This first paragraph is repeated from my earlier posts: I have now finished with my final edits for my book How Jesus Became God. In the process of doing these final edits, I have cut out large sections of my Preface and the Introductions of four of my chapters and replaced them with other, hopefully better, sections. But I really like the old ones as well. So, since they won’t appear in print, I decided to post them here as a record of what almost was. The all involve anecdotes about my past. In most instances (the Introductions to the four chapters), these were narratives related to my “deconversion” from Christianity. My editor and I agreed that the reading public has heard enough about all that, and there’s only so much more that could still be interesting to them. And so I have replaced those anecdotes with other things. But I will present them here, anyway, for your reading pleasure or displeasure.
The following is drawn from my old chapter 9. This will be the last post in this series of Prefaces that didn’t make it into the book.
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I have mentioned that for years before becoming an agnostic I was a liberal Christian with a “demythologized” understanding of the Christian message. I did not believe in an actual Virgin Birth, or in the miracles that Jesus allegedly performed, and I was not at all sure what I thought about a physical resurrection of Jesus. But I did see the value of these stories as “myths” that conveyed views of the world and human existence that I subscribed to. They affirmed that Jesus was a special person, a religious genius, whose message on a very deep level – though not on the surface – was in some sense “right.” There really are forces of evil in the world, and those who stand on the side of what is true and good will fight against them.
It was not only the stories about Jesus that were “mythical.” So too was much of the rest of the Bible. There was no real Adam and Eve or Garden of Eden or six-day creation. The universe came into being as the result of the Big Bang 13.8 billion years ago and as humans we are very much late comers on the scene of life on earth; the stories in Genesis are conveying deeper truths about what it means to be human and how humans should be caretakers of the earth; they are not history lessons. So too with the conquest of Canaan, when the children of Israel slaughtered all the opposition in order to inherit the “Promised Land.” It didn’t really happen – it was a legendary account meant to convey deeper lessons about how the Jewish people were chosen and empowered by God. Nor was the book of Revelation literally true; it was not, for example, laying out a blueprint of what would happen in our very near future. It was a book meant to convey a message of hope to those who were in despair over the course of affairs in this world and the evil forces who afflict suffering on those who side with God.
I know of many people today who are liberal Christians of a similar mode, who do not take the Bible literally but still see it as a profound book filled with mythological views that they resonate with and perspectives that they try to live by. And I have absolutely no problem at all with people who have such views. (I do, obviously, have a problem with fundamentalists and others who take the Bible literally as a divinely inspired revelation from God to be believed in all its details; in my view, people like that almost always have their own religious, social, and political agendas and – despite their protests – simply use the Bible as a way of enforcing their views on others.) In particular, I have no interest at all in converting sincere and thoughtful Christians (or Jews, or Muslims, or whatever) to my agnostic point of view.
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Amen! Amen! Amen! Unfortunately, you have clearly cut the best portions of your book. These five posts have been the best things you have written and I have read a lot of your writing. Thanks so much for sharing these five posts with us.
The path that you describe is very, very familiar. It is my path, without the textual criticism expertise, but I am surprised that you have not been more influenced by three other things as well:
1. The harm that is often done by Christians in the name of religion.
2. All of the divine and divinely-ordered killing in the Bible, especially in the Old Testament.
3. That some of the teachings and described actions of Jesus do not seem all that kind.
Ron, you mentioned yesterday that you were compiling a list of God either killing people or ordering them killed in the Bible. When you are done, you should buy “Drunk With Blood: God’s killings in the Bible” by Steve Wells and compare his list to yours. I read the book after someone recommended it on this blog. Wells cites and discusses 135 separate incidents. He has a wonderfully dry sense of humor – you will enjoy it!
Have you head of Fowler’s stages of faith development.
Stage 3 – “Synthetic-Conventional” faith (arising in adolescence; aged 12 to adulthood) characterized by conformity to religious authority and the development of a personal identity. Any conflicts with one’s beliefs are ignored at this stage due to the fear of threat from inconsistencies.
Stage 4 – “Individuative-Reflective” faith (usually mid-twenties to late thirties) a stage of angst and struggle. The individual takes personal responsibility for his or her beliefs and feelings. As one is able to reflect on one’s own beliefs, there is an openness to a new complexity of faith, but this also increases the awareness of conflicts in one’s belief.
Stage 5 – “Conjunctive” faith (mid-life crisis) acknowledges paradox and transcendence relating reality behind the symbols of inherited systems. The individual resolves conflicts from previous stages by a complex understanding of a multidimensional, interdependent “truth” that cannot be explained by any particular statement.
Stage 6 – “Universalizing” faith, or what some might call “enlightenment”. The individual would treat any person with compassion as he or she views people as from a universal community, and should be treated with universal principles of love and justice.
Yup, it was standard reading in seminary back in the late 70s and early 80s.
Back in your liberal-Christian days, do you think you would have fitted well in John Spong’s church? He is as theologically liberal as a Christian can get. After all, he has in effect renounced every Christian creed or radically reinterpreted them, yet he remains as committed to the church as any Christian leader can be.
Dale Martin probably describes himself as a liberal Christian. But he still held to the orthodox creeds. In a discussion with Mike Licona, Dale Martin outlined his commitment to the Church Creeds and the divinity of Jesus, even though he cannot affirm the divinity of Jesus on historical grounds.
By “demythologize”, do you mean in the Bultmannian sense? Bultmann demythologized Christianity yet remained committed to the church.
YEs, I would have fit right in. And yes, I demythologized in a Bultmannian sense (though with a different result; I wasn’t interested in Heidegerian existentialism)
The conclusion of your personal beliefs is that Jesus was “in touch” with someone who doesn’t actually exist (God), and he technically was a… Son of No One 🙂 He was lying, either consciously or unconsciously. In the first case he was a liar, in the second case he may have suffered a kind of mental disease, believing that God appointed him for a sort of mission, announcing a Kingdom that doesn’t exist and will never come. Sad enough, all first believers were either followers of a mad man (best case) or a deceiver (worst case). So, being Christian means first of all to believe that Jesus was sane and wasn’t lying (although he may have been wrong, or misinterpreted, on some things).
I think you may focus, in one of your next books, on this necessary conclusions that may surely shake the faith of many 😀
I don’t think he was lying, any more than anyone who believes in God and thinks they are in a relationship with him — that is, most Americans — is lying (or certifiably crazy!)
Dr. Ehrman, you’re pure fun! 😀
However, Jesus didn’t simply “believed” in God and prayed him, he behaved as a sort of Apocalyptic prophet (I guess you can agree ;-)) whose mission was to announce the beginning of a salvation time, a Kingdom to come where he may have even played a quite “important” role.. So, he had to be far more crazy than any WASP 😀
Well, the baptist preacher up the street from me thinks God speaks through him too, but I’m not urging we commit him…. (Though now that I think about it….)
Bart, I hope your fishing trip was relaxing, enjoyable, and that you were able to appreciate the beauty of our world…and that your mom is doing well and enjoyed the trip.
Since you are laying yourself exposed, I have been dealing with similar issues for many years, and, as with you, I think I have come to a resolution, so I would like to tell of my decision.
This will be very short.
A couple of years ago I tore my leg open with a circular saw making bird houses. One more inch to the left and I would have cut through my artery and would not be writing this today (and even more to the left and I could join a boys choir).
Long story short…..when I got to ER the clerk came to my bed to get info and asked me my religion. I could not give an answer. I’ve spent most of my life studying this and I could not give an intelligent answer.
That has bothered me.
After doing much intense study (with you, and Tabor, and Spong and many more, even on the other end of the spectrum) I have decided that the only way I can see myself using some form of terminology is…. “Christian Humanist” … that sounds very mushy but it is true.
1. I come from a Christian background (Episcopal). I did not grow up Muslim or Sikh or Native American or any other form a religious background. I do not reject anyone religion but my experience was Christian.
2. I do not believe in fairy tales and I am totally committed to the findings of science and the the use of reason to discover truth so I’m as far from Fundamentalism as you can get.
3. I have mentioned before that the only thing that I know is that I don’t know. That would make me agnostic…not atheist. I am open to the existence of an infinite source (even a personal one) but I am a finite being and I will never be able to understand infinite things. Perhaps Jesus is the closest I can get to that kind of understanding.
4. I share this planet with other human beings, and all of us are terribly flawed, but I do believe in free will (that we can make intelligent choices) and that this sorry mess our world has be in for millennia can be reversed through human actions (not by God’s intervention).
The problem of suffering is not with God; it is with us. We can make it worse or we can make it better, but we can’t do it unless we all do it together. Am I a utopianist?…I guess so. I am a humanist and believe in humanity’s ability to change.
So, I can say that my direction for the rest of my life is Christian Humanism (with a bit of Buddhist meditation thrown in).
I feel comfortable with this and you have had a great influence on me getting my ducks lined up…thank you so very much.
Oh…I lied…this wasn’t short ….blessings , Todd
Catch anything good?
Lots of trout!!
Great post, Mr. Ehrman. So many of us out there resonate with your story. Thanks for sharing once again. I’ve developed quite an interest in the Bible and the history of early Christianity in recent years (thanks to people like yourself, Mark Goodacre etc.). And as such, I love discussing it with anyone keen to listen, which, of course, mainly happens to be believing Christians. But I always find it quite amusing when they realise I’m a non-believer – they often say something like “Would you waste your time with the Bible / Christian history if you’re a non-believer – don’t you have something better things to do?”. I always chuckle when I hear this because there’s the hidden implication there that even they – as believing Christians – find the Bible / Christian history all rather dull haha. And it concerns me that someone like myself, whose interest in the topic is just a hobby, really, often knows more about the texts than the people who profess to believe it is the inspired word of a divine being! Go figure.
I think I understand your move away from Christianity, and I agree that it is perfectly logical given the problem of evil and your recognition that so much of the Bible cannot be taken literally. But is does raise another issue – all those years that called yourself a Christian and I presume you prayed and felt God speaking to you, answering prayer and guiding your life; do you think that was just delusional? I ask because I know many intelligent people who are very committed Christians, and it very puzzling at times when they sincerely believe for example that God is intervening in the world to answer their prayers, and I thought you might have some reflections on this. I know Freud and others have theories about why we cling to these myths, but what do you think about yourself? Thx
I guess I wouldn’t say “just delusional,” or rather would ask “delusional” as compared to *what*? My sense is that none of us experiences reality directly, but always in a mediated form — all the time, and in every way. My mediation was simply different then from what it is now.
We are all just experiencing our own mediated reality? Do you really believe that? Sounds like Nietzsche – if what we call truth is not really truth but just appears that way to us…then the truth we gather over our lives dies with us and the effort was futile. Not very motivating for a scholar I would think? What would be the point of writing a book for others to read, just to share your personal view of reality for entertainment value? Why would you make an argument about the problem of evil and the existence of God, if not trying to make an reach a conclusion about what’s really real (not just what is real to yourself).
I don’t mean to be presumptuous, but it sounds to me that your mediation stance is a way for you to avoid offending your Christian friends. (I won’t be offended though if you decide not to post this)
Yes, there is no way you can experience reality directly. It has to come through your senses or your mind — and these are mediators. That’s why some people see colors and others don’t (for example). I’ve never used this view on my Christian friends — it’s never come up!
My mind is having trouble mediating that idea. Maybe I’ll go for a beer and give it some time. Thanks for your response, very thought-provoking as always.
Beer generally helps mediation…..
are most biblical scholars quite liberal in there views and approaches to Christianity? this is certainly the impression i get reading works from yourself, Borg, Crossan, McGrath and others. if so did most start out quite strong in the faith and conservative (one would have to be pretty serious about Christianity to go to bible collage) and then move to the left?
thank you
There is an enormous range of religious, philosophical, and personal views among biblical scholars — it’s no more possible to say if they are “liberal” as a whole than it is to say whether Amerians are “liberal” as a whole. The ones you list are liberal though.
btw how was yr time away with family?
Great!
Bart, you are telling my story. Once you start demythologizing, where do you stop? Thanks for sharing, although I think I agree with your editors; it’s probably a little too personal to belong in a book.
I did however decide to remain an active member of the Episcopal Church for several reasons: I see it a positive force in the community and a counter to the more fundamentalistic churches. I admire the stance it has taken in social justice, my wife was the first female Senior Warden, we have a gay member that was elected to our Vestry and several of my good friends are gay couples, and several Preists I know personaly were active in registering black voters in Selma during the 60s. It has produced religious leaders such as Bishop John A T Robinson, Bishop Pike, and Bishop Spong who encouraged me look beyond tradional orthodoxy. And looking back, many of our best and dearest friends we met through the Church.
First, I’m glad you moderated and posted all the Comments that were left while you were away – I wasn’t sure you would. I enjoy the wide variety of Comments almost as much as I do your posts.
Second, I hope you and your mother caught a lot of trout and had a wonderful time!
Continuing…what you said about the Nicene Creed? I guess you’d now disagree with it on one other point: that Jesus was “buried”! In my youth, Catholics were taught to recite the Apostles’ Creed…and I often think of it. The only phrases I accept as truth (to the extent humans can know anything to be true) are “[Jesus]…suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died…” But I still think it likely he was “buried” (and moved from his first burial site to another one). Also, I incline to belief – though not in the Christian sense – in the very last thing the Apostles’ Creed tells us to believe in: “life everlasting.” I think “everlasting life” may involve multiple incarnations, and eventual (re)absorption into a larger Consciousness.
About the problem of suffering? I’m going way out on a limb here. But I think there are ways in which Mind can influence Matter. And I think it possible that our descendants may evolve into a species whose concerted *good thoughts* will be capable of preventing illness, natural disasters, and outbreaks of violence.
I do think Jesus was buried in some sense — i.e., that his remains were somehow disposed of. I just doubt whether he was given a formal/decent burial by a Jewish leader (Joseph of Arimathea) or anyone else.
On suffering: you *are* a hopeful thinker!
I think there is historical merit to James Tabor’s work with the Talpiot tombs as the burial place of Jesus and his family in Jerusalem on the estate of Joseph of Arimathea. I would like to see more work done there. I know you do not give much credence to this but would like to know your specific reasons sometime.
Bart..
You may not have control over this aspect but any idea whether your publisher will promote the new book via audio format, too?
Thanks.
Jeff
I hope and assume so!
Bart, I think many of us enjoy these personal stories because we’re going through (or have been through) the same journey. I know you’ve written many times about your personal transition, but have you ever written about how you navigated your personal relationships through the transition? Forgive me if this is too personal, but how did you maintain relationships with friends and family through the transition?
Thanks for a great blog.
OK, I may deal with that at some point.
It seems like you have put some version of this in all your books. I understand why your editor wants to exclude now, but I like how you have matured these ideas over the years and am glad you’ve placed the latest incarnation in the blog.
The “Is Faith Possible?” chapter of _Interrupted_ also seems to be a good summary. On that note, there you reference a couple learned friends who still believe. Have they written some material that is accessible to the layman? I would be interested in reading that.
I very much appreciate your work. It has certainly exposed some facts that I always felt were there, but it has certainly shattered some core beliefs, and frankly, leaves the (ex) fundamentalist with no hope. I would like to know of alternative views from authors which don’t deny the facts but still unashamedly call themselves believers.
I’ve asked Dale Martin if he’d be intersted in writing a book for layfolk on just this issue. I think he should!
When I recite the Nicene Creed I sometimes like to think about the probability that there are one or two others in the crowd who are also wondering if they are the lone unbelievers faking as best they can. I continue to fake it for the sake of my family (my wife knows but my children do not). I do not know how long this will be tenable, however. I have been feeling a bit claustrophobic of late.
Hey Bart, when does your book come out?
Looks like end of March.
man I wish sooner…..