures — spending time with my wife, going for walks, seeing my kids and grandkids, doing my research, writing, giving talks, reading for great fiction, hiking, watching sports (I never watch TV), listening to great music and on and on. I also find fulfilment in helping others enjoy life, and doing things to help those in need. Some people get relief from suffering, and if more people were committed, e.g., to end poverty,the world would be so much a better place. But, instead, so many people just don’t give a damn.
A tendency perhaps to a contradiction Bart?
“I also began to see that the Bible did not have a single view about much of anything”
“ ..there is a good and all-powerful God in charge of the world, who answers prayer, who intervenes to help people when they are in need (isn’t that, at the end of the day, the message of most of the entire Bible?).”
Might I propose that your second observation might more accurately be rephrased as “there is a good and all-powerful God who created the world; who hears the cries and complaints of the suffering, shares their rage at suffering, and responds in support of those who act together to challenge suffering”?
This certainly is not an ‘solution’ to theodicy; it does not offer ‘comfort and peace’ – rather, it sanctifies not being in comfort and peace while a world of suffering remains unchallenged. Nor, certainly, is it the “message of most of the entire Bible”. And an agnostic may well observe that, empirically, it is not obviously true. But I would hazard the speculation that a similar Biblical understanding underlay the Christmas Eve petitions at Chelmsford Cathedral.
I don’t see a contradiction. “Most of the Bible” has one view, other parts of the Bible have other views. That’s why the Bible “does not have a single view.” And no, I do not agree that your rephrasing is at all the teaching of most of the Bible. God wasn’t enraged at the the murder of all those people in Jericho in Joshua 6, just to pick an example out of many.
Related to this topic, a natural question comes to my mind: doesn’t gnosticism directly “solve” the issue of suffering? Human Suffering exists because the material world we live in isn’t God’s creation, but the product of a lesser deity; and knowledge is required for our souls to escape suffering. In this sense, wouldn’t gnostic christianity address your concerns?
Yes it does. I don’t buy that solution either, but it is absolutely meant to be a solution to the problem.
I have absolutely no problem with you expressing your personal views. I think a lot of us are wrestling with the same issues. Besides, accurate scholarship reveals how vain is the hope of divine intervention. We have to cope with the results of that accurate scholarship. How do you respond when the comforting illusion is unmasked and exposed?
I only know how *I* responded!
The anthropologist Joseph Henrich, doing fieldwork among a tribe in the Peruvian Amazon, describes encounters with Christian missionaries there. They brought with them radios, antibiotics, etc. to share with the people there. The anthropologist observes that the missionaries were using the prestige derived from these artifacts of their culture to convert the Amazonians. The Christians would probably deny that they were using these gifts to entice people to convert, and the converts themselves would certainly not say that that they became Christians because of radios and antibiotics.
People join or leave a religion for complex psychological reasons of which they may not be fully or consciously aware. I suspect that you overemphasize the problem of suffering in your deconversion, in part because it makes for a simpler story. It also makes you the hero in your own narrative (which we ALL want to be). You left your religion because of your infinite compassion for the suffering of others. I’m not saying that makes it untrue, but the self-flattering aspect ought to give one pause.
I think it is entirely appropriate. Many things have to be taken in context in this world. Since you are frequently attacked for your motives, then certainly your story is appropriate. I think many on the same journey as you appreciate it even if they aren’t scholars.
I personally have used it. I’ve had people falsely claim to me that “Ehrman believes” this or that trying to discredit your motives when you have clearly stated here and in books many times your position. Because you shared it was easy to point out that they weren’t actually READING what you said but just parroting critics.
Here’s my two penn’orth, Bart. Suffering in the world, however one defines it, is growing less common; this despite a huge increase in population. Deaths from war and other violence; deaths from disease; malnutrition; famine, etc, are all reducing. Slavery and treating women as chattels are on the wane. Life expectancy, education and quality of life for most people have improved dramatically. Tell me a metric that points in the opposite direction. We in the affluent west are now reduced to inventing things to feel guilty about. Please read Factfulness by the late Hans Rosling or Enlightenment Now by Steven Pinker for all the supporting data. We live in a comparative golden age, if we did but know it. In what other era would anybody like to have been an ordinary working person? Nothing to do with God, in my view (I cannot recall a time I wasn’t agnostic) at least directly but just a lucky coming together of ideas: personal liberty; free market capitalism; representative democracy; and, yes, Christian values. Before the Age of Reason life for most was indeed, ‘Solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short.’ Would anybody like to go back to that?
I suppose there are more *numbers* of people suffering now, than, say, 200 years ago, but probably a smaller percentage. Each of us in most instances is far better off than our remote ancestors, at any period of time.
Dr Ehrman. I appreciate the personal nature of your post. I think ones personal beliefs affects how they read the Bible. Its hard to separate the two. The way I see it, is if God wanted to solve all the problems, he/she/it would solve them or there is no God. Either way, its up to us to do the best we can.
I do have a unrelated question. I wanted to see what your thoughts were on 1Cor 11:27-34. How were the the Christians using the bread and wine in a unworthy manner? Were they going back to their pagan ways. Treating Christ like Dionysus? Since Eleusis was close by Corinth. Were the pagans now Christians mixing the two beliefs?
It’s usually thought that the “Lord’s Supper” at the time was a shared meal. The problem was that the wealthy folk were coming early and eating and drinking a lot, and then the poor folk (including slaves), when they turned up, had little left. Paul thought that was very bad, precisely the opposite of the point of the meal.
Hi Dr. Ehrman! This is the theodicy I am familiar with (Jehovah’s Witnesses): The world is caught in a struggle between good and evil. The creator God Jehovah is all good, but there is the evil adversary Satan who has challenged God’s authority. While Jehovah would be powerful enough to defeat Satan instantly, Jehovah is really concerned about his reputation among the angels, and simply wiping out the adversary would be too easy. So instead, Jehovah allows Satan to rule the world so that it becomes plain for everyone (angels, humans) to see that Satan is incapable of doing a good job. Once it has been satisfactorily proven that under Satan’s rule, the world is a horrible place, Jehovah will intervene through Jesus and will remove Satan from power. This is supposed to happen soon (Armageddon). You did allude to this theodicy in your book “God’s Problem”, but I think you merely stated that God is allowing Satan to do evil “for some mysterious reason”. But you did not put forward any explanation for why God would allow it. Are you familiar with explanations such as the one suggested by JWs?
Yup, I’m familiar with it; and have never found it very convincing myself…
No, of course, I’m not saying that it’s convincing. It just seemed to me like an omission in your book. If a believing JW read your book (which, admittedly, is not very likely), they would probably think, ‘Ha, Dr. Ehrman, gotcha! WE know the mysterious reason why God is permitting Satan to do evil.’ As a recovering JW (I was born into the religion, so I never chose to join them, and JWs are really a cult), I would have liked to see your book offer some counterpoints to this particular theodicy, which is central to JW dogma.
I assume that aside from JWs, some other fundamentalist groups (7th Day Adventist, LDS church, other evangelicals?) hold a similar belief? For example, I just googled a newspaper article (https://www.fayobserver.com/entertainment/20170316/ruler-of-this-world-god-or-satan) in which a Methodist pastor makes the same point.
Was there any particular reason why you did not address this specific theodicy in greater detail?
Ah, I get your question now. I didn’t deal with it because I was talking only about views presented in the Bible, not views of certain denominations today or answers to theodicy in general.
Thank you Dr Ehrman. I do find your posts on suffering immensely powerful and intellectually stimulating. I do appreciate everything you are saying (I have read ‘God’s Problem’ – ironically during a difficult period in my life, which made its point all the more immediate and relevant) but, strangely, I have not found the existence of suffering as particularly challenging to what remains of my religious faith and I can’t really say why that is. Perhaps (and I know this is inadequate as an answer) I see suffering as an inevitable part of life, like the weather, which I guess owes more to Stoicism than Christianity. But I do enjoy (not the right word I know) these posts as your arguments are very cogent and do comprehensively deal with all the religious counter arguments, some of which I hadn’t heard before reading your books. Thanks again.
Now I have had a eureka moment! lol the faith you had was based on several false premises, all of which, according to you, you now realize are not taught in the nt I.e. salvation is by faith alone (you claim in Paul’s churches baptism was the point in which a person was saved), the inerrancy of scripture, modern day miracles (tongues etc) which by your own admission were, in your experience, an emotionally induced state, and finally a widespread abuse of context about major eschatological and apocalyptic statements made in the Bible which have widely used to show an erroneous premillennial doctrine in which Jesus returns and rights all the wrongs in the world. Dr. E, it’s no wonder when you seriously visited the question of why is there suffering in the world your world was rocked, after all, it was on shaky foundation. What if in real life Deuteronomy 28 doesn’t always work out that if you serve God you will prosper here on earth? The writer of Ecclesiastes thinks it doesn’t. Did he not struggle with suffering as well? The NT doesn’t promise anything here on earth but blood toil sweat and tears says Sir Winston right?
You probably shouldn’t decide what someone else’s faith was based on until you’ve had a long talk with them.
I sincerely apologize if i misrepresented your former beliefs (but i do not think i did; you’ve written quite a bit, i’ve read quite a bit of it for several years now… but i reckon a man cant know John Lennon just because he has heard all his albums, so touché) and i regret that i have not had such a long conversation.
Anyway, about Deuteronomy vs Ecclesiastes/Job. I have a theory that the theology of Deuteronomy predates BOTH the theology of Job and Ecclesiastes. IMHO, Deuteronomy states very plainly, that if you serve God faithfully you will be blessed comin and goin so to speak. If not, you will die. (Notably not you will go to heaven or hell, after all its Old Testament). But the writer of Ecclesiastes says it sometimes just doesn’t work that way. Its redactor essentially says “yeah yeah, no matter, serve God anyway” in the epilogue of the book. Job = bad things happen to good people. Don’t question God, and he’ll settle the score at his leisure.
Do you think Job and Ecclesiastes are reactionary theology toward Deuteronomy?
Yes, certainly toward the view in Deuteronomy (whether they had Deuteronomy specifically in mind, I don’t know; the prophets have the same basic view, e.g.)
Dr. Ehrman, I just joined your blog and this is my first post. You approach ideas fairly and consistently. And you are actively trying to help people who suffer. Those reasons are why I joined. I am a christian right now, but I am at that stage where is very hard to sustain that the inerrancy of Bible and its claim as the authoritative word of God. I became very curious learning more about you, the person behind the books (that I have yet to read) and your reason for leaving Christianity… so thank you so much for opening your heart and writing this post. About this topic, you mentioned once that the apocalyptic theodicy discourage christians to act because its implicit pessimism regarding the “current age”. I agree 100%. I would add that it also leads to a hidden egocentrism.
But I don’t think that is Christianity it self that fails: you might know more than me all the biblical exhortations to help the less fortunate: passages like James 2:14-26, Luke 6:46-49 among others. I think the problem is the unbalanced preaching, lack of individual reading (ignorance) mixed with apathy and laziness.
THanks, and welcome to the blog!
I appreciate your scholarship and your humanity in striving to contribute to the relief of suffering. Blessings of the season to you.
good and courteous reply to dingkafat, unless they are very new to blog they would know the diversity and realize not every post is particularly interesting to every reader. does every one appeal directly to me? no, but by far the vast majority do, and irregardless the money is going to good works
Hello Professor Ehrman. You weren’t attracted by the notion that this world is evil and the realm of an inferior god, then?
Not a bit — I really don’t think there’s a god of any sort…
Suffering have for me been a lifelong companion, which I have not been able to avoid. And it gives me no comfort in any way I percieve the reality, with or without the idea of God. Beside that, I can’t avoid the fact that everything is way too complex, both from a single cell and inward, and everything and outward in the universe, and even beyond our felt dimentions of reality to the dimentions given within theoretical physics. This avoid me to rule out the sense of greatness and a binding force.
Anyway, none of that gives me, like you, any comfort in respect of the fact that we are surrounded by suffering. It doesn’t help me rejecting /disapproving the existence of God or not, either I percieve God as an external /extraterrestial entity, or if God was within and the creations is emination of the devine oneness.
Adding God into this equation where man’s suffering doesn’t derive from his sins but from the maker of his imperfections, just makes God more paradoxical, and seems not to give any answers.
Regardless of the perseption of existence, I have to accept that the suffering is a fact,with or without God. Maybe, if the Nobel prize winning quantum physics (natural science) claim about the real essens of reality is within consiousness, are true, I sense that the efforts fighting suffering have to start (and perhaps ends) with ourself.
I am very pleased that you have written on this subject. Reading your book, God’s Problem, was an important read for me, learning that I am not alone in my thoughts about God and suffering. I am still in the screaming and kicking stage. But the point of my post is to thank you for your writings on this subject and openness in sharing. I certainly don’t see a solution to be within one’s own self. The topic of suffering needs to be addressed and I find that most Christians skirt around it.
Sorry; I meant when you were considering “the answers people have held on to for centuries”…
as a Christian myself I want to thank you for this beautiful blog, your academic stuff is fab, but I especially enjoy this more personal stuff. I’ve found the shape of history given by both Christian and non Christian scholars so similar, i think it just comes down to point of view with the supernatural stuff, which i think to some is frightening-its uncertain
wufats Good job you! Thank you! wu aka bernard (pronounced like Bernadette but without the ‘ette’.
Again, thanks.
And it brought tears to my eyes as I sat with a bowed head, listening and thinking. But these were not tears of joy. They were tears of anger and frustration. If God had come into the darkness with the advent of the Christ child, bringing salvation to the world – why is the world in such a state? Why doesn’t he enter into the darkness again? Where is the presence of God in this world of pain and misery? Why is the darkness so overwhelming? — Quote from the post.
I am interested in the anger more than the frustration, because the source of the frustration is obvious; the object of the anger, later called rage, not so much. At whom are your angry? Certainly not a non-existent god. Would it be the pastors and teachers who once induced in you a belief in what turned out to be false? They didn’t cause the suffering either.
I think in that context at that time was angry at the traditional Christian understanding of God — that it made claims about a divine being that would be so glorious if true but obvoiusly, to me, were not true. These were claims and beliefs I grew up on, and I felt deep frustration at the reminder they simply weren’t true. I’m really not angry much any more. Certainly not at God, since I don’t believe there is a God.
How can God exist if the world is full of suffering? It’s a very difficult question to answer, even for believers.
I think I was about 12 when I decided that conservative Lutheran theology was self-contradictory. The problem of evil, of course. Your post described an awakening very similar to the one I had back then. But I have never felt anything like anger, resentment, or even mild annoyance over against the organizations that promote prayer, hymn-singing, the congregating of the like-minded (like-professing, I mean), etc. The word limit causes me to be cryptic: perhaps,in the language-game called Lutheranism, self-contradiction does not violate the rules as it does in the language-game called Science.
Let us not forget the suffering of animal, which by weight of sheer numbers probably dwarf the human suffering.
Dear Bart,
Since you broached the subject of “thinking about” your “Rage File” ( 12-6-2020), I was wondering if you would be willing to comment on what it does for you personally to keep and maintain such a file as this?
It seems to be quite disturbing for you.
Thanks.
I guess it doesn’t do much for me, since I am not remembering ever saying anythgn about it on the blog and am trying, this second, to figure out where I might be keeping such a thing! It was only when I looked again at the post you were referring to that I realized you must be referring to a rage file connected with my view of suffering! I probalby shojld rename it my “Sadness file,” since mainly I”m said about suffering, not enraged — except when it is caused by people and their governments.
If God existed, maybe He doesn’t “owe” us a suffering free existence as a result of personal consequence. But what I would expect, not in an arrogant or demanding way, but as an expression of logic, would be that God’s nature be manifest in the world He created. We are told justice, grace, and mercy are intrinsic qualities of God, yet they are in scarce commodity in what is claimed to be His revelation (both natural and scriptural). So much so that the ancients had to compensate for this by kicking the can down the road to a “Kingdom to Come” where God really was in charge and we would be out of reach of evil. It was the best science they had I guess. It is however lacking and the theistic compensations for this run from dismissive to laughable.