(17 votes, average: 4.88 out of 5)
Loading...A month ago I decided to add a new feature to the blog, a periodic post that asks you to share your personal view about something, your honest opinion based on serious expertise or complete non-expertise.
These posts are (and will be) called “What Do You Think?” I will NOT be responding to your replies/comments. I’ll simply be posting them so you can express yourself and have others can see your views. (As always, I will not be allowing comments that are rude to others or irrelevant to the question – for example, castigations of particular politicians that many but not all of us may despise, on one side of the political chasm facing us or the other. Or that try to proselytize others to your religious beliefs).
Others of course can comment on your comment as they choose — and I hope they do. I’ll be listening in, for my own fun, education, and edification!
The topics are meant to involve the BIG QUESTIONS. This one is related to the previous one but is purely situational: What do *you* think happens immediately at death?
Explication: I’ve written two books now on heaven and hell: the trade book on where the ideas came from (Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife; Simon & Schuster) that came out last year and a scholarly book on Journeys to Heaven and Hell due out from Yale University Press this coming April.
These books are principally about ancient ideas and texts, though in the trade book I do get a bit into my personal views.
For my research on that book I read a bunch of books and articles about Near Death Experiences – not because they were overly relevant to what I wanted to discuss in the book (where our ideas of the afterlife actually came from) but because often when I choose to do a trade book, I pick something that will give me a bona fide excuse to read things I’m eager to read and learn about but have had no occasion to explore (since just about the only non-fiction I read is related to what I’m writing at the time). So I have definite views about that aspect of the topic.
And I’ve long thought about what I myself think. Short story: I’ve had general anesthesia (only) a couple of times. My experience is similar to many others. I’m there counting backwards and boom! I’m waking up with no recollection of the hour or so in between.
My view is that death will be like that only, well, more so. Your cerebrum bites the dust, and you simply have zero cognition on any level. During that state I’ve never been anxious, depressed, in pain, eager to get out, wishing I were somewhere else – nothing at *all*. That’s how I think death will be the moment it comes.
In 200 years from now I will be experiencing exactly what I was experiencing 200 years ago: nothing at all. I won’t be ecstatic and full of vigor and I won’t be upset and weepy. That wasn’t disturbing to me before, it won’t be disturbing to me then.
That’s what I myself think. But I’d LOVE to know what you think. You have 200 words. What do you think?
My experience of general anesthesia is the same. I think we just turn off the lights.
Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo
You got it! Death is a physical thing. When the engine stops working you’re dead. The brain is dead. There is no soul. The only thing Christianity has done is it make it less stressful when Christians die. They believe the big lie of John 3:15,16
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Being dead may be fine; the actual process of dying may be less so (depending on a host of circumstances). The idea of simply not existing anymore, as a conscious individual, is unpleasant (and potentially terrifying) in its own way.
After reading and watching quite a few near-death experience stories, I expect the following to happen when I die:
My soul will leave my body and go to one of two places. A dark and lonely place where others are that do not wish to be disturbed. It’s completely dark, there’s absolutely nothing to see there and certainly no fiery cauldron of lava or such like. According to other Christians who started there, this is only a brief visit before a shaft of light or tunnel opens and they are taken to a heavenly realm. This is the alternative destination some Christians go to immediately, thereby skipping the dark place.
The heavenly realm is full of light. Often people describe surfaces filled with vibrant vegetation and naturally occurring features such as mountains and rivers. These features usually emit their own light, so that there is no nearby star providing the light, but instead light is provided by everything present in this realm.
Usually, there is a central figure that most attention naturally gravitates to. This is the figure of Christ, who radiates a type of light that gives off waves of emotional sensation; usually overwhelming peace, love and joy.
I have had the experience of death several times via The Medina Mixture administered by a doctor in the late 1970’s. I really had no idea what to expect and certainly didn’t expect it would change my thinking about death or afterlife so completely. Each time, a whirling all-encompassing mass of energy approached me and culminated in an explosion reminiscent of the Big Bang where I separated from my ego and found myself with my essence. I had never before heard of NDE’s but that is what happened. I was then taken up into a tunnel so unfathomably high and quickly found myself at the top, encompassed by the most brilliant light. I said to myself, “Wow- this is God. Oh, this is me. This is God AND me!” Later I started to feel myself leaving and descending the tunnel eventually getting back into my body. If I’d actually died, would the light that encompassed me have faded to black? I don’t know. All I know is that the NDE I experienced was actually a crescendo, an explosion, an amazing surprise. I have often wondered if Jesus had an experience such as this which may’ve influenced his path. https://erowid.org/chemicals/carbogen/carbogen_article1.shtml
It’s rather tough to write something original, when you have the exact same view with the one asking for yours. But I would like to share an original (or so I believe) thought I’ve had some years ago which has stuck with me ever since. It is predicated on 2 prerequisites: 1)that we will eventually discover how to reverse aging, and 2)we will eventually discover time travel to the past. If these 2 criteria are met in the future (a third prerequisite, I guess, would be to reach a reasonably distant future), that will automatically mean that everyone who ever lived could very well live forever. Essentially, people from these distant-technologically advanced generations could in theory time travel to the past, take on board(?) anyone they like back to the future, and give her/him the necessary medical treatment to reverse her/his aging. In that way, death would only be an instant travel to the future.
Hi…a few problems exists with time travel. It’ll be very expensive & if I remember correctly, it is impossible to go into the future. You can go back in time & change things so the present would be different. i.e. go back to before Trump was born & give his Father a vasectomy.😀
I’m not sure what happens after death matters. We will all have the opportunity to find out so why waste time thinking about it except that world religions treat the afterlife as a reward for a good life here. Why? Is it because the majority of humans can’t be counted on to live a “good” life in the here and now?
In this sense most religions can be thought of as a giant bribery scheme equivalent to reward systems used with children – clean your room today and ice cream tomorrow.
The world may be a better place if religion just taught us to do our best today for our family, friends and greater community and tomorrow will take care of itself.
Good observation. The story goes that the guys who drove the planes into the World Trade Centre on 9-11 did so because they were promised rewards in the afterlife. That is an extreme example of the rewards idea of the afterlife, but a reminder of how tragic that ideology can be. I agree that we waste time in the here and now worrying about or drawing conclusions about the hereafter. Thank you for sharing this perspective. Today is what matters, because Today is all we have.
The 9/11 hijackers were promised 72 virgins when they got to Paradise. They committed mass murder based on that promise. They thought death was preferable to life and killing Islam’s enemies (based on a fatwa issued by Osama bin Laden which was contrary to several points of Islamic law–disgracing Islam and killing innocent people) would earn them joy and a warm welcome by Allah. So they didn’t fear death; it didn’t mean very much to them. It was temporary.
My own view is that death, when it comes, is a part of life. I’m living now, creating art, enjoying music, learning some astrophysics as an enjoyable use of my mind and rediscovering my graduate school training in historical Theology with Bart’s lectures. I joke that, having watched the film “Meet Joe Black,” that if deat
The 9/11 hijackers were promised 72 virgins when they got to Paradise. They committed mass murder based on that promise. They thought death was preferable to life and killing Islam’s enemies (based on a fatwa issued by Osama bin Laden which was contrary to several points of Islamic law–disgracing Islam and killing innocent people) would earn them joy and a warm welcome by Allah. So they didn’t fear death; it didn’t mean very
much to them. It was temporary.
My own view is that death, when it comes, is a part of life. I’m living now, creating art, enjoying music, learning some astrophysics as an enjoyable use of my mind and rediscovering my graduate school training in historical
Theology with Bart’s lectures. I joke that, having watched the film “Meet Joe Black,” that if death looked like Brad Pitt, there’d be lines around funeral parlors waiting to get in. I’m more afraid of a nasty dying.
I’ve thought a lot about ever since my experience in “sleep paralysis” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis) that, while I was in it, gave me the impression that I was dying. In retrospect, it gives me the impression that I understand the experiential basis for ancient ascent of the soul mysticism.
There were three stages of ascent: fiery bodily, ethereal luminous soul, and purified mind. There was an intermediate stage like deep sleep. And there was a final stage of awakening into a luminous body/soul/mind union on here on earth.
It happened in ’95 and I’ve been doing mind/body awareness practices such as yoga and centering prayer ever since. I’ve also been reinterpreting the NT texts such as the resurrection and ascension narratives on one hand, and the first person account of Third Heaven and Paradise by Paul on the other hand.
My own belief is that clinical death is exactly as Ehrman describes it. I think NDEs happen in the moments just before and just after clinical death. But I also think that NDEs are like my experience of mystical ascent of the soul in that they are honest to God experiences that have real transformative effects.
I have been interested in this topic for at least 40 years and have been reading much related to this ever since.
There are many worldwide studies of this, such as the neuropsychologist Peter Fenwick, who I think have done a good scientific research in this field. Really compelling.
Next to that you have stories and books like (for example!) the neurosurgeon from Chalotte, NC, Eben Alexander who promoted his view of the survival of consciousness as an example, and next to reincarnation research from the late Ian Stevenson, Moody and others.
These ideas also correspond almost perfectly with Jungian psychology, and much of the work and research done by Carl Gustav Jung.
For the past 15 years, my view of the Book of Revelation (which before NEVER made sense to me, has been well acquainted with the various views “out there”), about the evolution of our own selves, toward our divine heritage or source. The story seems to me to be about our soul and or spirit rising, and it just makes more and more sense. It fits really well, and it really matches almost perfectly with the literatures of the NDE authors, researchers, and Carl Gustav Jung.
I think it is a continuous continuation of life or existence. I do not think our consciousness dies and that reality is like even science shows, much greater than we are able to comprehend.
My experience in “sleep paralysis” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis) gave me the impression that literally I was dying.
In retrospect, it gives me the impression that I understand the experiential basis for ancient ascent of the soul mysticism. There were three stages of ascent: fiery bodily, ethereal luminous soul, and purified mind. There was an intermediate stage like deep sleep. And there was a final stage of awakening into a luminous body/soul/mind union on here on earth.
It happened in ’95 and I’ve been doing mind/body awareness practices such as yoga and centering prayer ever since. I’ve also been reinterpreting the NT texts such as the resurrection and ascension narratives on one hand, and the first person account of Third Heaven and Paradise by Paul on the other hand.
I think clinical death is exactly as Ehrman describes it. I think NDEs happen in the moments just before and just after clinical death. But I also think that NDEs are like my experience of mystical ascent of the soul–they are honest to God experiences that have real transformative effects.
I’m a pastor, and so I promote the hope of eternal life. However, in my study of scripture, along with my readings from scholarly sources (Heaven and Hell by Ehrman, Life After Death by Segal), I also believe that our pervading social concepts of life after death are primarily formed by human theorizing. I definitely do not believe in any afterlife consisting of deliberate torment inflicted by God. On the other side of the issue, I’m not sure what the afterlife is like for those I will categorize as “in God’s favor”. I don’t know if there is total annihilation involved, or whether such would be temporary or permanent. Though the issue was once a very important one to me, in my old age, I have become reconciled to just trusting God with my future, regardless of whether I live on or not. I’ve found that the best teachings regarding trusting in God as a God of love brings out the best in people; the best in regard to how they treat others, and the best in terms of how they draw meaning and value from life. That’s enough for me now.
In your point of view as a seemingly well-read pastor, who would you categorize as “in God’s favour”
thank you!
Hi Em.Freedman. I think God’s favor extends to all, but people benefit from it in proportion to their response to it. For example, a person may be inundated with prejudice regarding another race, and God opens the door to experience of people of that race so that the person has ample evidence to repent of their prejudice and grow. Many such people choose instead to hold on to their prejudice like a security blanket, and thus ward off God’s freely offered favor through his extended grace. I definitely do not believe that God’s favor is based on anyone making a creedal confession, or knowing something that other people have not had the opportunity to learn, or reciting magical words that transform them from a sinner to a saint. I hope that answers your question.
Hi Jscheller! Thank you… I really like that!! And I appreciate you responding!
So how do you see Jesus’ role in salvation? What does he save one from?
Thank you!!
If one’s salvation is contingent on Jesus’ work, then I do not see that work accurately explained through Substitution Atonement Theories, though they seem to be the most popular among many Christians. I can understand why sacrificial analogies were used in scripture to try to explain what Jesus did – Not only Jesus’ people., but most all religious people outside of Judea practiced sacrifice in their worship. But to believe in our own day that Jesus died in order to free us from the wrath of God really paints a picture of a Dysfunctional Divinity. I don’t think Jesus changed God’s mind about us. I think Jesus changed humanity’s mind about God. I think salvation is about recognizing that God’s desire is reconciliation – being reconciled to God, which we can only be through reconciliation to one another. Look up Richard Rohr, as he is more eloquent on this issue than I am.
Jscheller, I think that your response was incredibly eloquent and helpful! But thank you, I will look up Rohr too!
My wanting to learn more about the after life began the day my father died 6 days before my ninth birthday. I was at school , on the play ground and watching birds circle. My father was in a hunter and while camping he told me those often circled a carcass. I felt that a member of my family had died. When I got home after school ,my two older sisters were standing on the curb next to my uncle’s car. I was met at the top of the driveway by his wife ( my mother’s sister-in-law, she said “You have to grow up today, your father killed himself and your mother is in a state of shock”. I have had many experiences like that sense.
Jv: That is a compelling account. I note that you sensed it had happened at a distance. I also note that you have had it happen often since. Thanks for sharing.
Amen, brother 🙂 Would that more pastoral guidance came from your perspective.
Question… you said “promote”. Do you or did you promote what you believe/d, or not believe what you promote/d? Just curious that you would use that word. And is eternal life a hope for you? And if it is what does that look like for you? I have always wanted to ask a pastor that. When I started to think through the very thing I once “hoped” for… there wasn’t anything left that was hopeful. Eternity seemed more like hell than heaven of any kind.
Hello Ruby, I used that word, because I am faithful to teaching what I understand NT scripture to say about eternal life. I believe Jesus taught it. I know Paul taught it. In terms of my own belief, I want to believe it. However, I also an open to the possibility that neither Jesus, nor Paul, nor other Church Fathers, had the inside scoop. Since I am a “glass half full” type of person, and since I want to help others feel better about the uncertainties of existence, I try to point to positive possibilities when consulted on afterlife theorizing. I am honest though, and my knowledge of OT afterlife concepts, as well as general historical afterlife concepts, leaves me with no option except to confess that I can’t speak authoritatively to what awaits us on the other side of the curtain. I do have faith that whatever is awaiting me is in accordance to the will of a God that loves creation. I can’t imagine that for which I have no comparison for, but I trust for the best.
I get it… it’s the job. For me to believe like I did, I would have to abandon the logic and need for authenticity I have now. But I don’t have it in me. I can’t un-see or un-know or un-hear. I also can’t pretend when pretending is what it would take for me now to believe in an after life. It’s weird. I still want to embrace a Creator… because writing off the universe as some cosmic belch doesn’t work for me either. I just don’t see the sense in anything beyond what we were given on this planet. But that is a long journey of discovery and processing. Thank you for your reply.
I recently watched Midnight Mass on Netflix, and at the end there is a character monologue, a sort of poem about “what happens when we die”. It was very moving and I highly recommend looking it up if you don’t mind spoilers.
Since Homo Sapiens emerged in Olduvai Gorge 300,000 years ago, most of the ensuing branches of humanity have sought a god. Hope for an afterlife assuaged the horrors of daily living. Christianity found the key. In the South, many obituaries start with “X has gone to be with the lord” or “X has won wings” etc. And who can prove otherwise? But I believe the billions of folks who have died are just gone. Gone to sleep. Gone to fertilizer.
Good Morning, I just completed your exceptional Early Christianity course online, and in searching you – found this question.
I can only answer by way of my life’s experiences.
Age 10: my father died and within a year I experienced a dream where he showed me heaven. The flowers were music, he worked with professors that create positive change on earth.
Age 12: I dreamed a woman floated me from my room into the church she founded in Emmitsburg; Years later I described it to caretakers and they showed me objects from my dream.
Age 20: College; during the night a demonic presence entered my room. I yelled out to Jesus and instantly his figure appeared and the demon disappeared. On that same night, an individual had come to campus, overturned cars, entered the church, and wrote my name in blood on a mirror.
Age 30: As a church organist playing a funeral, I heard a loud scream of “help me please” and later found out from the priest that the deceased was a mobster with a criminal past
Continued….
Continuing:
Age 35: During the final hymn of another funeral, I witnessed two soldiers float from the stained glass window, over my choir members, and stand at attention saluting the deceased. They were in 2 separate US military uniforms and of different ages. When the casket was removed from the church, they followed over it and back out through the window. My choir members who saw nothing and had sung the song countless times began to cry while singing. Later they said they felt the presence of “angels.” Leaving the church, I went to a family member of the deceased who said the males I described were the two brothers of the deceased who had died as soldiers.
In years to follow, from time to time, I’ve experienced other deceased persons unknown to me, who were involved with the current event taking place and I’ve gone on to confirm their identities.
I’m now 57 and have no fear of death, or of there being “nothing.” I’ve grown in faith and know that there absolutely is a continuation of life and that those who are dead work with us as we suffer or experience moments of happiness on earth.
Life continues after Life.
I grew up in a church which proclaimed the rewards of belief leading to a glorious afterlife. I’ve been a student of metaphysics which proclaims never-ending reincarnation. These and more can be easily explained by wishful thinking and fear of death propagated by the astounding imagination machine known as the human brain. As a scientist I am aware that not once in the history of the human race has there been a single bit of evidence showing the possibility of an afterlife or a conscious creator. I agree with you, Bart, that when the brain ceases to function, so does the consciousness that brought all philosophical and religious thought to bear. As you said, you had no thoughts before the formation of your brain which itself is evidence that awareness exists only as long as brain tissue does. This sounds cold but only compared to societal norms regarding eternal life that the brain created in the first place at the dawn of human thought. The after-death “experience” is nothing to fear because that requires thought itself and there is none without a functioning brain. My take is that death is a forever dreamless sleep. Sounds comfortable, actually.
Non fui, fui, non-sum, non-curo
I was not: I was: I am not: I care not.
I believe that our experience of “self” is a translation of physical stimuli by the brain. This translation emerges as the brain matures and ends when the brain stops functioning. There are ways that brain functioning may be interfered with to smaller or greater degrees, but death, by definition, is an end to that functioning. Without that functioning, there is no more “self.” To put it another way, we will never know that we have died. So it all rides on how well we’ve used our one shot at existence.
I agree with you Prof. Ehrman.
It will be like going under general in general surgery, then… nothingness.
I’m sure sorry about that too.
My wife and I never had any kids and at least I’m around to keep her memory alive.
I’ve rationalized in my own mind that as long as I can say her name once or twice a day and think about her throughout the day that in some way her spirit stays alive.
When I’m gone, the pictures that she drew with pencils and framed so carefully, placing her name real small somewhere in the drawing, will all be just tossed in a dumpster.
Same with our photos.
In my will, I left 5000 dollars for flowers to be placed on her grave on her birthday and our anniversary every year but eventually that will run out…
I placed a stone in a walkway at her church ( she was a good catholic girl) in her memory and I have a foundation in her name that gives money to the local charities in our ole hometown.
But, I won’t get to think about her anymore and I won’t get to run anymore.
An activity which is as close to anything I ever got to religion.
As a scientist who has also experienced general anesthesia, I see evidence of simple non-existence, as you describe. I knew nothing except waking up afterwards. However, when I had a second surgery in the same operating room about six months later, I remembered things about the room, talking to the doctor and nurses, etc., from the first surgery that I had not remembered until refreshed by the second experience. So it’s not that I didn’t have any experience, it’s that I didn’t remember it. I think the question is really about what is the meaning of our existence, or if it even has meaning. I am more and more drawn to the notion of Alan Watts: Life is the universe experiencing itself in endless variety.
If you had asked me to describe what life would be like just before I was born my answer would probably have been wrong.
Angel of Death will take our soul at death and transfer into our grave, an environment known as Barzakh before the Day of Resurrection. Two Angels, called Munkar and Nakir, will question the deceased. Who is your Lord? Who is your Prophet? What is your Religion? Who is your Imam? Direction of Prayer? Who are your Brothers and Sisters?
If the deceased is able to give correct answers, a gate is opened near his head, the grave is widened as far as he can see. Barzakh passes with ease and the Angels proclaim to him, “Sleep thou like a newly wedded bride.” If the deceased is unable to give correct replies, a door of the hell of Barzakh will open for him, and a breath from the breaths of hell will fill his grave.
Quran 22: 7. “..There can be no doubt About it,.. that God will raise up All who are in the graves.”
Quran 30: 19 “It is He (Allah) Who brings out The living from the dead, And brings out the dead From the living, and Who Gives life to the earth After it is dead : And thus shall ye be Brought out (from the dead).”
Happy birthday, Professor.
Consciousness, as a fundamental property of the universe, continues. All memories, bound as they are to perishable matter, vanish.
I’ve had a similar experience with anaethesia – except they skipped the counting backwards part – and it led to similar philosophical musings. And in my own studies I’ve come to understand that the ancient Israelites had a concept of communal or national immortality, but not of an individual one until the Persian period at the earliest. Also, the idea of individual judgment after death became a way to answer the problem of why God allowed the righteous to suffer and the wicked to prosper.
Personally, I favor reincarnation, if for no other reason than I’m still curious, even these days, to find out what happens next. Also, I think it would be a terrible waste to throw everyone’s current life experience away (but then, the universe does tend toward entrophy). The one thing I am certain of is that I won’t have to confront an angry old god with a long white beard who is p*****d at me for not picking the one right way to believe out of all the competition.
I, too, am fond of the notion of reincarnation…though I have a difficult time making sense of it beyond how it feels (and, sometimes, it does feel perhaps just *barely* out of reach!). I suppose it comes down to whether consciousness is in us, or we are in consciousness. I tend to favor the latter option of this paradox, if only because it presents itself to more and more mystery — all of which I am game for!
The advent of new anesthesiology has provided us with an easement: no need to count backwards! At least for colonoscopies! Yay!
I’m a huge fan of reincarnation. I think that would explain much of recounting “past” lives and children’s testimonies of the experiences of other’s who have passed from this life and merged with the life of someone else. Yet, I also recognize the logistics of population numbers and how the “numbers” of “souls” may be skewed. The simple answer lies in the belief that reincarnation happens within the realm of all living things and not just sentient beings. I guess that would be a question of what constitutes “consciousness”. For many of us apparently, learning what it means to be a decent human being takes more than one superficial life and thinking through more deeply what we learned as children culturally.
The greatest unknown is what happens after this life. And for me, using this great unknown as the ultimate fear factor to create an equally unknown place (heaven/hell) is just wrong. Life should focus on what needs to happen here and now to make this planet a better place for us all.
My belief is that when I’m dead I will know what I knew before I was born, which is nothingness.
Same. I love Mark Twain’s quote:
“I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.”
― Mark Twain
The Sep/Oct issue of Discover magazine has an interesting arctile on Near Death Experiences (NDEs). Sam Parnia, Director of Critical Care and Resuscitation Reesearch at NYU Langone Health Medical Center, states “Even when all signs of life have vanished, and brain cells have been deprived of oxygen, those underlying cells don’t die for many hours and possibly even days.” And “…the ‘irreversibilty’ of death is simply the lack of medical means to bring someone back to life”. So, I imagine that unlike being put under anasthesia where the brain is active and functioning in a sleep-like mode, death with no measurable brain activity is probably much different. No one knows what those cells are doing to our thoughts/memories/experiences or how it affects us if resuscitated. Having been present when a person or animal dies I can tell you it is like a power switch is turned off and the previously animated are suddenly inanimate. Temple Grandin, an autistic livestock pioneer, said “Where’d they go?” when she first experienced cattle being slaughtered. It does seem like something leaves, but is it any different than powering off a robot? We just go!
I tend to agree – I think “something” leaves the body at death. Just looking at a person in a coffin in a mortuary, they look like a mannequin more than anything else. This feeling goes beyond just an effect of the makeup the undertakers use. I think we intuitively know this, but just can’t give a rational explanation for this sense.
I will be glorified and ascend to be seated at the Right Hand of the Father where I will judge the living and the dead. So everybody treat me right!
Yes Sir!
The Hindu scriptures refer to the physical, astral, and causal worlds and to man’s three bodies, one different “body” for each realm. The Enlightened Beings have taught this. Paul revealed some of this knowledge in, “I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.” 2Co 12:2 (Bart, if Paul did not write, who did?). In Chapter 43 of Autobiography of a Yogi, Yogananda is given a detailed description, by his Master, of this second and “third heaven.”
Briefly: first heaven is called the sky; second realm is the “heaven” of all religions called the astral realm; the most refined structural realm, “the third heaven” (casual realm) is what Paul refers to above. Paul writes it’s difficult to explain our body in this “third heaven.” Our soul is encased in the physical, astral and causal bodies, successively, until it regains its eternal freedom. Jesus revealed this to his disciples, and the means to achieve this eternal life. Paul referred to this method as, “I die daily,” – called samadhi in Hindu scriptures.
I had a completely unexpected traffic accident where I lost consciousness immediately. As I became conscious I first wondered why I was in pain and immediately wondered what God must have done. I am an atheist and this drove the point home – my mind still falls back on the idea of a powerful mysterious agent who is responsible for the unexplained.
I hope this is how I may die – painless, unexpected. It’s my opinion that life is for the living and I do not want to know the minute of my death beforehand. I may have unpaid debts and others may be in debt to me and I only hope that my death is not the occasion of any pain to those I love.
I would like to think that our spirit (some energy force of dimensional awareness) remains about us at/near time of death and is set free once out body has fully expired (whatever that definition might be). Our free spirit would then had time to wander and/or reflect on what it does next, which could include settling in place with the body, move outward toward another spirit, or wander in search of a new place to reside. I think the former is most likely, but the idea of the spirit being a free energy force is something that I think is possible based on stories I have heard from others who have been near death (the death of others in the recent of distant past, or near their own death).
Bart,
This question is unrelated to this topic but I’m following your instrutions to ask it on the blog. Have you, or any others that you are aware of, written about what Christianity might look like if the Gospel of John didn’t exist or if it had been considered heretical and excluded/banned/destroyed? I’m guessing Christian doctrine would be vastly different and would enjoy reading a more educated thesis on the topic if one exists.
I’d say it’s really hard to know. Without John in the NT, I’m not sure the idea of the “incarnation” would have come about, although you could imagine theologians getting it from a passage such as Phil. 2:6-11. So maybe. But a LOT of Christian ideas come from John — e.g. that Jesus explicitly identified himself as a divine being….
I suppose the Catholic view that the bread and wine being transforming into the *real* body and blood of Jesus would not have developed without John.
Hard to say I’d say.
I thought that Catholics drew their support for transubstantiation from John6:51-56, and without it, the words at the last supper are open to a more symbolic interpretation.
But perhaps I’m wrong, and the words at the last supper are enough to get them there.
Equally interesting would be what Christianity would be like if John were the ONLY gospel!
Until researchers looking to tell us how ‘mind’ emerges from ‘brain’ come up with something better than dualism, I don’t see any way for us to have a rational basis for the concept of ‘soul’. If you buy dualism, then maybe it’s possible to have a basis for something of our personhood remaining, somewhere, after our brains die. The old saw “God’s ways are not our ways” is not all that helpful to me, ‘tho it does remind me to be humble about how little we do understand about the physical universe. I do acknowledge mystery, but I believe there should be some rational basis to what we are willing to plug into the gaps in our knowledge. For myself, the position I adopted many years ago is that if all we have is this life, in this world, that is enough, and I have tried to live my life with gratefulness.
I think that when you die, you die. You don’t have to worry about your past or future because you don’t exist.
I’ve had some experiences that I can’t explain so leave the door open to there being more in life than I know about but I think that the brain can also play tricks on us in ways that we would never have imagined.
We feel sorry for people who die because we think of them suffering before they died without taking seriously the fact that whatever pain they had really doesn’t exist for them. They don’t miss anyone or regret anything and that’s hard for us to realize.
If you want to get people to follow the rules, what better way to do so than to tell them that God is going to reward or punish them?. And since they can see that rule breakers get away with it all of the time, you claim that the punishment and rewards come in a next life — a claim that is completely unverifiable.
I also believe that after death I will no longer exist, just as before I was conceived. I think part of the problem is that once we have existence and consciousness with which to ponder our existence, it is very hard to conceive of non-existence.
Another interesting article relevant to the discussion:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-consciousness-universal/
Wow… This makes total sense. Maybe even explains our arrogance as a species. Maybe arrogance is a harsh word, but somehow it is the one that fits the discussion. Doesn’t the idea of desiring to or expecting to exist for eternity seem arrogant? My cats don’t see the need to exist forever. They are the perfect illustration of living in the moment. I am trying to learn from them, because what my own species has brought to the table is rather undesirable for the most part.
I’m in the sweet sleep camp of Socrates. Zip, nada, end of reel, nothing more to see, feel, taste, smell or experience. When the lights go out, their out. Period. I’ve been under anesthesia over 15 times. Not bragging mind you. Wish it was zero times. But, each time I’ve made sure to kiss my wife, tell her how much I love and have loved her, and hoped to see her again fully realizing that may or may not be the case. Death isn’t something to fear because it is “nothing.” How can nothing induce fear?
Read the Phaedo. Socrates (or Plato) believed that souls go through cycles of life and rebirth, sometimes with punishment, until they become true philosophers. When a philosopher dies, he returns “to his native star” to live a pleasant and presumably eternal existence. This is sometimes called “astral immortality” or “stellar immortality.” There is something similar to it in Dan. 12:3 – “Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.” I think the author of Daniel may have been influenced by Greek ideas here.
Irony: In Jude 1:13, wicked people (or angels) are compared to “wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.”
Interesting. Being a card-carrying Platonist myself, I have always thought that our earthly existence is a sort of illusion – we’re only seeing dim shadows on the wall of a far richer and more expansive reality. Hinduism contains a similar view, with its idea of Samsara as a cycle of death and rebirth until “enlightenment” is achieved. I think our lives have meaning, and that we are here for purposes that go far beyond what we think of as our individual selves. This is partly why I am so fascinated with modern theoretical physics – the latest thinking (having to do with conservation of information) is that our everyday 3D reality is a kind of holographic “projection” of sorts. These ideas are all very new, but at the same time echo ideas that are very old.
I’ve had the same experience with anesthesia, and I agree entirely with your view of what the experience of death is like–no more experience at all, the termination of the capacity for experience. I’ve not read many of the NDE accounts, and I don’t doubt they’re weird and seemingly inexplicable. But I know they’re the experiences of people who go on living, not of people who’ve died, and I know even I, with a rather paltry imagination, have had weird experiences, and I know others have had much weirder ones. I don’t see how experiences of the living count as evidence of survival after death, whatever that strange notion might mean. I can’t even begin to make sense of “reincarnation,” let alone find any evidence it occurs.
I confess that life after death is another of the many things I have no certainty about. I remember my spiritual advisor, a priest, saying that we, as Christians, believe in eternal life. But we don’t really know…And that about sums it up.
However, I can fantasize a bit. Maybe we are extinguished, and feel no pain. Maybe there is such a thing as Karma, and we are reborn according to our behavior in our current life. Maybe our atoms, and possibly our consciousness, is taken back into the great universe, to manifest again some time and some where. Maybe, as the Rubiáyát of Omar Khayyám says, “Into this universe, and why not knowing, nor whence like water willy-nilly flowing. And out of it as wind along the waste, we know not whither, willy-nilly flowing.”
What I do know for sure is that we can make the choice in this current world to live a good and full life, doing the best we can to make things better. And we can choose to follow a spiritual or religious path, regardless of the dictates of logic, skepticism, or pure reason.
Is this your ‘what do you think’? I’m confused as always. I can run from a near death experience to the importance an purpose of torque in the same paragraph. If it is ours? Where do we start. As for heaven or hell, knew I was going to hell, but with your book I know I am going nowhere. And the only thing that will be remembered is my legacy.
For me, death would be a transition fron the physical to the spiritual. As a Christian i expect an afterlife where I will meet many of my relatives again. I dont believe hell is a place of fire but merely a lesser state.
I’d add that it’s hard to come to grips with something so profoundly different from what we’ve known all our lives–continuous experience of our ongoing life in the world–as opposed to its cessation. It’s hard to imagine a stopped and past world, a world we’ve never known and never will. The world will little note nor long remember what we did here, but still we can’t quite imagine a world without us in it, the only world we’ve ever known.
People like Charles Darwin, and Dr Ehrman, who leave behind them a substantial bogy of work allowing others to understand their thinking processes, observations and conclusions live on in that sense after their deaths because they continue to communicate with others. I guess I should get back to finishing my family history which is all I will leave behind…
I’m still holding out hope that my beloved and deceased pooch, Loki, will magically appear in radiant splendour, to guide my astral body to the next world, which will hopefully look like Narnia, Middle Earth or a John Constable painting. At least something Agrarian and whimsical, with the occasional river flowing with chocolate milk. Hopefully, we won’t have to worry about diabetes in the afterlife.
What do *you* think happens immediately at death?
I think what the Michael Newton books have found through psychological case studies:
some can contact loved ones
one will be prepared for the adjustment to the new living environment, the new reality
with more advanced beings, one will review one’s past incarnation
one may stay in that place
or one may choose to reincarnate
one will not see the Biblical Jesus
(Yes, in the case studies there is a mention that no one has reported seeing Jesus.)
Reference:
The Newton Institute for Life Between Lives Hypnotherapy
Books:
Journey of Souls: Case Studies of Life between Lives
Destiny of Souls: New Case Studies of Life between Lives
Life between Lives: Hypnotherapy for Spiritual Regression
Wisdom of Souls: Case Studies of Life between Lives from the Michael Newton Institute
Memories of the Afterlife: Life between Lives Stories of Personal Transformation
Same Soul, Many Bodies by Weiss
The Dead Are Alive: They Can and Do Communicate with You! (1986)
by Harold Sherman
One Last Time
by John Edward, of Crossing Over television fame
Amazon reviewi:
The most interesting, well written insightful book I’ve ever read regarding mediumship. I always thought something was off with John Edwards and that maybe he was a little fake..but after he explained the way he gets his signs And how spirits communicate I have a better full understanding…and feel without a doubt he is the real deal. I walked away from this book with my grief lessened and being assured my loved ones who passed are more alive now than ever.
Another Amazon Review:
Try reading some of James Van Praaugh’s writings like Talking to Heaven, Proof of Heaven by Eben Alexander, M.D. and To Heaven and Back by Mary Neal, M.D. and see what you think. Those whom you have loved and missed so dearly who have passed are with you in more ways than you can ever know.
= = =
There was a television program by the name of Beyond:
https://youtu.be/TZZqqu8scVs
As long as I identify my sense of self with this little body and mind, death is inevitable. But if I can somehow change my thinking so that my sense of “I” is not limited to this body and mind, and instead self-identify with all of existence, then I’m effectively immortal, because existence itself will still be around after the death of my body. As part of my faith, Hinduism (more specifically, Vedanta), I try to gradually expand my sense of self to be more universal. We are already that universal existence; the trick is just to internalize that idea. Having that realization at a deep, experiential level (not just a philosophical level) is what in my faith is considered to be salvation.
I think it is short-sighted to think it all just ends. Nothing comes from nothing, nothing ever could (Julie Andrews, Sound of Music). So, there must have been something good, and will be again. It depends on how focused you are. You might see all of Sahansdal Kanwal, heaven world one, or even Trikuti, heaven number two, but if all you want is sex with heavenly nymphs, you will probably get to be a rabbit in your next life.
Despite being a Christian, I am very attracted to the idea of reincarnation which I know is not part of Christian dogma. However, there is a body of evidence, such as that gathered by Ian Stevenson, which includes convincing accounts of young children recalling past lives in considerable detail, some of which was verifiable. An impressive case involved an Australian women who, under hypnosis, was able to speak in a medieval French dialect, despite having no expertise in foreign languages. I have occasional flashbacks to past lives. Either the aforementioned evidence consists of elaborate hoaxes, or it represents channelled information (which is also supernatural) or reflects actual cases of reincarnation. So, that’s my gut feeling. We come back to do it all again after a brief inter life review.
My ex-wife died about 2 hours ago in the palliative care facility after struggling with idiopathic lung disease for about 10 years. One instant she was alive. A microsecond later she was dead. She doesn’t exist anymore.
I am SO sorry for your loss. I hope she was at peace at the end.
She had her family, our kids and grandkids in the hospital room when she passed. When the end came it was quick. The sedatives helped a lot.
I am sure that I won’t be able to
experience my own non-existence.
The most likely scenario is that I will
go back to the state before I was born. Universe doesn’t owe me a thing. If
anything, I owe my life to a supernova.
Death as unpleasant as it sounds is
still a better alternative to a life in
presence of a being who demands a
certain behavior for all eternity. I just
couldn’t do it. The only sad part is there
are so many great questions we want an
answer to before we die. How did life
begin on earth? was it a comet, a
meteorite that carried the blue print
for life? Is string hypothesis ( not theory) correct? Apart from few places on earth,
is there intelligent life else where in the
vast of universe? how about time
travelling? Most importantly, will
manchester City ever win the European champions league? Paraphrasing the
great Sean Carrol :
I would have liked very much if I could
live for 10000 years , there are whole
bunch of things I want to learn and to
do but living for all eternity isn’t one of them.
I am extremely undecided about what happens immediately after death. I fear divine judgment and the possibility of hell. On a more positive note, I wonder if I might suddenly have a clear, transcendent understanding of the whole of reality. A deep sense of peace would be nice.
I’ve often thought that Epicurus got it right. It’s better to accept that death is the end than to spoil one’s life worrying about what might happen afterward, eg, hell. .
What I probably work on the most is mediation on and mindfulness of the present moment with a Buddhist flavor. I have this idea that, if I’m able to lose my ego, I could get to the point where I don’t worry about death because I don’t actually exist.
In many ways reincarnation seems most logical in terms of justice and in terms of progressing toward some ultimate goal.
Someone, maybe Seneca, said that to study philosophy is to learn how to die. I was a philosophy major in college in the 70s.
Maybe nothingness. I won’t be around to experience anything anyway. Stay in the present moment until then and I’ll never notice.
I remember my elementary school nuns telling us what heaven was like and what we could do and who we could see when we get there. It was nice at the time, and it’s still nice I suppose, but I don’t believe it now. I believe that when I finally close my eyes I will experience something akin to an unending dreamless sleep where I exist only in the memory of others. There are no unending sunny days. There is no speaking with those who came before me or will come after. There is no justice or better days for those we ignored and refused to help in this life.
I can’t believe this life is all there is, only because it seems implausible that there could be absolutely nothing, then life turning on like a lightbulb out of nowhere, then turning off, and once again absolutely nothing. Who turned on the light? Where did the light come from? I can’t see how this universe could possess the power to create itself from nothing. It would have to exist in order to have that power, which only pushes backwards the question of how it came into existence.
This is not an argument for a benevolent God, much less an “Intelligent Designer,” but at most a reality of some kind beyond the empirical world. We can’t really know what it is. But is it good? That may be the real concern
At this point we must rely on supposition more than logic. There are hints of goodness: the experience of beauty, for example. Also, a moral sense that appears to exist across cultures, even though very ill-defined and often ignored. None of this proves anything, but it may hint at something.
But what then about the existence of radical evil? That gets us into theodicy, which is beyond the scope of this post.
Interesting article on how consciousness may be fundamental to explaining the emergence of physical reality itself. If this idea holds any weight, everything remains on the table in speculating on what happens at death:
https://theconversation.com/could-consciousness-all-come-down-to-the-way-things-vibrate-103070
Well, this is certainly a nice topic for my first-ever post/comment.
I’m close to Dr. Ehrman, here: it seems most sensible to simply imagine a kind of sameness to whatever “I” “was” before I was born. Now, surely the getting there will be the difficult part at some point, but that *moment* of death (and thereafter) seems to only make sense as an absence, or a void altogether. I often think of Addie Bundren’s chapter in “As I Lay Dying,” where her father tells her that, “the reason for living was to get ready to stay dead a long time.” Or, as an old philosophy professor once suggested to me: “worm food!”
I have a different view. I see death as waking from a dream. It was the dream of my existence but what is beyond that is up for grabs. Could be there is nothing there until I imagine it.
I believe in a Father and Mother God l believe in reincarnation, our sixth sense and our third eye I used to believe in the devil but not anymore Now I believe in light gray and dark entities I believe in ghost I have personally witnessed them more than once in my life l believe in blessing others But most of all I believe in a Creator of love ❤
I guess I should expand on my thoughts of no life after death. I used to consider myself an OT Christian. I find that many Christians do not understand what that means, and I rarely do myself. If God exists then he only knows me while I am breathing. After I stop breathing He no longer knows me, but He might know my legacy. You might say, you can’t take it with you, but you sure can leave a lot behind. Now wil it be a mountain of trash or a foundation someone can build on.
Religion is big business. We can certainly see that it was in the first few centuries of the CE period. Why were some emperors so disgusted in Christians. Because they were not giving to the gods hence the gods were unhappy, and further the emperor was unhappy.
All Christians believe they are going to heaven, otherwise they would not be Christians. Other Christian because they do not want to go to hell. Why not be a Christian because we are human beings and not great apes.
Today to many people looking for a shortcut to paradise, when paradise is an unattainable employee incentive. IMHO
Just switch off.
Basically the same as when I fall to sleep each evening.
Yes this is a sweet spot with me, I contemplate it at least once every day. I used to believe in varying degrees of belief, that our consciousness survives physical death. Oh, the myriad of ways I thought this possible. Everything from a perfect physical world clone designed by G~d, to reincarnation into some random life, to returning to the only fundamental that exists, consciousness… To *log on* to the game again a la a virtual reality game like WoW or Sims. Sadly, I think the only thing we *experience* after death is the same thing we *experienced* before birth. Nothing. On the bright side, physics proves that energy can not be created nor destroyed, just changes form. So our energy; thoughts, emotions, desires, love, continues on in the universe, as does whatever physical energies remain. They are just changed and we are cognitive of none of it.
I don’t believe that we will ever be able to know for certain. Despite humans wanting to think that we know everything that can be possibly conceived in this universe, whether it’s through faith or science, we still fall considerably short of the mark of a complete knowledge of reality. We have traveled leaps and bounds in science in the past century, but there is still so much to explore. And of course, there are so many questions that we just never will be able to answer. Life after death is one of them. People can make reasonable conclusions based off philosophical arguments (ie. mind-body problem, cosmological, teleological, problem of evil) but no scientific, objective evidence can prove something that is impossible to prove or disprove (ie. what happens to us after death)
I did say *Sadly* in my entry post because we have been taught and conditioned in one way or another to expect so much more after we leave this life. But I am not sad over what I believe is the fact that we return to pre-birth, preconception state. If I lived a life with no wounds or scars and every day was almost Nirvana to me, perhaps I would be sad. Few of us live that life…it’s like winning the Powerball lottery as far as chances go. Many of us carry pain, some of us great pain. I lost my only child, my daughter to cancer when she was in her twenties. That was 7 years ago and the pain never goes away…I just carry on through it. I know my wife feels the same pain, and I can’t make it better for her. I love the notion of being able to be with my daughter again, but I’m not capable of buying into a belief system filled with illogical concepts. But I KNOW, if all conscious memory dies with my neurons, I will be free from that pain.
I have no recollection of existing before I arrived on planet earth. I have enjoyed my short time here and at my death I will never exist anywhere again. All of the proposals concerning eternal existence above the clouds or below the waters are purely religious myths.
This time a year ago an “overread” MRI was dire enough to refuse to consider debilitating treatment for the time remaining. (All that changed later with a second opinion, thank goodness.) I found myself looking forward to seeing departed loved ones again.
God is spirit. He created us in His image. Each of us has a spirit that returns to God at death. I do not know any of this but it’s what I believe. Such a belief makes death not all that frightening.
“… thank goodness …”
Yes, thank goodness! I’m so glad to hear that you’re OK.
When the DOMINANT Sapiens settled down, They were faced with great questions like
Why did we exist🤔?
What happens after death😳?
So some local answers started to pod out like: You get recycled and come again in another form of life (Hindu) (Far eastern)or
The air [= spirit which was perceived as the turn on switch of the body] would reside in a resting place until recalled to the body (Middle Eastern) or
The air [ =Spirit ] come back again to visit you (Aboriginals) or many other versions or
THAT IS IT when you die, you cease to exist.
Period
The imperative superiority among the Sapiens tend to EMOTIONALLY reject the vanishing option even though all scientific KNOWLEDGE point toward it.
When you put each & even collectively all sapiens together in perspective of our Milky Way Galaxy not to mention the universe. You would gasp with the reality that the whole earth 🌎 is COMPLETELY INSIGNIFICANT.
It is like one single bacteria on your arm thinking 💭 that your big city was designed & built for it in order to dominate its microscopic tiny dot on your arm.
The dark comedy is that it wants to believe that it will be resurrected to live indefinitely happy on a washed & perfumed version of you
I think that my brain dies and who I was dies with it. I have no expectation of an afterlife. If I continue to exist it is in the memories of the people who knew me. But who really knows until it happens? Maybe I will be pleasantly surprised.
I feel the same. I think nothing happens. Our brains cease working, and our consciousness (whatever that is) just stops. We simply cease to be. In a way, that’s comforting. When I was a kid and believer, the idea of eternity was just too much for me. I couldn’t begin to grasp what that could possibly mean, let alone find it appealing. And hell? Too scary. I’ll take nothing.
Imagine time reversed in the very distant future. The earth is uninhabitable, and barren. But gradually the bits and pieces that made the planet friendly to life return, and then the bits and pieces that composed our bodies reassemble, and the consciousness that faded away eons ago reappears. It’s very much like the process that gets us here in the first place: scattered components assemble, a consciousness and a distinct “person” emerges. That process might have been very unlikely but in an infinite universe with unbounded time spans available, anything that has a finite probability, even on the order of 0.00000…00000000…0001, WILL appear. So, we might all have been here before, living lives much like the lives we have now, some identical and some with every possible variation expressed. And it goes on and on, world without end. I’ve got a feeling that’s what happens. Subjectively, it’s birth and life and birth and life on and on into infinity. Maybe.
The Romans had it right:
non fui, fui, non sum, non curo.
In a recent Science journal, I was captivated by an article on aging. Interestingly, on a molecular level, scientist are working diligently on trying to stop the aging process,or better still, reverse it, to prolong life. Imagine, some day it may not be unusual to live 150 or 200 years. I find that amazing. On another note, we wonder what happens to consciousness and the brain. Do they seize to exist or does it never die? What gives them life and more importantly, where does the faculty and inherent capability, that no other animal possess, stem from? We are truly special in every sense. No matter what our beliefs may be. Frankly, there may be an answer out there,which we have not discovered. The interconnection between nature and humanity is well attested and utilized and necessary for our being here,( Nitrogen, Oxygen,Carbon dioxide). No other planet,that we know of, can accomodate us in every aspect of our survival. When my time is up, I like to leave the possibilities open,on what happens, knowing when close family and friends are grieving over my grave, death may seem more acceptable.
I currently agree with the anaethesia concept for myself, but as for so many things in my life there is ebb and flow about how I view death, especially when I expand the thought beyond myself. To go off on a tangent, I often watch Henry Louis Gates show “Finding Your Roots” ( a show about ancestry) . Each show has a time when Gates asks the person he has researched how they feel about the ancestors he has found for them.
Usually they have no previous knowledge of their ancestors from long ago, however, most of the time there is an emotional reaction to the new found knowledge of the ancestors. It highlights the possibility that more elaborate projections of death are historically/emotionally important to others. I often wonder what drives so many cultures to develop a belief in an afterlife/or a ongoing relationship of some kind with there past kinsmen.
My husband and I have had conversations that are all about wondering. Wondering is all we have. We admit we know nothing of what happens after we stop breathing, because we still breathe. Our experiences with our loved ones who have died gives us a thought that maybe their energy isn’t gone like their consciousness and bodies are gone. I wonder if the residual energy is responsible for dreams, inspirations, visions, strong feelings of presence. It is hard to explain away some of those strange happenings if everything about us stops existing, so I am left to think that there is an energy that remains. It makes sense… but I have no proof… like I said.. I am still breathing. Heaven and Hell stopped making sense a long time ago.
I tend to think that after my life ends, that will be the end of “me”. However, I have read with interest some of the works of Dr. Jim Tucker, who has tried to bring scientific rigor to reports of young children who seem to remember a past life. Several of the cases he discusses appear to be best explained by reincarnation. So, although I’m a bit of a skeptic, I am open to the possibility. However, I note that no one really knows what happens after death, despite claims to the contrary.
I don’t know what happens immediately after death; any thoughts I might have about it would therefore be fatuous.
The best description of this not knowing, for me, is in Bede’s Ecclesiastical History, where a Saxon chief talks about human life being like the flight of a stray sparrow through the king’s banqueting hall on a winter’s day:
‘…This sparrow flies swiftly in through one door of the hall and out through another. While he is inside, he is safe from the winter storms; but after a few moments of comfort, he vanishes from sight into the wintery world from which he came. Even so, man appears on earth for a little while; but of what went before this life or of what follows, we know nothing.’
(My quotation is from the Penguin Classics ed, revised 1990.)
I am a 56 year old atheist. My view of the after life is best summed up in a popular inscription that many Romans put on their tombstones: I was not (before I was born), then I have been, now I am not again, and I really don’t care.
I admit that my view on life after death is informed by wishful thinking, and therefore I may be guilty of motivated reasoning. That being said, I do believe that we move on in some form, and that we are not limited to our natural lives on Earth. As the (non-inspired and fallible) author of Ecclesiastes surmised, “You have placed eternity on our hearts.” The universal human desire to persist beyond the physical body is, I suspect, an echo of a grander desire for continued existence.
I am also informed by the study of NDEs, which I do not believe can be readily dismissed a la Neal deGrasse Tyson as hallucinations formed by lights above the operating table. I refer to the research put forth by Dr. Bruce Greyson, M.D. in “After” and the out-of-body experiences of those pronounced clinically dead who then returned. There are enough commonalities among these NDEs, even across cultures, to suggest that these experiences are real. They point to an existence that transcends the four dimensions of spacetime we perceive and a realm of “information space” where we continue to live and grow.
I admit I can’t confirm any of this. It inspires me nonetheless.
Bill Hicks – It’s Just A Ride
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgzQuE1pR1w
Thankyou Prof Ehrman. A good question – which reveals much – the key word being THINK, I think! We all hear lots about what people believe or hope or feel on sooo many topics (often presented as thoughts) but what any of us THINK is what can be explained, questioned, reasoned, persuaded, understood, even challenged. The Ancients were on the money when they observed that what you think, you are.
And, re your question, I think nobody knows nor can we know since we have no evidence that passing from life to death is anything other than a One Way street. Biological yearnings & the drive for life so much pushes back to want otherwise but too bad! I agree with your expressed view that it’s likely nothingness – as indeed aligns with the views of ancient Hebrews & Jews. BUT the point of this is not to waste much time on it! All life is in the Present.
I often think that NOT to be resigned to one’s mortality is a mixture of tragedy & stupidity – to fear something that is inevitable & yet not to resolve it the mind. It’s the great inevitability & nobody has an excuse.
My father’s death haunts me. He suffered severe heart attacks and spend the last year trailing an oxygen tank behind him. He collapsed on the floor before the paramedics revived him. This was 1985. Dad was given an intravenous drug that made him bright and clear and feeling as if he were cured. The doctors told us they would have to take him off the drug in a week or he’d suffer renal failure. So what was the point? Without asking us, they thought it would give us a chance to say goodbye. It actually ended up being torture for my father. Once the drug was withdrawn, he knew he was dying. He was given a morphine drip for his pain and hallucinated horribly about being consumed by bugs. In his final moments, fresh from the memory of having been revived, he screamed out, “Don’t let me die,” even as his religious friends held his hand and prayed. Then he began to lose consciousness, his eyes glazed over, his breathing sputtered, and then stopped. He was finally dead. I hope my own is like being put under Propofol.
Thank you for writing this because I was reading all the comments above including Dr. Ehrman’s and wondering how no one else had experienced this. I was at my Mom’s hospital bedside for 4 days straight before she left us July 2, 2021, and she suffered horribly – it definitely was not like being put under general anesthetic, and when she took her last breath she scrunched her face up as if she was in severe pain. The only comfort I have is that just moments before she passed, a double rainbow appeared out the hospital window, completely out of nowhere, and I told her “Mom, it’s gonna be okay, the angels have come to take you home and I will meet you there at our favorite spot”.
I am SO sorry to hear it. I absolutely do not think that dying is like being under general anesthesia. I think the state of death is. And I believe your mother has absolutely no pain now.
I find it impossible to imagine the “state of death” but have great anxiety about the process of getting there, especially after being with my father through a psychologically and physically painful experience. When I think of death and dying, it is the process that, well, frightens me. I have no fear of the outcome. One simply cannot comprehend non-existence, but being conscious of dying is something I hope to avoid. Unlike my father, my sister had on her glasses watching TV, laid back, and never woke up. I am sure she had no awareness as the light of thought vanished. I hope to go that way.
Lights out. I will taste nothing, smell nothing, hear nothing, feel nothing, see nothing. I will finally begin to give back to the earth that I’ve been taking from my entire life. Don’t burn me up. Put me in the ground. I hope to push up a few daisies. Think of me fondly!
“ Jesus explicitly identified himself as a divine being”
John10:27-30 “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:” “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” “My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.” “I and my Father are one.”
Context: Jesus followers, obey his teachings, guide them to eternal life, in good hands, no one can take them away. Similarly, God gave the followers to Jesus, none can take them away from God because “I and my father are one” jointly in one purpose/objective to give the followers eternal life. NOTHING DIVINE.
Same Greek word one ένας in John 17:21-22 “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:”
JESUS DENY DIVINE: John5: 30 “I(Jesus) can of mine own self do nothing.”
Mark13: 32 “But of that day(Doomsday) and that hour know no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”
I honestly don’t have a belief system of what happens after we die. When I was a practicing Christian – especially when IO was an evangelical- I thought I’d go to Heaven or Hell. As I moved into Anglicanism my belief was one of resurrections and a new life here on Earth. Now I don’t know except that I’d like to think we’re more than just some dirt held together by water and electricity firing in out brains.
My vision is that after death maybe we are reunited with all who came before in some sort of cosmic stuff. We high five – if we have hands – and talk about our experiences here on Earth.
” Oh man! I can’t believe all the things you did down there.”
” I know right? Maybe I’ll do it again sometime. Oh yeah, time doesn’t exist.”
Or something like that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFkcAH-m9W0
I was a highway man, along the coach roads I did ride…..
Trigger warning! (Bart, feel free to take this down if you think it appropriate.)
I have had general anesthesia more times than I care to remember. More than that, though, I deliberately overdosed a number of years ago. It took everything first responders and ER docs had in order to bring me back. I have been told that if I were ever going to have an NDE that would have been the time. Nothing. Zero. And I believe that’s exactly what happens. Movie’s over. Lights out.
Rather than pinning my hopes on some sort of afterlife, I have learned that it’s more important to work on the here and now. I just lost my sister who lived a life of torment, always eying that day when she would “see” those who have gone before. What saddens me is that she ** could ** have had a bit of that afterlife while she was alive. Since I don’t think there is an afterlife, I feel like she wasted an opportunity to live a better life if she had lived for life itself.
I was looking at the stars on a moonless night high up in Sierra Nevada mountains it was so incredibly clear, I had never seen so many stars! I was unable to tell the dead one’s from those still burning brightly and I wondered if that was what death was like. Is the visible light aware that its source is dead? Would it matter? I don’t think so. I’ll just go off, I won’t be aware I’m not aware. I’ll be alive in those who have memories of me. Afterlife isn’t important to me, but life is so I do my best to enjoy each day I get. My imagination can create all kinds of afterlife scenarios, just like people have been doing since there were people. It’s kind of reassuring that nobody’s ever come back from death complaining about it. I think I might enjoy dog heaven.
I don’t know what happens after death. This ignorance can be an effective source of anxiety sometimes after having been a Christian who “knew 100%” where he was going when he died. For me, the thoughts and teachings of Socrates, the stoics, and Epicurus, along with modern writers like Bertrand Russell and Christopher Hitchens have been helpful in countering the anxiety. Still, the alternatives of death and eternity can be scary. Like Epictetus said, “People are strange; they neither wish to live or die.”
When I was a preschooler (now aged 76), I drowned while on a family outing to a popular swimming place. Fortunately, my uncle was an Indiana State Police patrolman who had lifesaving training. He was able to resuscitate me. Before that, I had a clearly remembered experience. My consciousness awoke suspended above the surface close to what must have been the center of the body of water. The place where all my relatives should have been gathered was devoid; no one was there. I remember asking myself why they would all go away and leave me. Then I noticed something was wrong with the light; it had a greenish cast and seemed not to come from any source. It was just everywhere. There was no one, no sound, no movement, and neither could I move. This state of affairs did not seem to upset me, and if it had continued, I think I would have been OK with it. Then I felt like a cranky child again, and I woke up wrapped in a towel next to my mother. I demanded, “Where did everybody go?” She did not understand the question. Make of that what you will.
We all have our own perspective of what happens immediately after death. I don’t think any are wrong, neither do I think any are right. I believe the answer to that question cannot be answered truthfully by any of us.
I thought perhaps a better title would be, ‘What happens right after death.’ As a hospice chaplain for the past fifteen years and hospital chaplain prior to that I can provide a fairly accurate description of the physiological death process but it’s the moment the breath no longer returns that, “puzzles the will.” First, I give little credence to the ‘near death experience’ as a guide for various reasons, but “near death experience’ expresses it all. It’s ‘near’ death, not death and that disqualifies it. My role as chaplain brings me to the bedside of the dying and I observe, not only the family but the dying for any clue, hint, sign or evidence of the soul (for lack of a better term), surviving physical death and after forty years I have seen nothing to confirm or deny conscience existence post death. On this question I’m a committee agnostic. I have no clue what lies beyond. Death keeps its secrets. Hamlet’s words come to mind:
But that the dread of something after death.
The undiscovered country from whose bourn
No traveler returns, puzzles the will.
Hamlet, III, i,56
On January 7th, 2016 I had cardiac arrest and had no vitals for minutes. A woman who happened to be a nurse gave me CPR until the paramedics arrived. Was I dead? Technically, I guess so. What I experienced during this time was unlike anything I have experienced. Unlike general anesthesia where you’re out, and then awake, there was consciousness wherever “I” went. It was dark, with no sense of warm or cold, just contented ness and calm. It was almost a meditative state in which you just are. I felt whole and complete. It was my own voice that disrupted the tranquility, screaming, to “Go!” The blackness shifted to murky, as my voice got louder. Then I crashed through to brightness and back to life, and so much pain. The whole experience is most likely just my oxygen deprived synapses continuing to fire after I lost consciousness and my heart stopped. However, it took away my fear of what happens after death. For me, if it’s simply the blackness I experienced, that’s enough. There was a sense of wholeness, completeness and safety.
No one knows. Despite the stories in the Bible, no one has come back from the dead to tell us what death is like. Nor has anyone made provable contact with someone who has died.
I can more easily accept that the world existed before I did than that it will continue to exist after I die, little caring about my short existence as a living person.
While the thought of dying is rather unpleasant, after it happens I do not think I will be in any position to know or care.
Nobody knows what happens after their last breath, if anything. Probably nothing. There is no good reason to hope for anything after we die. It may just be lights out forever. I can accept that. I’m not afraid of that. I don’t need to believe in an afterlife. I’m thankful for the time I have and believe we can and should live each day and love others as if today was our last day.
“In 200 years from now I will be experiencing exactly what I was experiencing 200 years ago: nothing at all. I won’t be ecstatic and full of vigor and I won’t be upset and weepy. That wasn’t disturbing to me before, it won’t be disturbing to me then.”
I think, Bart, I would say that 200 years ago I didn’t exist. There was then no “I” to experience or not experience anything. There were then only “they’s”. And yes, the same will be true 200 years hence.
When I was young, Bart, my grandmother told me a couple of stories about her grandfather, a man who fought in the American Civil War. “He went in a sergeant and came home a colonel!” she told me, her eyes dancing with pride. Two hundred years hence, I doubt anyone will even remember any stories told about me. All things pass. Including, certainly, me.
Thanks so much for your question! <3
Physiologist and the like can explain in detail the electrochemical processes within my largest nerve lump that I perceive through those same processes as thought; and, which through a learned behavior of language based introspection (according to Jaynes) becomes consciousness. So, when those processes stop so stops the thought and thus consciousness.
Epicurius quote the Romans memorialized as “Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo” is thus close but would probably better be “ I was not, I was, I am not, I can not care…
Then again, that nerve lump got seriously bent by reading Jaynes “ The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind“ so who knows.
I THINK: as pre- conception, so post-death.
If E=MC2, then when we die our body (mass) becomes energy. Where this energy goes, is unclear – perhaps in the conscious realm where it can be recycled or remain eternally.
Death means death which implies that you cannot hear, see, feel, touch, or taste. That is death to me. This too can be meant as a goner, your existence is over, your memories only serve good to others as memories. For example: the good things that I have done to others will serve them as the good I have done to them and others. And likewise in bad ways. To me death is like saying bye bye to your childhood self. Why? You cannot reverse your adulthood to childhood, you can only have memories of your childhood.
Completely agree with you. I lost my parents in my teens. They loved me. They could have given me a hint after they crossed over. A few years later, my brother was near his end and we had a conversation about this. He promised if there was a Heaven, he would find a way to convey that to me. Nothing.
My belief and reasoning is that there are other dimensions that some part of us slips into upon death. This is based on my personal experiences, the experiences of others and several scientific principles.
First the science. According to most theoretical physicist, in order for string theory to work, there have to be more than ten dimensions. This hasn’t been proven because the math is too complicated to be developed yet.
Also, scientists have measured the amount of energy and matter in the universe and believe that more energy is being created. One explanation is that it is leaking from another dimension.
Second are my and other peoples metaphysical experiences. I had two ghost experiences that were as real as me typing this. I know people who’ve had similar experiences including being DOA and coming back to life.
My sister was diagnosed with breast cancer several years ago and went to a support group. She was told that she would find dimes between her feet. All during her treatments she and her husband consistently found dimes between her feet. One explanation is that our mother was reaching back from another dimension to show support.
I once had a near-death experience in an ER – long story. It did not make me think that there is life after death. It did make me believe that to live a good life – the only one I will have – I had better be more careful! I do not think that my consciousness,ego or personality will still exist and have awareness forever.
Matter and energy will still exist. So when my consciousness shuts off for the final time, the universe will begin its work of recycling the matter/energy formerly configured as “me”. That’s what I think, and I find it comforting.
Dr. Erhman, I am an agnostic and I do not know if there is a God or life after death. I have been reading books on near death experiences recently. I am sure all of us would love to reed your thoughts on this subject in more details.
I deal with it a bit, but only a small bit, in my book Heaven adn Hell. I read a ton of books on NDEs for my research , and came to realize that they can all be explained on physiological/scientific grounds quite easily.
Evolution took millions of years to produce a human body and gave us only 100 years to live. Why? Evolution gave us CONSCIOUSNESS (the greatest gift), but takes it aways from us at death. Why?
The end is going to come to each of use, and that is undeniable. We are all going to die. I hold to the thought that once my breath is gone, my essence, I will simply cease to exist. Perhaps I will experience odd sensory perceptions a brief moment before consciousness is extinguished, but I don’t believe that to be indicative or proof of an afterlife. More likely it would be hallucinations caused by my brain slowly losing its blood/oxygen flow. Once everything has settled, and the breath has left, all that will remain are memories of me inside those who still live. I will simply be no more.
On a lighter note, comedian Jim Jefferies said in his stand-up special I Swear to God (worth the watch), “I won’t even know I’m dead. You know why? Because I’ll be F**king dead!”
Apologies for coming back with more to say, but the most impressive thing I ever read on this subject was the closing paragraph of J.S Mill’s The Utility of Religion. I believe he said all that reasonably needs to be said in the clearest way possible.
I highly recommend the whole essay. Also, for the undecided, Freddy Mercury’s great song Who Wants To Live Forever, which can be answered yes, no or maybe and still make sense:).
I believe in God in some form even though I have little faith in my church. So death is not something I fear. There are many stories of people leaving their bodies and traveling around. My wife has these experiences. So death might be a similar thing.
But I may also be wrong about this and find nothing after I die. I´m ok with that as well.