Matthew Firth came up with interesting responses to my examples of contradictions in the Gospels (in the previous post); here now I try to show how his explanations simply don’t work.
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Thanks, Matt, for your thoughtful comments on the four contradictions I discussed in my opening post. I agree – this form of debate is much better than the oral back-and-forths I’m used to on a stage in front of an audience, where it’s so easy to say something unwittingly that is completely stupid or wrong. With this format I’m able to think about it a bit before saying something completely stupid!
I appreciate your attempts to reconcile the contradictions. For years I wished I could reconcile all the ones I found – and did my best to do so, using many of these kinds of arguments. I ended up thinking it just didn’t work. I’ll try to explain below why I think so, step by step. I’ve decided that it would be easier for readers of the blog to be able to compare your reconciliations with my responses directly, and so I have copied your comments and will be giving my responses in green so they will be easily distinguished.
Blog readers: this post will seem, as a result, twice as long as usual. But no need to read the whole thing if you don’t need to; my green responses are the only new ones. And so we begin:
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Thank-you very much, Bart, for your opening gambit. It has given me a most enjoyable afternoon of delving deeply into the Gospel texts, and I really appreciate the written format of this debate, which allows space for considered reflection, study and learning, rather than the rhetorical tennis of some other formats of debate which, while they produce spectacle, rarely achieve deep insight either for the proponents or the onlookers.
I will now take the cases in the order in which you proposed them.
- The case of Jairus’ daughter can, I think, be usefully looked at in terms of the Greek Text, Matthew’s practice of ‘telescoping’ stories about Jesus, and the emotional reality of the situation.
In Mark 5.23 we see that Jairus says ‘thugatrion mou eschatos echei.’ A wooden translation of this would be ‘my little daughter is at the end.’ In Matthew 9.18 we see that Jairus says ‘thugater mou arti eteleutesen.’ A wooden translation of this would be ‘my daughter just now died.’ But, the word ‘arti’ is not as rigid as one might think. It can mean ‘just now’ (immediate past), ‘now’ (immediate present), and it can also be used to suggest a sense of inevitable impending reality, as is the case in Matthew 3.15. This being the case, the word can be rendered ‘even now’. Also, while the word ‘eteleutesen’, being in the aorist tense, can simply be rendered ‘died’, it can also be used to create a sense of being at the very point of death, as is the case in Hebrews 11.22. So, a possible rendering of the sentence is ‘my daughter just now was at the point of death.’ So it seems to me that the Greek in both Mark and Matthew can be seen as creating a sense of impending inevitability.
This is a bit tricky since most blog members don’t read Greek. But let’s give it a shot! I’m afraid I don’t see how your explanation can work. Yes “now” (Greek ARTI) can indeed refer to something that has not yet happened, but that is only when it is used with certain verb tenses or moods. If you make a command “Now do this” then obviously the “now” does not refer to something that has happened already; and if you use it with a present or a future tense, same thing: “I’m driving now” or “Now I will wash the dishes.” But it does not mean that when used with a past tense: “Now I arrived.” Your arrival happened already.
Greek of course does not use verb tenses and moods in all the same ways English does. It does have an imperative (making a command) and a future (referring to what will happen). The example you give of ARTI (“now”) not meaning something that is past (Matthew 3:15) is an imperative. So you’re right, it doesn’t refer to the past. But as you note Matthew 9:18 doesn’t use an imperative (or a future, or a present), it uses the aorist indicative, the tense normally used to refer to a past act that has been completed.
It’s right of course that the Greek aorist can be a bit complicated. But it almost always refers to a completed action; only in exceptional cases does that mean something other than what has happened in the past. How do you know when you have an exception? Only when the context strongly indicates the action is not past. Aorist indicatives almost always past actions over and done with. You can see hundreds and hundreds of examples of the standard use just in the Gospel of Matthew. If you say a girl “died” (aorist indicative) you mean she is already dead.
BUT, the most important point, this emphasis on a past action is especially strong if you have a *combination* of “now” (ARTI) with the aorist. “Now that has already happened.” There would be no other reason to combine the two, at least that I can think of. (I think your suggestion that “died” in the aorist can refer to something yet to happen based on Hebrews 11:22 must be a mistake? Hebrews 11:22 doesn’t use the aorist indicative of the verb. It is a *present* participle – “while he was dying”).
There is no instance in Matthew where ARTI is used with the aorist to mean anything other than a completed action. Or in the entire New Testament (I checked). I can’t imagine a Greek reader ever taking it this way. Do you have an example in mind?
Without it, there doesn’t seem to be an option: Matthew says the girl is already dead when Jairus comes to Jesus; Mark says she is sick and still living. That’s simply a factual difference, a contradiction.
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Personally I find this claiming & defending of no contradictions, & it’s evil twin inerrancy, just sooo tedious. There’s a fine line between believing in miracles & believing in magic. They argue as though “the Bible” was handed down (from on High?) as a complete single unified volume from God himself, & it’s for his honour they are making this stand. We (& they) know the truth of its origin is far from this. What they are fighting for is the Church’s honour – & it’s power base – since the Bible is the Church’s creation. Why can’t anyone admit that? It’s about as contested & controversial an idea as claiming that the Sun rose this morning. Yawn.
I am reminded of Frank Schaeffer’s work pouring scorn on Bibliodolatry.
Nice format! Easier to follow and and you’ve got an automatic transcription, in effect, of the debate. No doubt about who said what! And you can run it through as slowly and as carefully as you like, to review and compare to your heart’s content.
Bart,
I was raised Protestant with the idea of Sola Scriptura but for many years now have studied the Tanakh (Jewish Study Bible & commentaries, Christine Hayes Yale Lectures, various Rabbi’s, etc) and have come to the conclusion that this idea of Sola Scriptura is often completely abrogated when the NT looks back at the Hebrew Bible trying to mine messiah/jesus verses, twisting and turning them, and clearly going against the plain reading of the text in context. So it seems to me there is a contradiction at the very heart of this Sola Scriptura idea.
What are your thoughts on this?
Thank You have a good day, SC
I would say Sola Scriptura is a theological view and not a historical one. You can still hold to it and be a historian, but the use of the Hebrew Bible in the New Testament is rarely based on historical exegesis. So You’d have to say that sola scriptura does not require modern historical exegetical methods.
Jarius’ Daughter – Not A Contradiction But Rather A Case Of Matthew Abbreviating The Account
* Matthew’s version is obviously an abbreviated version. In order to abbreviate this account, the writer of Matthew completely removed the part about those coming to tell Jarius that his daughter had died and in order to get to the raising her from the dead part, he just had Jarius tell Jesus that she had already died when he first came to her. How else was he supposed to tell the story about Jesus raising her from the dead in an abbreviated way (by leaving out the part about the people coming to tell Jarius that his daughter has died)? I’m sure there are other ways but Matthew’s method was succinct!
I agree it’s an abbreviated version. But if, as with Firth, you want to claim that the account really happened as described in the Gospels, which way did it happen? Can’t be both. By abbreviating the account Matthew has created the contradiction. That probably didn’t bother him, and it doesn’t bother me, but it should bother anyone who wants to claim that it is historically accurate/inerrant.
Yea that doesn’t bother me at all either.
That is something new for me to consider. Matthew chose to make a contradiction. So Matthew decided not to make a historically accurate account. It’s not like he had the facts wrong and just got it wrong, he chose it.
Yeah, that’s how Mike Licona sees it. And then he draws the conclusion that “therefore it is not a contradiction.” It’s that conclusion that leaves me scratching my head. I think it’s comparable to saying that if someone *knows* he is giving you the wrong directions to get to the store, he isn’t really giving you wrong directions. Hey, he did it on purpose!
Is it possible that a later scribe changed “my daughter is dying” to “my daughter has just died” to make the story flow better? I suppose you may say it’s possible but there are no early manuscripts showing this to be the case?
Yeah, that’s the problem. Unless there’s some evidence (even a tiny bit) then this has to be a last resort. (Especially since scribes tended to *harmonize* the Gospel accounts so they agree, rather than *make* them stand at odds with each other.
I should probably learn Koine Greek “arti” (now) – if only to follow this discussion!
But in addition to all this, the idea that Joseph and Mary had to go to Bethlehem because of a “census” simply doesn’t make sense. The point of a Roman census was to count people for tax purposes. The tax collector is going to collect them where people live NOW (“arti” again!), not where their ancestors used to live. In Matthew and Luke’s scenario, Bethlehem gets hit with two extra tax bills while Nazareth gets a tax write-off.
Occam’s razor: Matthew and/or Luke made a mistake.
You should be awarded a medal of patience and coolness. And politeness also.
Thanks for your clear responses, Professor Ehrman (clear even for those of us nonconversant in Attic Greek).
In light of this clarity those who admit of no contradictions must suffer a further ratcheting-up of cognitive dissonance.
How agonizing it must be for die-hard Christian apologists to have to deny the simple truth at all costs, in order to avoid eternal damnation.
What amazes me about these attempts to reconcile contradictions is the fundemental question: Why would God decide to dictate four gospels with different events in them to confuse people when he could have dictated just one or four identical accounts? He is God after all: omniscient and omnipotent. Why would he tell Luke to write things he didn’t bother to tell Matthew or Mark? Did he forget? He doesn’t need to test our faith since he already knows the content of our minds and hearts, what would a test tell him that he doesn’t already know? If God was consistent, but the evangelists werenot then we still don’t have an inerrant word of God scripture.
Jrbaugh
Agreed, as if God couldn’t get the gospel right on the first try!
While this is an unrelated post, Dr. Ehrman, with all of the recent controversy of the overturning of Roe vs. Wade, where do you think Jesus would have stood on abortion, despite the fact the he NEVER demonstrates any teachings on it. I see now that a lot of Pro-Choice Christians are pointed towards the Book of Numbers, Chapter 5: 11-31 to justify this action. Any thoughts on the matter?
Not sure. There were various views among Jews and Jewish teachers at the time, pretty much like today.
Here’s a very informative article about abortion by Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg, incorporating the Torah as well the Talmud. https://lifeisasacredtext.substack.com/p/the-torah-of-reproductive-freedom
The insecurity of most christian appologists is revealed when they overuse expressions like: it is possible, it may be that, it could imply, it seems, etc. These are found 10 times in rev. Firth’s post.
He uses the phrase “perfectly possible” three times.
As Inigo Montoya says “You keep using that phrase. I do not think it means what you think it means.”
Excellent format and pushback
One thing I don’t get is aren’t Anglicans like super liberal and gay friendly now? They probably have tons of ways to hold onto something resembling the nicene creed but also incorporating the reality that the Bible is filled with lying forgers, folks misquoting the Old Testament, internal contradictions, flat out factually incorrect claims that aren’t matters of theological truth and so on…
If anything Anglicans I thought were at the forefront of Christianity, capable of somehow incorporating science modern values and critical research into their faith and still remaining Christian.
Why does he feel the need to adopt the evangelical approach? His fellow Anglicans i think are way more diverse.
There are Anglicans and then there are Anglicans. Some are very high church, virtually CAtholic; others aree very liberal; others are evangelical …. There’s not a single kind, much to the perennial dismay of the Archbishop of Canterbury who has to try to keep their communiion together.disabledupes{cfa3c25052fc2976d012b9ba0367bfde}disabledupes
Re Anglicans – I write to you from Australia, where the Diocese of Sydney (plus a nearby satellite diocese) hold a very high view of the Bible, as the inerrant Word of God. And they hold to Sola Scriptura, or very near to it. The Diocese of Perth (Western Australia) is at the opposite end, & there’s plenty in between. Although I am glad & relieved no longer to be associated with them all it certainly must be fun when they all get together for General (national) Synod!!
Where does the Anglican Diocese of Melbourne sit on the spectrum Geoff?
I would say Melbourne is in between somewhere but don’t quote me – certainly not my area of expertise, or interest anymore! I have heard lately that their national response to same sex marriage (federal law here since several years ago) & allied matters is stirring up talk of a split among Aussie Anglicans.
Dr. Ehrman, my apologies for this mostly unrelated question. In number 4, you mention the absolute genitive. I was thinking about Mark 1:14 where the author writes about the gospel of God. εὐαγγέλιον τοῦ θεοῦ
Could both, God’s good message and the good message from God, also be appropriate translations?
Ah, that’s different from a genitive absolute. A genitive absolute is when a particple in the genitive is governed by a substantive in the genitive that functions as its subject and that, as a construction, has no syntactical connection with the rest of teh sentence. Sorry you asked? Mark 1:14 involves a simple substantive (noun) in the genitive. The question in this case is interesting. With nouns that imply *action* a modifying substantive can be either “subjective” or “objective” — that is, whether hte noun is understood as *doing* the action (subjective) or “receiving/experiencing” it (objective). E.g. if I say “I did this because of the love “of God,” then love is an active noun and “of God” is in the genitive. Is it God’s love for me (subjective) or my love for God (objective) that led me to do this? The only way to know if the context of the statment! And even then you might be wrong. Same with Mark 1:14. If it’s a subjective/objective genitive! As opposed to a different kind of genitive. Which also cannot be determined outside of the context….
Dr. Ehrman, it’s above my head but I knew you would have the answer. I’m honored for the reply. In a round about way, I think you’re saying either could possibly be correct.
Yup.
I think this is interesting in itself. If the author is saying that the gospel or good message, εὐαγγέλιον, was from God, it’s the same as saying that Jesus was God’s messenger, his angel. That would’ve been Mark’s view.
Hi, Dr. Ehrman. What do we say to Christians when they say we are being deceived by the devil to think God doesn’t exist? They’ll say the devil is the author of confusion and that’s why there are so many religions in our world.
I’d say there’s no arguing with it. You could tell them that they are deceived by a false angel to believe in the *wrong* God. How can you convince anyone of either thing or it’s opposite? Can’t.
Thanks Dr. Ehrman. It’s so hard. I’ve been reading and listening to your work and last week, that thought just came in my mind. I was like am I being deceived into thinking Christianity isn’t real? I really don’t know what to do. Maybe I need to do more research on satan?
I’d suggest you do a lot of reading and thinking. I don’t think the issue is Satan so much as what you think is probably true based on what you learn. Good luck with it.
My favorite contradiction is:
When was Jesus crucified? Right after the Passover meal (as in Mark)? Or right before it (as in John)? To me this is a flat out contradiction with an objective question and concerning the most important event in the NT.
In a somewhat related vein: Why is the information that Jesus was crucified “under Pontius Pilate” included in the Nicene creed? Did some heretic group say otherwise, perhaps? How is this important?
It appears to be in order to locate it as an actual historical event that occurred in real time; some Gnostic groups insisted that the crucifixion didn’t actuallyl happen.
Bart, Can you recommend a book about Church History? I already have your course about The Apostolic Fathers, which I enjoyed very much. I will go back and listen to it again. But I would like to know more details about the power struggle between the Church of Rome vs. other cities. Do we have any letters between churches or church leaders that are within the first few centuries but later than or not included in the Apostolic Fathers?
Yes, we have a large number of letters, many of them quoted by Eusebius. You might try looking at my collection of early Christain writings, “AFter the New Testament.” In it I collect primary texts under a range of topics, with introductions to both the topics and each text, with bibliograpies of other places to turn next.
Good response.
I would love to hear or see your response to an older YouTube video by Mark Winger that is quite discourteous of you and your work. I can see several holes his is reasoning, most notably is his focus on theology rather and history.
https://youtu.be/g2ne3ndnVQk
Ah, wish I had time to respond to everyone!
Matthew develops tension – between Jesus the King – and Herod the King.
But Jesus isn’t just a king, he is a Melchisdek king-priest (Psa 110).
So Luke needs to fill in different details, priestly issues. He’s done with Herod the king after one mention and gets on with Zacharias, temple worship, the order of Abia. Yes Jesus is going to fulfil the prophecies of being a king but Luke 3 returns to John the Baptist, also of priestly descent. And then the genealogy of Mary, Heli’s biological daughter, and related to Elizabeth who is descended from Aaron – Luke 1:5).
Matthew records Jesus’ parents offered the sacrifice of the poor – no golden gifts yet from the wise men in Bethlehem. Jesus was away from Bethlehem by the time Herod’s soldiers arrived – too late and in the wrong place. The “young child” was back in the Nazareth house by the time the wise men arrived from Jerusalem. And after the visit of the wise men, Jesus was taken to Egypt, not to return to Nazareth until Herod the King was dead.
The psychology of belief is fascinating. It’s hard not to compare this to the current state of politics in this country.
Dr. Ehrman, I think you’ve noted in other postings/writings that you have plenty of friends and colleagues who are committed and dedicated Christians, yet are able to acknowledge the contradictions in the NT without having their faith impaired. Some are able to do this, others are not. Do you have any insights on why some can and some can’t? I know you’re not a trained psychologist, but you clearly have ample experience with human nature in this regard! I’d be interested to know your assessment.
I wish I knew. I’ve had my friends Jeff and Judy Siker (both Presyterian ministers with PhDs in NT) give their own answers on the blog. Look them up and see!
Thank you! I am exploring the Sikers’ responses. I’m finding them enlightening, refreshing and heartening. Knowing that there are people like you and the Sikers in the world gives me hope that we can actually engage in the civil conversations necessary to address human suffering. We’ll never do it as long as we’re all standing on opposite sides of some great chasm screaming at each other.
Ah, yes. And they are my closest friends. (I introduced them!)
In Mark, everything points to Jairus asking Jesus for a healing, and the woman touching Jesus is just an intermediate narrative for dramatic tension by a story teller: Jesus was going to heal the daughter, was interrupted, and the daughter died in the minute or so that Jesus interacted with the woman. Given the interaction seems to be nothing more than a few minutes, the dramatic tension seems artificial: had Jesus not been interrupted, the girl would still be dead by the time Jesus walked to the home. After the girl dies, Jesus is told he need not come, for Jairus was seeking a healing, not a resurrection: the idea of a resurrection did not even seem to cross anyone’s mind. In summary, Jesus was acknowledged to be a healer, but not one who could perform resurrections.
In Matthew, everything about the healing is taken out: not only is there wording that suggests the daughter is dead (or close), any dramatic tension is lost as the girl seems to be already dead, Jesus is not told the girl has died, and Jesus simply goes to the house and resurrects her. It seems Jesus was expected to perform a resurrection.
The bottom line is: Don’t mess with Bart Ehrman when it comes to Greek grammar.
Bart,
As far as i read about history and the 2 contradictiv birth narratives i found out that Quirinius only became governor 10 years after Herod’s death, if we add the slaughter of boys under 2 years that makes a gap of at least 12 years and if we see where Jews tell Jesus that he’s not 50 years yet we notice that it may refer 2 diferent people called Jesus, if we add the 12 year gap to Jesus normally accepted age of 33 when he died, we get 45 and can confirm what’s said about he’s not being 50 yet. What’s your opinion about this?
The problem is that Luke, which is the only source that indicates Quirinius was teh governor then (even though he wasn’t governor for another 10 years) is also the only source that says Jesus was about 30 when he started his ministroy. The 50 business comes from John, which doesn’t say anything about the census or Jesus age otherwise.
Yes, but if we have only 2 reports of Jesus birth and Luke’s is the only one that refers Quirinius but not only he refers quirinius as he refers the 1st roman census that only happened after quirinius became governor. On the other hand, Mathew is the only one that refers the slaughter of boys under 2 years. How olkd was the historic Jesus when he was crucifixed?
We don’t know. Luke says he started his ministry when he was “about 30” and John suggests his ministry lasted three years; that’s why he is traditionally said to have been 33. But I don’t think we have any real idea.
The mental gymnastics that Christian apologists go through to prove the Bible’s inerrancy is ridiculous. Seeing very smart people wasting their intellect on this is very sad.
Matthew Firth’s logical reasoning is eerily similar to the type of parsing I and other religious studies students engaged in as undergraduates learning ancient Greek. Truth is that the books of the new testament are a small snippet of Greek literature – and koine or common/everyday Greek at that, not classical/formal Greek which emphasized form and function. Not enough text to form firm rules such as Matthew Firth posits. I had a rude awakening in graduate school trying to translate the Anabasis – this is real formal Greek, compared to koine. Add to this that the linguistic quality of scribes in the ancient world varied greatly. Some could barely copy texts while others could copy but not read or understand the text. We don’t know enough about which scribes wrote which text to determine grammar, syntax and composition consistency across scribes. Bart, I do appreciate your ancient language expertise and ability to counter Firth’s surplufluous and erroneous reasoning based on such a small segment of ancient literature and our ignorance of the scribes who wrote these manuscripts.