I have begun to discuss the evidence provided by the early church father Papias that Mark was actually written by Mark. He appears to be the first source to say so. Does he? And if so, is he right?
Here’s how I begin to discuss these matters in my book Jesus Before the Gospels (edited a bit here).
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Papias is often taken as evidence that at least two of the Gospels, Matthew and Mark, were called by those names already several decades after they were in circulation.
Papias was a Christian author who is normally thought to have been writing around 120 or 130 CE. His major work was a five-volume discussion of the teachings of Jesus, called Exposition of the Sayings of the Lord. [1] It is much to be regretted that we no longer have this book. We don’t know exactly why later scribes chose not to copy it, but it is commonly thought that the book was either uninspiring, naïve, or theologically questionable. Later church fathers who talk about Papias and his book are not overly enthusiastic. The “father of church history,” the fourth-century Eusebius of Caesarea, indicates that, in his opinion, Papias was “a man of exceedingly small intelligence” (Church History, 3.39).
Our only access to Papias and his views are in quotations of his book in later church fathers, starting with the important author Irenaeus around 185 CE, and including Eusebius himself. Some of these quotations are fascinating and have been the subject of intense investigation among critical scholars for a very long time. Of relevance to us here is what he says both about the Gospels and about the connection that he claims to have had to eyewitnesses to the life of Jesus.
In one of the most famous passages quoted by Eusebius, Papias indicates that instead of reading about Jesus and his disciples in books, he preferred hearing a “living voice.” He explains that whenever knowledgeable people came to visit his church, he talked with them to ask what they knew. Specifically he spoke with people who had been “companions” of those whom he calls “elders” who had earlier been associates with the disciples of Jesus. And so Papias is not himself an eyewitness to Jesus’ life and does not know eyewitnesses. Writing many years later (as much as a century after Jesus’ death), he indicates that he knew people who knew people who knew people who were with Jesus during his life. So it’s not like having firsthand information, or anything close to it. But it’s extremely interesting and enough to make a scholar sit up and take notice.
Richard Bauckham [In his book Jesus and the Eyewitnesses] is especially enthusiastic about Papias’s testimony, in part because he believes that Papias encountered these people long before he was writing, possibly as early as 80 CE, that is, during the time when the Gospels themselves were being composed [Papias himself, as you can probably guess, says nothing of the sort]. Bauckham does not ask whether Papias’ memory of encounters he had many decades earlier was accurate. But as that is our interest here, it will be important to raise the questions ourselves.
Two passages from Papias are especially important, as Bauckham and others have taken them to be solid evidence that the Gospels were already given their names during the first century. At first glance, one can see why they might think so. Papias mentions Gospels written both by Mark and by Matthew. His comments deserve to be quoted here in full. First on a Gospel written by Mark.:
This is what the elder used to say, “when Mark was the interpreter [Or: translator] of Peter he wrote down accurately everything that he recalled of the Lord’s words and deeds – but not in order. For he neither heard the Lord nor accompanied him; but later, as I indicated, he accompanied Peter, who used to adapt his teachings for the needs at hand, not arranging, as it were, an orderly composition of the Lord’s sayings. And so Mark did nothing wrong by writing some of the matters as he remembered them. For he was intent on just one purpose: not to leave out anything that he heard or to include any falsehood among them.” (Eusebius, Church History, 3. 39)
Thus, according to Papias, someone named Mark was Peter’s interpreter or translator (from Aramaic?) and he wrote down what Peter had to say about Jesus’ words and deeds. He did not, however, produce an orderly composition. Still, he did record everything he ever heard Peter say and he did so with scrupulous accuracy. We will see that these claims are highly problematic, but first consider what Papias says also about a Gospel by Matthew:
And so Matthew composed the sayings in the Hebrew tongue, and each one interpreted [Or: translated] them to the best of his ability. (Eusebius, Church History, 3. 39)
There are numerous reasons for questioning whether these passages – as quoted by Eusebius — provide us solid evidence that the New Testament Gospels were given their names in the late first or early second century.
First, it is somewhat curious and certainly interesting that Eusebius chose not to include any quotations from Papias about Luke or John. Why would that be? Were Papias’s views about these two books not significant? Were they unusual? Were they contrary to Eusebius’s own views? We’ll never know.
Second, it is important to stress that in none of the surviving quotations of Papias does he actually quote either Matthew or Mark. That is to say, he does not give a teaching of Jesus, or a summary of something he did, and then indicate that he found it in one of these Gospels. That is unfortunate, because it means that we have no way of knowing for certain that when he refers to a Gospel written by Mark he has in mind the Gospel that we now today call the Gospel of Mark. In fact there are reasons for doubting it, as I will show in my next post.
[1] See the Introduction and the collection of all the fragments of Papias that I give in The Apostolic Fathers, vol. 2 pp. 85-118.
Thanks Bart; I shall be looking forward to your further posts.
But some initial questions:
– can we be sure that Papias is talking about ‘Gospels’; in the portions of text quoted by Eusebius, the term ‘gospel’ does not occur?
– can we infer anything from the order of Eusebius two quotations? In mansuscripts we find two common gospel orders, Matthew–John–Luke–Mark and Matthew–Mark–Luke–John. It seems likely that Papias presented the two texts in an otherwise unknown order Mark-Matthew. Might that indicate his understanding of their order of composition? Might the opening of the second quotation “So Matthew..” imply a dependence on what had been written by Mark?
– can we infer anything from the distinction between Christs “words and deeds” which Mark arranges (i lechthénta í prachthénta) and his ordered “sayings” (logion) which Mark does not. Matthew by contrast does compose Christ’s “sayings” (logia).
Which might together lead us to speculate that Papias knew of a collection of “words and deeds” in the name of ‘Mark’; he believes as subsequently supplemented with collected systematic “sayings” in the name of ‘Matthew’?
Other readings are available; but might not Papias have been partially correct?
1. Ah, right. Eusebius himself indicates that Papias was referring to a Gospel (and he apparently had read Papias himself), both in the fragment I mentioned and at Church History 2.15. 2. Eusebius is citing two different places in Papias’s writings and so does not appear to be giving us any sequence of the order in which he found them. In any event, it would be unlikley that there would be a codex copy of Matthew and Mark bound together already by 120 or so. 3. Yup, it looks like his Mark is something like our Gospel and his Matthew is … not. And yup, some people have wondered: is this business about Matthew actually referring to Q? Could be, except Q too was circulated, so far as we know, in Greek, not Hebrew.
In the series “The Chosen” former tax collector Matthew follows Jesus around and writes down his observations of miracles. We even see Matthew writing Jesus sermon on the mount speech. Is it possible Matthew who must have been literate was forming doc which eventually became Q?
I don’t think here’s anything to suggest Matthew was literate. People say that if he was a tax collector, he must have been. But most tax collectors were the guys who banged on your door and demanded money. They could certainly count and recognize coinage, but they did not have to be able to read, let alone write. Being able to compose a sentence, let along a book, took years of educatoin in antiquity, and only elite urban folk, as a rule. received the training.
A very interesting topic.
Two questions if I may.
1. I understand the arguments why critical scholars think the author of Mark was a gentile. But I’ve wondered why a gentile convert would take as his main theme a redefinition of the Jewish concept of the Messiah. He clearly assumes a certain familiarity with Jewish scriptures on the part of his audience. Sure he’s dicey on Palestinian geography and customs but that could just mean that he grew up somewhere else. In your opinion what would speak against the possibility that the author of Mark was a Hellenized Diaspora Jew like Paul?
2. Are you at all swayed by Joel Marcus’ arguments for a Syrian provenance?
Thanks!
1. It became a very common thing to do in Christianity. Since Christians understood that they were adopting the religion of the God of Israel, they had to explain why the people of Israel themselves got it wrong. 2. I think Joel’s commentary is the best thing out there by a wide margin, but I don’t think we have enough to go on to pinpoint Mark’s location.
Is it then completely discarded that Mark could have been written in Aramaic at first, and then translated to Greek ( with some Latin connections, I read)?
If ” Mark” was written in Aramaic at first, it could still indicate that Mark was Jewish ( even if a Jew, why would he be supposed to know what all the Jews did, such as with hand washing?). Secondly, it would point back to the possibility that John Mark, secretary of Peter, was the original author.
Yes, it probalby would indicate both things; but no, comparative linguists are confident that Mark is an original Greek composition. There may be some scholars who think otherwise (it would be weird if no scholar could be found for *any* one position or another), but off hand I don’t know of any….
Papias knew about Matthew and Mark, but apparently did not mention anything about John and Luke ( I don’t think Eusebius would omit Papias’s statements about Luke or John) .
The first two books in our NT are Matthew and Mark.
Even if he was wrong in details about Matthew and Mark, the fact that by such an early date he mentioned them and only them is remarkable.
He was a kind of prophet of the future assembly of the christian canon?
I think it is the other way around, the church somewhat knew these two were the oldest (pro orthodox) gospels and this is why they were put in that order.
When Papias talks about “Mark” he refers to the same Mark we have in the NT?
Well, hard to say, but it could not be something very different from what Matthew and Luke used for their gospels.
Why did he not mention anything about John and Luke?
Maybe by the time Papias wrote his work he did not know them ,they were not written or not so widespread known as the other two older gospels. Or maybe because being newer than Matthew and Mark Papias did not rely so much on them.
I can think of lots of reasons Eusebius would omit any comments Papias may have made about Luke and John, if he made them. He omitted most of what Papias said, and indicates that Papias was a highly unintelligent fellow — i.e., Eusebius frequently disagreed with him.
Yes, Eusebius thought that Papias was a highly unintelligent fellow and frequently disagreed with him , but he did not hesitate in quoting him about Mark and Matthew even when these quotes are so weird you don’t think Papias speaks about the Mark and Matthew that made into the NT.
Why would he not quote Papias abouts Luke and John ?
How weird or unorthodox these quotes could be?
Even so, he could omit the parts he did not like.
There is a statistical approach to the problem too.
Papias quotes are not about Mark and John, Matthew and Luke or John and Luke.
There are 6 possible arrangements taking pairs of gospels from the 4 in the NT.
Mark and Matthew is just one of those arrangements , and these are exactly the first two gospels in the NT.
Luke started his gospel by stating
“MANY have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us.. “
So Luke evidently knew more than one gospel.
Imagine Luke asking for one of these gospels to the person in his christian community in charge of the scripts.
Can you bring me the one who starts “The beginning of the good news about Jesus …” ?
No way.
It is not hard to imagine that early christians somewhat “labeled” the “many… accounts” Luke refers to in his gospel.
Even when “is striking about these quotations [by the Patristicc fathers] is that in none of them does any of these authors ascribe a name to the books they are quoting” it would be more striking for the various gospel remain for about a century with no kind of label ascribed to them.
Firstly just want to say I listened to your recent course on Mark and thought it was excellent! Loads of interesting material and lots to think about. Thanks for making this available.
Secondly, if Papias isnt referring to our Mark and Matthew, why are Matthew, Mark and Luke usually dated before 90AD? I get that they are quoted by church fathers in the late 2nd century but a dating of 90-120 would give enough time for them to circulate wouldn’t it? Is it because they lack any discussion of 2nd century christian issues but instead have apocalyptic elements?
Ah, their date is unrelated to their authors. They are dates on a range of considerations; for one thing 1 Clement (almost certainly written in the mid 90s) quotes words of Jesus otheriwse known from Matthew and or Luke; so too the Didache, ca. 100 CE. If these passages do indicate a knowledge of theseGospels they would have had to be in circulatoin earlier. (There continue to be apocalyptic writings among Xns long after the 1st c., btw.)
Thanks. I have now finished the last lecture from the Mark course which covers this question!
It’s reassuring to learn that a man of ‘exceedingly small intelligence’ has become a pivotal figure (at least for us) in early Christian history. There’s hope for us all 🙂. Papias is my hero.
Reading some more on Mark 4:11-12 from
“Hard Sayings of Jesus” by F.F.Bruce, I read something that amazed me:
Mark 4:11-12 appears to be derived from Isaiah 6:9-10.
God tells Isaiah:
” Go, and say to this people: ” Hear and hear, but do not understand;see and see,but do not perceive”.Make the heart of this people fat,
and their ears heavy,and shut their eyes;lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears,and understand with their hearts,and turn and be healed”.
Or ,according to some other translation,
” and turn and be forgiven”.
WOW! How to interpret this? Seems too much coincidence that word for word this saying happened to have been reproduced by random.
How do we sort out who actually said this?
Mark contributing his own story derived from Isaiah? Jesus telling this saying also inspired by Isaiah?
How should we see this?Perhaps it is also possible to interpret this hard saying as Jesus actually wanting the simple people to turn and be forgiven. It seems to depend on translations, including from Aramaic. Seen this way, it’s no longer a hard saying. Isaiah’s 40 year experience of not being listened to,Bruce says,becomes reproduced in Jesus’s ministry.
What thinks you?
Yes, Mark and the other NT writers were heavily influenced by Isaiah (Isaiah 53 plays a large role in how the passion narrative is constructed), and told the story of Jesus in light of it. Just in Mark — notice how it *begins*. John the Baptist is the fulfillment of Isaiah 40:3! But yup, 4:11-12 — students never see that it is saying that Jesus told parables SO THAT no one would repents, since OTHERWISE they would be forgiven! Whoa. But it’s built directly on Isaiah.
Maybe Mark just forgot to quote Isaiah. The first verse “‘To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside, everything comes in parables” may have been indeed said by Jesus.
But what should have followed perhaps is ” as it was prophesied ” or “as it is written” or ” have you never heard in the Scriptures”, after which an abridged – Mark’s- version of Isaiah 6:9-10 would have come.
Another thing that occurred to me, after reading the Isaiah passage in Hebrew, is that perhaps the apparent future tense of this passage, as it is translated, is actually a past tense, as in so many other Tanakh passages. In fact, it is most common than not to have future and past tenses interchanged in the Tanakh,compared to modern Hebrew ( perhaps in Medieval Hebrew as well. Nachmanides always sounds very modern to me .Even Esther does).In the case of Isaiah 6:9-10 this would change the entire meaning. Rather than being a prophecy, it would relate Israel’s frequent ignoring God or rebelling in the past.
Is something like this plausible?
The early Christians frequently use and build on Scripture without naming it, sometimes, apparently, with the expectation that their attentive readers will catch the allusion. As it turns out, that is a common technique broadly in ancient rhetoric — in Greek and Roman circles of high level oral and literary composition it was taught as a skill (not that Mark was on that level). As to Hebrew, I haven’t looked at the passage in Hebrew for a long time, but I will say that the perfect and imperfect tenses don’t always map on our past and future, as you know way better than I!
Thanks SO much for all these great answers!
I am quite taken by Mark and keep thinking on it,now with more clarity thanks to your explanations.
Just one thing I would clarify: I didn’t mean perfect vs imperfect.I meant, literally,future tense vs past tense.
For example, if the HB says “va *yedaber *Adonay el Moshe…” (and God spoke to Moses), *yedaber* in the HB is in the past tense (he spoke) but in modern Hebrew ,it is future tense,”he will speak”.
My points
1. Mark 4:12 cannot be considered a ” hard saying”.It’s just an unnecessarily literal translation of Isaiah.
2.Isaiah’s translation can vary.
For example, Matthew 13:14-15 quotes Isaiah as
“You will keep on hearing, but will not understand;
You will keep on seeing, but will not perceive;
(NB: next it sounds as both in the past and the present)
For the heart of this people has become dull,
With their ears they scarcely hear,
And they have closed their eyes,
( NB:what follows seems a contingent positive outlook,not a condemnation)
Otherwise they would see with their eyes,
Hear with their ears,
*And understand with their heart and return,
And I would heal them.”*
which would put an end to any thought of Jesus ” not wanting” the people
to be forgiven.
I must have been a Christian apologist in a past life!😊
As you know, biblical Hebrew doesn’t have a future tense, just perfect and imperfect. I don’t know modern Hebrew, so can’t say aything about it….
I find other cross-references,albeit shorter. It seems that being deaf, blind and obdurate is a long standing attribute of Israel, and it is so by God’s own design, according to Deuteronomy 29:4 and Isaiah 44:18.
Mark 8:18
Having eyes do you not see, and having ears do you not hear? And do you not remember?
Isaiah 44:18
They know not, nor do they discern, for he has shut their eyes, so that they cannot see, and their hearts, so that they cannot understand.
Jeremiah 5:21
“Hear this, O foolish and senseless people, who have eyes, but see not, who have ears, but hear not.
Deuteronomy 29:4
But to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear.
The ” easy” and benevolent answer to Jesus’ parables ( riddles?) policy in Mark is that Jesus understands the simple nature of most Israelites and, like every great teacher, he has chosen easily graspable stories for them. All well with that .
But: there is a possible dark side: that Jesus simplifies his accounts out of frustration and contempt, as per the ” hard saying”.
I also wonder what Isaiah’s state of mind was.
At least this time Mark is quoting Isaiah correctly, rather than in Mark 1, where he mistakenly quotes Malachi, crediting Isaiah.
How to process all this?
John Dominic Crossan has argued that the passion narratives of the Gospels are virtually pastiches of verses/passages of the Hebrew Bible, that the story of Jesus was constructed so as to appear to be fulfilling Scripture. I don’t know if he uses the term midrash for these particular narratives, but other people have.
I just ordered “Jesus Before the Gospels” because I expect, as the theme of this series of posts indicates, it may address a question that have rumbled around in my head for a while:
How much does the growth of Christianity correspond to the evolution of the posterity perspective of literature. In other words, do we have a stream of New Testament manuscripts from the first century through the invention of the printing press because that’s when it became culturally important to preserve literature for posterity. And it just so happened that, at that time, many authors wrote about Jesus because he was a good story at the time: like being the Marvel Comics of the first century.
My sense is that the early Christians wanted to preserve their sacred writings not because of their cultural imporance but for the religious — it was through them (in large part) that God communicated with people.
Yes it’s too bad we don’t have more of Papias’ writings. It appears he was something of a loose cannon, willing to report most any story that he heard from a “living voice” without much discernment as to what was plausible or theologically sound. Pretty clear that’s what offended Eusebius. But that’s what would make him so valuable to historians, who might sift his reports to find the plausible nuggets. Could his accounts about gospel origins fit into that category? He admits that the gospels were transmitted imperfectly (out of order, hard to interpret); perhaps the criterion of dissimilarity applies, making those accounts more believable?
Yes, the imperfections he attributes to them do make his comments unusually interesting, but these imperfectoins / dissimarities are never connected with the question we are most concerned about when it comes to issues of authorship. They are about the nature of the writings, not the names of the authors. They definitely need to be accounted for, and it appears that he knew of a Gospel of Mark and of a Gospel of Matthew, and new that they came under some criticism. He is explaining why these Gospels are the way they are. (But that in itself has no bearing on whether he was talking about the Gospels *we* have that are called Mark and Matthew)
Doesn’t the fact that Papias claims that Mark was Peter’s translator and wrote down what he said prove the possibility of people in the first century authoring a book in greek by helpers translating their words for them?
It might prove that someone in the early second century could imagine it happening. Whether it did or not is another question. The bigger problem is that the word he uses is more likely to mean “interpreter” than “translator.” It’s the word we get “hermeneutics” from; Peter was his “hermeneuticist”!
Bart: “The bigger problem is that the word he uses is more likely to mean ‘interpreter’ than ‘translator’.”
Just curious. Is there (an)other Greek word(s) that would better denote ‘translator’ as distinct from ‘interpreter’? Does Eusebius differentiate elsewhere? μεταφράζω (change the phrases!) perhaps? I’ve also seen μεταφέρω, μεταβάλλω, μεταγράφω, and μεθερμηνεύω used, and the last one can be used synonymously with ἑρμηνεύω (Jn 1,41.42).
Now THAT’s a great question. ερμηνεύω and μεταγραφω can both sometimes (not usually) mean “translate” but the nominal forms ερμηνεύς and ερμηνευτης do not occur as “translator” in Greek before the fourth century, I believe (first with Eusebius? never in non-Xn Greek that I can tell). the nominal form for μεταγράφω, μεταγραφευς occurs very rarely, just a few times?, and means copyist; I don’t think there is another nominal form. So I don’t know what word they would use for “translator.” I should ask someone!
But from the context isnt “translator” the better fit – “adapted his teaching the needs of his hearers” “matthew wrote in hebrew and everyone interpreted them as he was able”.
It would mean there are claims that peter composed a letter and had someone translate it into greek for him, and given papias nobody now is in a position to rule out that possibility.
Adapting words for someone’s needs normally refers to oral story tellers who alter their stories depending on their audience.
Hi Bart,
My internal sources give an authoritative answer:
Paul wrote all of Paul’s canonical letters (14). Hebrews was written to make piece with Peter with Paul on his death bed sick with illness, prisoner on a Roman military vessel.
John the Baptist (aka Apollos) wrote all the books attributed to “John”; He operated in Ephesus on the Cayster River (Jordon River is myth). The island of Patmos is off of Ephesus, and the 7 churches in Revelation of John are in almost a straight line in Asia Minor (Ephesus) region, Paul stumbles into worshippers of John the Baptist baptizing on the Cayster river north of Ephesus, Apollos who becomes a traveling companion of Paul was with the John the Baptist worshippers before joining friends of Paul in Ephesus and subsequently traveling with Paul. That’s 14+ 5 = 19
Synoptic gospels written by John Mark, Luke who also wrote Acts, “Matthew” written by Gaius (Paul companion). That’s 14+5+4=23
Of the remaining 4 books, 3 were forged by Gaius and Apollos, only James is authentic, written by brother of Jesus to knock down Paul.
The collection of 27 excepting John’s and Hebrews were evidenced at Paul’s trial in Rome, he was acquitted and did a 5th journey.
Dr. Ehrman,
(Prior to Mark, yet still pertaining to the Early Documents):
I know your position is that Paul and the others at least thought they really saw the bodily resurrected Jesus. Therefore, how would you respond to this? Brandon Scott’s treatment of 1 Cor. 15:5-8 in his book concludes that the key verb ophthe (which he translates “has been seen for”) “does not describe a physical seeing, but rather a revelation of what God has accomplished by raising the Anointed up from the dead”. Scott argues that this verb (which is used in the passive voice) comes from the Septuagint where it is frequently a formulaic phrase meaning “the lord [or God or angel of the Lord or glory of the Lord] has been seen for…” Scott writes “This leads us to conclude that ophthe, ‘he has been seen for’ in the LXX is a stereotyped or formulaic way of expressing a manifestation, experience or revelation of God’s revealing power. There is no indication of seeing in a physical sense.”
It is the aorist passive indicative of hORAŌ, a common verb for “to see” — so that the aorist passive means, literally “was seen,” but is often used to mean “appeared” The verb has no connotatoins about physical or spiritual or anyting else: it refers to something tha thas been seen with the eyes; but in the aorist passive it often is used for seeing something unusual — an angel, oses and Elijah, the coming Christ, a vision, God, etc. Most of the time it refers to a THING being seen though, not a “realizatoin”
Dr. Ehrman,
There’s no way to determine whether the seeing was objective or subjective by the language used in 1 Cor. 15:5-8. Is this correct?
I don’t know what that means. What is objective seeing vs. subjectve seeing? Isn’t seeing seeing?
I don’t know what that means. What is objective seeing vs. subjectve seeing? Isn’t seeing seeing?
Dr. Ehrman,
Let me rephrase.
There is no indication based on the Greek language used in 1 Cor. 15:5-8 as to whether or not the risen Jesus was experienced by Paul and the others in a common manner i.e. a being of material external to oneself vs. purely esoteric and internal revelatory experiences as Bernard Brandon Scott claims. Is this statement correct?
I believed I’ve already answered that a dozen times. Yes, Paul believed he was seeing a material external being.
oh Bart, I have just glanced thru all this…and while I think Crossan believes you say you don’t…
I bet the fifth race at Del Mar you do want to believe!
This glorious women has written this deal…”Dark Matters and The Dinosaurs”….who knows right?….because Luis Alvarez and his kid found that space junk cratering in the Yucatan ended the Cretaceous…some 66 million, or so, years ago…and WE, evolved from the surviving living stuff out of that era…
Basically right out of “Blade Runner”….we are here because of chance…
It is where we go after we die…cosmos of eternity…with all the other crap in the universe