I have been discussing the Arian controversy over how to understand the relationship of the Father and the Son – the crucial element in establishing the doctrine of the Trinity. It led to the Council of Nicea. A lot could be, and has been, said about the Council. It is NOT when church Fathers decided which books would be in the New Testament and is NOT when they decided that Jesus was divine (even though that’s what you read in the Da Vinci Code !!). They did not discuss the first issue and everyone at the council already fully believed Christ was God. The question was: in what sense?
Here is what I say about the Council in my book The Triumph of Christianity, in a chapter in which I deal with the emperor Constantine and his involvement with the church after his conversion. I begin by summarizing the two main positions in question – Arius’s view of Christ and his bishop Alexander’s view.
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Arius maintained that Christ, the Logos, could not be equal with God the Father. The Father himself is almighty. There cannot be two beings who are both almighty, since then neither of them is “all” mighty. For Arius, only God the Father is almighty. Originally, in eternity past, God existed alone, by himself. He then, prior to the creation of the universe, begot a Son, a second divine being, who, since he was begotten of God, was secondary and subservient to him, as a son is to a father. This was the Logos, through whom the world was made and who much later took on human form and came into the world in order to bring salvation. The Logos then, is a subordinate divinity who was brought into being at some point: he had not always existed. God the Father is superior to God the Son by an “infinity of glories.”
Arius’s bishop Alexander could not disagree more. He took a hard line that Christ was not subservient to God the Father as a subordinate being. Christ himself had said, “I and the Father are One,” and “If you have seen me you have seen the Father” (John 10:30; 14:9). The two are equal. They are not identical, to be sure: the Son is a separate being from the Father. But they are equally omnipotent and have both existed forever. There never was a time that the Logos did not exist.
Those taking Alexander’s side in the debate could point out that, by definition, if something is perfect it can never change. If something changes, necessarily it becomes either better or worse from the change. But if it becomes better, it was not perfect before; and if it becomes worse, it is not perfect after. Since God is perfect, he can never change. That means he could not become the Father by begetting a Son, since this would involve a change in his status from not-Father to Father. Necessarily, then, God had always been the Father. If he was always the Father, then the Son must always have existed.
Thus, Alexander’s side of the debate maintained that the Son was co-eternal with the Father and all-powerful along with him. He was not merely “like” the Father, of a “similar” kind of divine substance. He was “equal” with the Father, of the “same” substance. In the Greek terms used in these debates, the idea of being of the “same substance” is expressed by the word homoousias. By contrast, the word for “similar substance” is homoiousias. As you can see, they are very similar words, different only with the letter “i”, or in Greek, the iota, in the middle. Some observers have noted that the theological controversy threatening to fracture the church was a debate over an iota.
That is certainly what Constantine personally thought. Because the dispute was causing such turbulence, he felt compelled to intervene, and did so first by writing the two principals a letter. In it he clearly states his ultimate concern, which had never been about theological niceties but about unity: “My first concern was that the attitude towards the Divinity of all the provinces should be united in one consistent view.”[i] Constantine did not care which view emerged from the debate. He simply wanted one side to concede to the other and thereby effect unity. Personally, he indicates, he considers the matter “extremely trivial and quite unworthy of so much controversy.” For him, these are “small and utterly unimportant matters,” involving a “very silly question.” He urges Alexander and Arius to settle the matter between themselves.
They were unable to do so. It is not simply that they were at odds with each other. Both sides had numerous supporters who engaged in vitriolic attacks on the theological ignorance of the other. The debate was racking the church. Constantine decided to intervene in a major way by calling for the first world-wide, or ecumenical, council of bishops to meet and resolve the issue. This was the famous Council of Nicaea of 325 CE, named after the city in Asia Minor where the meeting was held. Later records indicate that some 318 bishops from around the world came to participate, most of them from the eastern provinces (as we have seen, the church was not nearly as well established in the west).[ii]
Constantine himself attended the meeting. He gave the opening address and participated in the discussions. At the end the bishops took a vote. Arius lost. The council devised a creed, a statement of faith that expressed its understanding of the nature of both the Father and the Son, and related important theological matters. Included in the creed were a number of “anathemas,” or “curses” on anyone who took a contrary position. That creed ultimately came to form the basis of the Nicene Creed, still recited in many churches today. At the council, only twenty participants ended up on the Arian side. Constantine pressured the nay-sayers to concede the case, and convinced nearly all of them to do so. The only two recalcitrant bishops – along with Arius himself — were sent into exile.
The council called by Constantine did not finally resolve the matter. Arians continued to press their case and made converts to their cause. Emperors after Constantine – including his own offspring – adopted the Arian view and exercised their authority to cement its stature in the church, even though, as we will see, it eventually lost. Our concern here, however, is with Constantine himself and his relation to the Christian faith. By 325 CE he had learned more about the intricacies of Christian theological discourse than he ever expected. He wanted unity, but he was not willing to impose it by sending troops to de-convert the Arians by the sword. When it came to matters of the church, he believed in persuasion.
[i] The letter is cited in Life of Constantine, 1.64-72.
[ii] For a fuller discussion of the Council, the events leading up to it, the theological issues involved, and the eventual outcome, see my book How Jesus Became God: The Exaltation of a Jewish Preacher from Galilee (San Francisco: HarperOne, 2014), chapter 9.
If I recall correctly, Constantine was sympathetic to the Arian view, but he didn’t about that so much as about getting a unified church.
The Nicene Creed uses the word “begotten.” Doesn’t that imply coming into existence at some point instead of existing eternally? Can you clarify, what was their understanding of “begotten?”
I appreciate your pointing out that “the church was not nearly as well established in the west.” I guess I always assumed that the western churches weren’t well represented at Nicea because the Council was taking place on the other side of the world. Any thoughts about why the church developed more slowly than the churches in the east?
I had the same question. In the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer, one version says ‘Eternally begotten’; the other version says ‘Only begotten’. How do these fit with the Alexandrian argument?
I suppose they are stressing different things. One is the eternal nature of the son (he never came into being at a point of time) and the other his uniqueness (there is no one else on his level). Or so I suppose!
I believe that many of the Germanic tribes, that later invaded the Roman Empire, had been converted to Arian Christianity. Alaric the Goth, who sacked Rome in 410 was an Arian Christian, but this still prevented him from destroying Christian churches when his men rampaged through the Eternal City.
Dr. Ehrman,
What would you speculate would have happened if Eusebius et.al. had said that there just isn’t enough information to decide these issues one way or another?
I think people would have been amazed, since its not the sort of neutral judgment found among theologians at the time on such a key question!
Now I want a song about the Council of Nicaea, called “Nicene” and with the melody of Dolly Parton’s “Jolene”.
Oddly, I prefer Mindy Smith’s version. But it’s probably because I didn’t grow up with Dolly.
Any thoughts on what made the Alexander view more popular than the Arius view among the bishops? Was it more consistent with the New Testament? Was it viewed as easier to derive the trinity from it so that monotheism could be maintained?
I suppose they went for the more exalted view that glorified CHrist more….
At least from St. Athanasius’ perspective, Arianism threatened the very nature of Christian salvation. See his ”Four Discourses Against the Arians,” Bk. II, ch. 41 for an example.
“Included in the creed were a number of “anathemas,” or “curses” on anyone who took a contrary position.”
Where can we find the original form of the creed? When was it changed and why?
If you look for “canons of Nicea” you’ll find them. Here’s one site:https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3801.htm
What is your opinion of Creating Christ by James S. Valliant?
I don’t know it.
Arius’ argument works, when you think events over Time. It fails otherwise.
If I remember well one of the argument of Alexander was about this point:
If you accept that everything, Time included, was made by God through the Son,
then God was Father and Son prior to (outside of) the Time,
so She/He’s Father and Son eternally.
The question is:
What can have been happened before the Time was?
Does it even make sense even to talk about events outside the Time?
My sense is that those questions were answered very differently before the development of modern physics and knowledge of the Big Bang…. for us, of course, it is non-sensical to talk about anything happening before the big bang. Time and space both start then.
> for us, of course, it is non-sensical to talk about anything happening before the big bang. Time and space both start then
Not to get off into the physics weeds, but the question of the nature of time is still a matter of dispute. Interestingly, there’s now a view that time as we experience it is an emergent property of some underlying quantum reality. It’s somewhat like temperature and pressure are elementary properties in classical thermodynamics but emergent properties of large ensembles of particles in statistical thermodynamics.
Thanks. But, well, is there anything that is NOT a matter of dispute? 🙂 As to time being an emergent property: doesn’t a quantum reality require a big bang to exist?
> doesn’t a quantum reality require a big bang to exist?
Nobody knows, but one of the more popular ideas has it the other way around: the big bang out of which our universe emerged was a run-away fluctuation in a pre-existing quantum field. Isn’t metaphysics fun?
It would be far more fun if I understood it.
Can we say that for Arius and his followers Jesus was considered to be some kind of powerful angel then? Or was he another category alltogether, like between angel and God?
He was an infinity above the angels. And the Father was an infinity above him.
Can’t we then in some sense say that indeed at the council of Nicaea it was decided that Jesus is God? Since when for Arius Jesus was an infinity below the Father, how can we then say everyone there agreed that Jesus was God? (I’ve read a book about the trinity by Franz Dünzl, which you have referenced somewhere, where it says for Arius Jesus was closer to the other creations than to God)
The participants in the Council were completely unified and committed to the idea Jesus was God. Arians absolutely said he was God! But their opponents probably agreed with you: he’s not REALLY God then. To which they replied “YES he is!”
As most readers here already know, the expression “not one iota” comes from the Gospel of Matthew (5:18) where Jesus says, “For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.”
So I loved learning from this blog post the therefore entertaining fact about the Council of Nicaea “that the theological controversy threatening to fracture the church was a debate over an iota” distinguishing “homoousias” and “homoiousias.”
Jesus could easily have obviated this controversy, but evidently its iota wasn’t the one that mattered to him.
Also, Matthew seemed to think that Jesus was fluent in Greek and assumed his listeners were also?
Oooh, very interesting. Bart, can we get a blog post on this and any other examples found in the gospels?
Good idea! I’ll add it to the list!
Good evening, Bart. Can you shed some light on the Athanasian creed and why it was developed?
I”m afraid I don’t know a lot about it! Sorry.
In an 1989 article R.P.C. Hanson wrote
‘Indeed, until Athanasius began writing, every single theologian, East and West, had postulated some form of Subordinationism. It could, about the year 300, have been described as a fixed part of catholic theology.’
Would you agree?
Thanks
I’m not sure that it was Athanasius himself who changed it (I really don’t know) but yes, for the first 300 years everyone we know was a subordinationist. It was the dispute in Alexandria that changed it.
Even Ignatius and Pseudo-Barnabas? Ignatius at Eph. 7 and Polycarp 3 and Ps. Barnabas 7:4-5 always struck me as being proto-Nicene in Christology, or at least you could read it that way.
I would say most of our surviving writings of the first three centuries are proto-Nicene, but are nowhere near saying what came out of Nicea, that Christ was co-eternal with the father and of “the same substance,” equal in authority and power for all eternity past and future.
From the little I know of Arianism, it sounds similar to the sages of the Hindu scriptures.
“There is only one Master of all creation and created things, the omnipresent God, whose universal reflection is the Christ Consciousness.
Christ Consciousness. The projected consciousness of God immanent in all creation. In Christian scripture, the “only begotten son,” the only pure reflection in creation of God the Father; in Hindu scripture, Kutastha Chaitanya or Tat, the universal consciousness, or cosmic intelligence, of Spirit everywhere present in creation. (The terms “Christ Consciousness” and “Christ Intelligence” are synonymous, as also “Cosmic Christ” and “Infinite Christ.”) It is the universal consciousness, oneness with God, manifested by Jesus, Krishna, and other avatars. Great saints and yogis know it as the state of samadhi meditation wherein their consciousness has become identified with the divine intelligence in every particle of creation; they feel the entire universe as their own body.
Perfected beings on earth may be Christlike souls (their consciousness united with the universal Christ Consciousness);
I like where you are going with this. Did you ever hear of Paul Anthony Wallis and his arguments for an ET connection to God/Jesus and the cosmos? Very compelling comparisons that I believe need to be discussed. Thank you
While it takes a leap of faith to accept either view, I can sort of understand the Arian argument. Excellent posts on this topic.
I have to admit, I’m with Constantine on this, especially as a condition for standing with the church their God… “extremely trivial and quite unworthy of so much controversy….small and utterly unimportant matters… a very silly question.”
Unfortunately for those back then (as already mentioned), they thought that one’s salvation was dependent on one’s correct understanding of the “truth.” So if you got it wrong in your mind, you could not be saved; eternity in hell. Which was not trivial at all. Therefore all the Brouhaha (with its attendant violence, death and untold suffering for so many).
For any interested: you can see Arius (he’s the big guy with white hair, swollen belly and red-orange toga right foreground) and other heretics within Filippino Lippi’s “The Triumph of St. Thomas over the Heretics.” Where: Carafa (a horrible pope) chapel, Santa Maria Sopra Minerva, Rome.
I know from your books the scholarly consensus is Jesus did not claim to be God. In How Jesus Became God you explained how belief in Jesus’ divinity was tied to their belief in his resurrection. Which in the early days was ascension only, not physical resurrection of a corpse.
My question is: did the historical Jesus believe (and verbally claim) he would be resurrected and, if so, did he make the same logical association between ascension and divinity? Or would he have been surprised that his followers made this connection?
My view is no, he did not. I”m not sure he realized he would be executed until very late in the day, possibly a day or so before his arrest?
Thank you Dr. Ehrman. Is there any evidence to support the tradition that Nicholas of Myra attended the Council? Apologies if you’ve already answered this question elsewhere.
I”m afraid I don’t know offhand.
The creed that emerged from Nicaea is all Greek to me. But as an English major and career professional writer I do have some familiarity with our own language. The only thing “of one substance” I can find (at least in translation) is the banality of this apotheosis of sophistry. Frankly, I don’t have a clue what distinctions are being drawn in these formal pronouncements about the nature of the Trinity.
Who can possibly know the “substance” of God? If undefinable, how can more than one type be postulated at all — much less used as grounds for declaring the attempt to distinguish one deific “substance” from the other a heresy?
Further, every definition I can find of “begotten” involves some variation of “arising or brought forth from.” How can someone or something be “Begotten, not made”? What is “begotten” has — by definition — been “made.” Apparently not content with such inherent nonsense, the venerable Nicene pontificators doubled down by adding the incomprehensible “Eternally begotten” — giving us nonsense on stilts!
Absurdities aside, were there no 4th century Christians astute enough to notice the colossal hubris of debating the specific attributes and interrelationships of a transcendent, utterly ineffable Godhead?
I’d say that to understand how these theologians came up with formulae that may seem nonsensical one has to understand the deep Greek philosophical arguments that were involved. Most of which I don’t. But there’s lots written on it. You might try Lewis Ayers books on Nicaea.
Thanks for the book suggestion, professor. I found and look forward to reading “Nicaea And Its Legacy” by Ayers.
Perhaps my own Christian faith has become over-informed by study of eastern theology, but the entire effort to reduce the divine nature to mortal ken strikes me as being a fool’s errand.
Personally, I find the Modalist description of Father-Son-Spirit as aspects of the one, true God far more logically compelling than the Trinitarian subdivision into separate persons that somehow, nevertheless, comprise a singular Godhead. Notwithstanding its eventual rejection as a heresy.
The orthodox objection that when Jesus prayed to the Father “he wasn’t just talking to himself” is a fair one. But that issue is at least susceptible to some kind of explanation. Indeed, the problem seems trivial compared with the outright incomprehensibility of the Trinitarian notion that there are (to borrow a line minted by my own industry) “Three! Three! Three Gods in One!” 🙂
The fact that Modalism advocates would acquiesce to the dismissive (if not contemptuous) “It’s just a mystery” non-defense speaks more, I suspect, to the power of the emperor and his aborning Roman Catholic Church than to rational argument.
I’d say that to understand how these theologians came up with formulae that may seem nonsensical one has to understand the deep Greek philosophical arguments that were involved. Most of which I don’t. But there’s lots written on it. You might try Lewis Ayers books on Nicaea.
How do trinitarians argue with John 14:9, but what did Jesus mean by saying: “He that hath seen me seen the Father”?
24 But, objects a trinitarian, are you not forgetting what Jesus said to apostle Philip? “Have I been so long time and Jesus answered that that was what he had been doing all along, namely, showing them the Father. He had been explaining who his heavenly Father was. He been showing what heavenly Father was like. He imitated Father. He was like him, so much so that when one saw Jesus it was as if seeing his Father.
I”m not sure exactly what you’re asking. I suppose most think that since they are of the “same substance” that seeing one is like seeing another.
Does 1700+ year old Coptic language translations of John 1:1 prove Jehovah Witness have correctly translated “the word was a god.”
The Coptic versions of the Bible were translated from Greek. It seems that most Bible books were available in Coptic by the beginning of the fourth century C.E.
The oldest complete Coptic codices of the Gospels available today date from the 11th or the 12th century C.E., but copies of single Bible books, or portions of them, date back to as early as the fourth and fifth centuries C.E. The value of the Coptic translations, particularly the early ones, is that they were based on Greek texts that predate many existing Greek manuscripts. The Coptic translations may shed light on the ancient texts from which they were translated. For example, some Coptic translations render Joh 1:1 in a way that indicates that Jesus, who is referred to as “a god,” is not the same person as Almighty God.
Some Septuagint fragments also have Tetragrammaton quotes from Old Testament being quoted in NT verses
Satan trying to use ignorant people trying to coverup identity of True God.
Sorry. I posted this in wrong blog topic. Problem using blog
I’m not sure I’m following you. What in the Coptic translation supports the view that “the Word was a god”?
1. a. ϨΝ ΤЄϨΟΥЄΙΤЄ ΝЄϤϢΟΟΠ ΝϬΙ ΠϢΑϪЄ
1. b. ΑΥШ ΠϢΑϪЄ ΝЄϤϢΟΟΠ ΝΝΑϨΡΜ ΠΝΟΥΤЄ
1. c. ΑΥШ ΝЄΥΝΟΥΤЄ ΠЄ ΠϢΑϪЄ — Sahidic Coptic text
(Transliterated):
1. a. Hn te.houeite ne.f.shoop ngi p.shaje
1. b. Auw p.shaje ne.f.shoop n.nahrm p.noute
1. c. Auw ne.u.noute pe p.shaje 1
Literally, the Sahidic Coptic says:
1. a. In the beginning existed the word
1. b. And the word existed in the presence of the god
1. c. And a god was the word
We can see at the outset that the Sahidic Coptic translators used the Coptic definite article (p) in referring to the One the Word was with or “in the presence of” (nnahrm): p.noute, “the” god, i.e., God. And we can see that in referring to the Word, the Coptic translators employed the Coptic indefinite article (ou; just “u” following the vowel “e”): ne.u.noute, “was a god.”
John 1:1 and the Coptic Versions
ϨΝ ΤЄϨΟΥЄΙΤЄ ΝЄϤϢΟΟΠ ΝϬΙ ΠϢΑϪЄ ΑΥШ ΠϢΑϪЄ ΝЄϤϢΟΟΠ ΝΝΑϨΡΜ ΠΝΟΥΤЄ ΑΥШ ΝЄΥΝΟΥΤЄ ΠЄ ΠϢΑϪЄ — John 1:1, Sahidic Coptic text. — “In the beginning existed the Word, and the Word existed with the God, and a god was the word.” — Literal English translation
Translating “the Word was a god,” 1700 Years Ago
As the early Christians continued to carry out Jesus’ command to preach to all nations, the good news or gospel had to be translated into many languages. (Matthew 28:19, 20) “At least by the third century C.E., the first translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures had been made for the Coptic natives of Egypt.” – Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2, page 1153 * Similarly, the Anchor Bible Dictionary states, “All these data point to the 3rd century as the latest terminus a quo [point of origin] for the earliest Coptic translation.” **
This earliest Coptic (from an Arabic/Greek word for “Egyptian”) translation was in the Sahidic dialect, approximately 1,700 years ago. The scribes who were translating the Gospel of John from Koine Greek into their own Egyptian language encountered an issue that still faces translators today. It is the question of correctly translating John 1:1.
The Sahidic Coptic translators rendered John 1:1 in this way.
We can see at the outset that the Sahidic Coptic translators used the Coptic definite article (p) in referring to the One the Word was with or “in the presence of” (nnahrm): p.noute, “the” god, i.e., God. And we can see that in referring to the Word, the Coptic translators employed the Coptic indefinite article (ou; just “u” following the vowel “e”): ne.u.noute, “was a god.”
Many ancient Sahidic Coptic manuscripts were collated and translated into English by Coptic scholar George W. Horner. In 1911, Horner published an English translation of John’s gospel. He rendered John 1:1c as: “In the beginning was being the word, and the word was being with God, and [a] God was the word.” 2 He encloses the indefinite article “a” within brackets, which might indicate that he considered that here its translation is not required in English. However, in his own translation of the same Coptic sentence structure in other verses in John, Horner himself does render the indefinite article in English as “a”, without any brackets, which is entirely proper at John 1:1c also.
Some examples of the Sahidic Coptic indefinite article with the noun structure that Horner translates into English with an unbracketed “a” in the Gospel of John follow below. They are also verses in which most English versions of John translate the Greek pre-verbal anarthrous predicate nouns with an “a. ” :
John 4:19: “a prophet” (NRSV; Horner)
John 6:70: “a devil” (NRSV; Horner)
John 8:44: “a murderer” (NRSV; Horner)
John 8:44: “a liar ” (NRSV; Horner)
John 8:48: “a Samaritan” (NRSV; Horner)
John 9:17: “a prophet” (NRSV; Horner)
John 9:24: “a sinner” (NRSV; Horner)
John 9:25: ” a sinner” (NRSV; Horner)
John 10:1: ” a thief” (NRSV; Horner
John 10:13: “a hired hand ” (NRSV; Horner)
John 12:6: ” a thief” (NRSV; Horner)
John 18:35: “a Jew” (NRSV; Horner)
John 18:37a: “a king” (NRSV; Horner)
John 18:37b: “a king.” (NRSV; Horner) 3
Literally, Sahidic Coptic *ou.noute* means “a god.” 4 When a Coptic noun is a common noun and refers to an entity (“man,” “god”) the Coptic indefinite article is customarily translated by the English indefinite article “a”. The Coptic indefinite article ou marks the noun as a non-specific individual or a specimen of a class. 5 When the noun refers to an abstract idea (“truth,” “happiness”) or an unspecified quantity of a substance (“water,” “some water”; “gold,” “some gold”), or is used adjectively (“wise,” “divine”), the Coptic indefinite article need not be translated by the English indefinite article “a.”
Sorry — comments need to be 200 words or less.
But I will say that translators do not rely on later versional evidence in order to determine the meaning of an original Greek text.
Bart,
The pericope Luke 19.11 – 27 appears to be two separate parables Luke has clumsily mashed together to me. It can very plausibly be read and perhaps has been by some as Jesus referring to himself in verse 27 where the new king commands violence against his enemies.
Setting aside historical Jesus for the moment (who probably never said this) is NT Jesus the literary protagonist referring to himself in Luke 19.27?
It certainly seems that way.
TY
ARe you asking if Jesus — in Luke (not in history) — is speaking of *himself* as the king who goes away and then comes back in judgment? Yup, definitely.
Yes. Christ said those that don’t want him to be king over them would be slaughtered.
Accepting Christ’s Kingdom instead of man made governments
Christ’s Kingdom is the only government that will restore mankind to the perfection that Adam and?Eve lost by their disobedience in Eden
The idea that Luke spliced an L parable into one he got from Q (presumably because it was only a few lines long and the setting conveniently similar) is an interesting suggestion.
The insurrection plot (Lk 11:14) is a somewhat awkward and unrelated interjection that disrupts the flow of a teaching that is, otherwise, entirely concerned with making productive use of available resources. Likewise, the king’s retribution against the incidental plotters (Lk 11: 27) seems equally out of place as the denouement for a lesson on the virtues and rewards of utilizing rather than squandering opportunities.
Luke appears to have shaded the Q parable in other ways, as well — at least, vis-à-vis Mathew’s version. He has (oddly) added seven servants who play no role in the story. Further, where Matthew has the king entrust the three principals with different sums, Luke’s king allots the same amount to all three. That notwithstanding, the two productive servants in both versions are rewarded in direct proportion to their gross ROI.
What do you and/or your scholarly compadres make of the differences in how Luke and Matthew recounted this Q parable?
In almost every case of Matthew and Lukan overlaps where there are significant differences one can find a particular emphasis of one of the Gospels or the other; in this case Matthew appears to want to stress the judgment coming to the Jewish people for their rejection of Jesus (cf. the trial scene: His blood be upon us and our children).
There must be so many dots from this parable to that interpretation that I can’t imagine even the most rabid of orthodox apologists could connect them all.
The self-evident lesson — in both gospel versions (and, undoubtedly, the original Q) — is the fundamental importance of responsible stewardship, i.e., that God expects each of us make best use of whatever resources (gifts) we have been given.
Matthew much better illustrates the point by having different allocations among the servants (five, two and one); whereas, Luke for some reason undercuts it by having the servants start on equal ground (one for each.) Either way, however, the master expects that when the time comes for an accounting each of the servants will have made some productive use of whatever resources had been entrusted to him.
How can the lines of the story possibly be wide enough to find any hint of “the judgment coming to the Jewish people for their rejection of Jesus” between them?
I’m certainly not the most perceptive guy on earth. But I’d suggest to the orthodox apologist that (with all due respect 🙂) if you can find that meaning in this parable, you must have your head up Uranus.
Surprised kudos BTW, professor, for your fair recapitulation of the orthodox understanding of this parable — notwithstanding its incomprehensibility to this humble blogger! A quick survey of several Bible Commentary websites confirms that your description is widely reflected in orthodox apologetics.
It seems this perfectly straightforward lesson about the importance of using whatever gifts God has provided, however large or small, has been (confoundingly) transformed into an anti-Semitic screed about the vengeance the Messiah will eventually wreak upon the Chosen People for their having spurned him and the rescue he brought.
Wow! Really?
The attempt to depose the king is in only one of the two gospel versions, and almost certainly was not an element of the Q original!
It is no mean feat to disregard the ENTIRE substance of a simple and unambiguous parable about responsible stewardship by elevating a two-line, subdivided and awkwardly-inserted, insurrectionist subplot — from a single source — and twist it into “symbolizing judgment coming to the Jewish people for their rejection of Jesus.”
Inured as I have become to Doctrine Über Alles apologetics, can ALL of orthodox scholarship really be THAT obtuse and/or shameless? Do none of your orthodox colleagues have a more plausible analysis to offer?
By “orthodox” I assume you mean something like “traditional believing Christian”? There are of course some terrific scholars — truly terrific — in that group; they would say that Matthew has modified the original parable in this direction; there’s a lot of opposition to Jewish leaders and their followers in this Gospel!
Thanks for the reassurance that there are orthodox scholars (by which I do mean of the “traditional believing Christian” type) with the objectivity and common sense to read this parable for what it plainly teaches, i.e., that responsible stewardship will be rewarded and dereliction penalized. (Proportionately BTW — yet another teaching of Jesus that has, nevertheless, been repudiated by “traditional believing Christian” church doctrine.)
In addition to websites (not exactly renowned for careful content vetting) I checked my old copy of the orthodox Unger’s Bible Handbook. ALL sources twist this simple and unambiguous parable into the Messianic-retaliation-against-ungrateful-Jews interpretation you described.
Your more sensible colleagues really need to find their way into popular media. Frankly, what is out there now pole-vaults over the text in world-class leaps of logic — the only way to remake this parable into a symbolic tale of divine retribution against Jewish ingrates.
How do Trinitarian apologists manage to deduce that Jesus intended the king to represent himself? It is the Father who bestows the gifts. Jesus is the Son, the human sacrifice whose death saves everyone — industrious and slacker alike — who declares “Jesus is my Lord and Savior” since they regard individual effort entirely irrelevant to salvation.
Colleagues. Yes they do. Some do try to. But most are like scholars in every field — interested mainly in advancing scholarshp. As to apologists: I’m not quite sure what you’re asking about a king representing himself.
Dr. Ehrman, fellow bloggers. Since we’re talking about Nicaea and the view of Christ, I would love to get some thoughts on the view of Jesus as an alien being. Paul Arthur Wallis speaks on this topic extensively. I find it extremely interesting and would love to know if the early church father’s and councils addressed this in any way. Thank you
No, that’s just a modern idea originating once people started thinking about space travel and life on other planets. In early Christainity Christ was an “alient being” only to the extent that he originally came from heaven with God before coming to earth.
Dr. Ehrman, thank you for your reply. In your professional and extremely knowledgeable opinion, would you give any credence to modern day thought of Christ as an alient being? Of course I’m speaking of an unorthodox view of biblically interpretation. I believe there are some compelling, or at the very least extremely interesting, arguments that can be made. I simply find it fascinating. Thank you.
Zero.
Dr Ehrman, thank you.
Prof Ehrman,
Please, I have heard argued elsewhere that the motivation behind Constantin’s interest in resolving the Arian controversy was to prevent fragmentation of the empire. Further pointing that somehow Constantin was only a pseudo Christian for the sake of power and largely control and not a genuine Christian at that.
Q1. Is Constantin more concerned with the fragmentation of the empire or fragmentation of the Christian community?
Q2. If the latter is true, were there a whole lot of Christians around and before the time of Nicene Council to have caused a huge suasion / influence in the empire?
1. Probably both; 2. There were several millions of Xns by this time. I have a discussion of just these matters in my book The Triumph of Christianity, if you are able to get your hands on a copy.
Satan knows he’s doomed and wants everybody to die with him in the lake of fire so he uses deceived people to lead others away from the True God YHWH
Satan wants the whole word, I.e.. 7 billion people to die with him because he is evil and hates the truth. Evil one controls the whole world
Satan used deceived people to spread lies around the world to lead others away from the truth.
Bible says Satan ruler of the world. Since Adam and Eve’s disobedience human society has been influenced under the rule of the Devil
The mainstream churches of today make th same mistake that the Pharisees and Sadduccees of Jesus made by their misinterpretations of what Jesus said
The Atlantic Ocean is of the same substance as the Meditteranean Sea, and they are in some sense one, but that doesn’t make them equal. And if you have seen the Meditteranean Sea, you have a better idea of what the Atlantic Ocean is like compared to someone who has spent their life in a landlocked country.
Likewise, a lake with a fountain in it contains only one kind of water, whether that water is currently being spurted into the air or not.
If I’m not mistaken, among ancient thinkers, Tertullian is probably the one best known for similar analogies.
In light of these analogies, why should homoousias imply equality? Is there some connotation that the English translation “same substance” does not capture? Is the Meditteranean Sea, to a Greek, not homoousias with the Atlantic Ocean?
It’s an interesting point. But I don’t think they are imagining that the Father is larger than the Son or covers different territory. All analogies break down!
Hello Bart, it must have been odd to be Jewish in Constantine’s era. You lived in a world of Pagans, and suddenly the largest Empire adopts this strange offshoot of your religion which shares some version of your scriptures. What was the general response of Jewish writers from that century to Constantine’s promotion of Christianity? Were they dismayed that their rivals were now in charge, were they perhaps glad to see something from their religion triumph, were they indifferent? I’ve found it difficult to find anything on this subject.
Thanks, you’re the best.
I talk about it (all of that) in my book The Triumph of Christianity. The biggest problem for Jews was the anti-Jewish legislation that started to appear under Constantine and then started to hit big-time fifty years later under his successor Theodosius I. It started being a very bad time to be a Jew, and got worse from there….
Dr. Ehrman,
Did any early Christians we know of deny the deity of Jesus?
Oh yes. At least in the sense that he was *inherently* a divine being. Often these Christians are called “adoptionists” because they thought Jesus was a full flesh and blood human being in every way, who, because he was so righteous, was “adopted” to be the son of God — e.g,. at the resurrection or the baptism. I”ve posted on this before a few times, including here: https://ehrmanblog.org/adoptionistic-christologies/
Dr. Ehrman,
I’m grateful for having found your blog. I’m a middle school teacher @ All Saints Day School in Carmel, CA , and our students compete in the National History Day competition. To my delight, one of my students has chosen the topic of the Council of Nicaea (this year’s NHD theme is ‘Turning Points in History’). Having attended a Jesuit university, where one of my favorite classes was the early church–and we read ‘The Early Church’ by W.H.C. Frend–this topic is of great interest to me, as is this particular post of yours. This has created a great dialogue between my student and me. Her goal is to spotlight the Council as a major turning point in history, writing about the state of the church prior, the Council itself, and the state of the church from the Council to the present.
Asking for her:
Had Constantine NOT convened the Council, how might the church have hobbled along with these questions of substance unanswered … the difference between ‘same’ and ‘similar’ still unclear?
Also: if you have suggestions for books focused on the church as it was prior to the Council, I’d appreciate any ideas.
~ Much appreciated, John Schubert
Great question. With the church growing at the rate it was (I talk about this in my book The Triumph of Christianity) it was on teh path to being a major force and then the dominating force in the Empire soon after Constantine’s conversion, and if he hadn’t called a council my GUESS is that the church leaders themselves would have gotten together to thrash it out. But who knows?! For Xty before Constantine, your student may want to check out my book After The New Testament (which probaby should have been called Xty Before Constantine! But I don’t include reading from the NT in it)
Thank you for the thoughts. I’ll share this with my student, and I’ll go search for ‘After The New Testament’.
— js