As you know, books on controversial topics get reviewed by all sorts of readers; some reviews are glowing and others are, well, nasty. About a month or so ago several reader sent me an online review of my book Heaven and Hell on patheos.com (check it out: it’s a website dealing with issues connected with religious faith) by Randy Alcorn, a prominent evangelical author with a high public profile, who has written a number of books about Heaven from his faith perspective.
You can check him out online:
Randy Alcorn is the founder and director of Eternal Perspective Ministries (EPM) and the author of more than 55 books, including Heaven and If God Is Good: Faith in the Midst of Suffering and Evil. More than 11 million copies of his books have been sold. They’ve also been translated into 70 languages. |
Randy’s review was, shall we say, of the harsh variety. But now that I’m getting older and the body-joints aren’t working as well as in the days of my youth, my knee doesn’t seem to jerk as much as it used to when reviewers object to my work, and rather than erupting into a fit of cursing rage and firing off a nasty email telling the reviewer they don’t have a clue what they’re talking about, I tend to sit back and say, “Huh!”
So I decided to write Randy, whom I’ve never met and really didn’t know much about (I’m not in those circles any more, as you may have noticed), and ask if he’d be willing to have me post his review on the blog, so that blog readers might see a very different view of the issues I discuss. We ended up having a very pleasant email exchange over a period of weeks. When it comes to matters of religious faith, understanding the Bible, social and political issues, or, well, the nature of the universe and reality more broadly, we have very firm disagreements, to put the matter rather mildly. But it’s possible to have these without going for each other’s throats, and I’m finding as I enter into maturity that it’s better just to have civil disagreements. I’ve never yet changed anyone’s mind by hitting them with a sledge hammer.
In any event, Randy was indeed willing for me to post his review. So here it is. You can probably figure out places where I disagree, sometimes rather vigorously. And you will certainly know the places where you do. It may be that, down the line, Randy and I will have an actual back and forth on the blog about some of these issues. But for now, here it is.
Randy has graciously agreed to address your comments and questions. TWO requirements. First, in your comment, if you are wanting a response, PLEASE indicate if you are asking him or me. Either of us will be free to respond, but if your comment/question is in particular for one of us to address, let us know. Second, as always on this blog, even where you disagree with one of us, please be respectful. As I always urge, let’s pretend we’re not on the internet here…..
April 13, 2020 | Randy Alcorn | The Gospel Coalition
Bart Ehrman is professor of religious studies at University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. He also teaches eight of The Great Courses’ widely acclaimed Bible and Christianity classes and has a part in 78 others. The subtitles of Ehrman’s books, including his five New York Times bestsellers, capture his premises: e.g., Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why, How Jesus Became God: the Exaltation of a Jewish Preacher from Galilee, and Forged: Writing in the Name of God—Why the Bible’s Authors Are Not Who We Think They Are.
False teachers influence the church from both inside and outside, but outsiders gain special credibility when they are former insiders (cf. 2 Tim. 4:3–4). In this era of escalating deconversions, #exvangelicals, and the “Dones” (with church), Ehrman is a major instrument in countless readers’ downward spiritual trajectory.
Same Message, New Focus
Whenever I read an Ehrman book, déjà vu kicks in. His core message is always: “Christians are dead wrong; I know because I used to be one before I became enlightened.” Each of Ehrman’s books deals with something else Christians are wrong about; and his newest, Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife, is another volume in his expanding canon of deconversion doctrine.
Ehrman speaks with the authoritative tone of a historian-philosopher, a wise sage, unfolding humanity’s preoccupation with death and the fear of death. Beginning with the Epic of Gilgamesh, he then examines Homer, Virgil, Plato, and other ancients. Along the way he interjects his belief that there’s no need to fear death, since it’s simply ceasing to exist (the very thing many people fear).
“Whenever I read an Ehrman book, déjà vu kicks in. His core message is always: ‘Christians are dead wrong; I know because I used to be one before I became enlightened.’” |
Arriving at the Bible, simply one more myth to Ehrman, he presents what he calls the “older Hebrew view” that death is the final end, followed by nonexistence. He then addresses the “later Hebrew position” on resurrection and Judgment Day from the intertestamental era.
While he says little to refute pre-Christian views, once Ehrman gets to the historic Christian view of the afterlife, he conducts an all-out verbal siege. But he doesn’t rant and rave; he calmly presents his assertions, such as that Jesus and Paul disagreed on much, including the way of salvation, but shared a disbelief in an eternal hell. He says both of them, and the author of Revelation (whom he’s certain wasn’t the apostle John), taught annihilationism. He simply ignores or reinterprets passages to the contrary (e.g. Isa. 66:24; Dan. 12:2; Matt. 25:41, 46; Mark 9:43, 48; 2 Thess. 1:9; Jude 7, 13; Rev. 14:9–11; 20:10, 14–15).
Interestingly, though Ehrman doesn’t believe there is a heaven, he leaves room for its possibility:
I certainly don’t think the notion of a happy afterlife is as irrational as the fires of hell; at least it does not contradict the notion of a benevolent creative force behind the universe. So I’m completely open to the idea and deep down even hopeful about it. But I have to say that at the end of the day I really don’t believe it either. (294)
However, Ehrman is certain he isn’t wrong about hell:
Are we really to think that God is some kind of transcendent sadist intent on torturing people (or at least willing to allow them to be tortured) for all eternity, a divine being infinitely more vengeful than anyone who has ever existed? (293–94)
At the end of the book Ehrman quotes from ex-evangelical Rob Bell:
In [universalism], the love of God knows no bounds and cannot be overcome. . . . In the words of one modern Christian author, once himself a committed evangelical with a passion for the biblical witness, in the end “Love Wins.”
Ehrman seems to offer universalism as a backup position to his naturalistic worldview. He’s saying, “I don’t believe in an afterlife, but if there is one then everyone will be in heaven.”
He goes on to essentially applaud the rise of universalism in Christian churches: “Harkening back to Origen, and Paul before him, these committed believers maintain that in the end no one will be able to resist the love of God. . . . [E]veryone will be saved.”
Opinion Isn’t Proof
I admire Ehrman’s skill as a persuasive communicator. Were he a lawyer he could take either side in any case and would likely persuade the jury. (Hence the vulnerability of uninformed Christians who read his books.) Yet Ehrman frequently states what he believes as if opinion constitutes proof. For instance, he emphatically says, “There was a time in human history when no one on the planet believed that there would be a judgment day at the end of time” (8). Really? No one? Does he have private access to an ancient poll taken of every living person?
Ehrman frequently states what he believes as if opinion constitutes proof.
“Ehrman frequently states what he believes as if opinion constitutes proof.” |
Ehrman, after denying the Old Testament ever speaks of resurrection, explains in a footnote:
Some readers may wonder why I am not contrasting this view of Job with the famous passage of Job 19:25–26: “For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God” (ESV).
Ehrman negates Job by citing a Jewish scholar who says, “The text has been garbled and we cannot tell exactly what Job intended to say.” This scholar adds, “Job is almost certainly not talking about seeing God in the afterlife.”
I consulted 12 major translations by different teams of Hebrew scholars, some of whom don’t hold to biblical inerrancy. Their translations contain only minor differences. All of them suggest Job is indeed speaking of seeing God in the afterlife.
This is just one example of Ehrman’s practice of either: (1) inaccurately conveying what the Bible says; (2) accurately conveying what the Bible says, then declaring it’s wrong; (3) arguing the text really doesn’t say what Christians believe it says (why does that matter if what it really says is also wrong?); and (4) citing Scripture in support of his contentions, even though he regularly dismisses Scripture’s validity.
When researching my book Heaven, I read more than 150 books on the subject, including many I disagreed with. And, in reading Ehrman’s book, I saw no evidence that he had read a single evangelical book on heaven, though he did manage to cite one on hell (containing arguments for annihilationism and universalism). While his footnotes reflect extensive research in ancient Greek texts, he seems largely unaware of what the Bible or evangelical Christians claim about heaven—the new earth. He refers to Revelation 21:1, and recognizes the teaching of bodily resurrection, yet doesn’t develop what the Bible teaches about the eternal dwelling place of God’s people.
While his footnotes reflect extensive research in ancient Greek texts, he seems largely unaware of what the Bible or evangelical Christians claim about heaven—the new earth.
“While his footnotes reflect extensive research in ancient Greek texts, he seems largely unaware of what the Bible or evangelical Christians claim about heaven—the new earth.” |
With a few exceptions when he admits he’s not certain, I’m struck by Ehrman’s usual unswerving confidence that he is 100 percent right. He is, just like evangelicals, relying on an ultimate authority—but instead of the Bible, it’s his own intellect.
Apostle of Deconversion
As he does in most of his books, Ehrman seeks to build credibility by sharing his testimony of conversion to unbelief. He professed faith at age 15 at Youth for Christ, then attended Moody Bible Institute and Wheaton College. He was a card-carrying evangelical. His exodus from evangelicalism began when he went to Princeton Seminary, where he lost his faith in the Bible and Jesus:
[At Princeton] my scholarship led me to realize that the Bible was a very human book, with human mistakes and biases and culturally conditioned views in it. And realizing that made me begin to wonder if the beliefs in God and Christ I had held and urged on others were themselves partially biased, culturally conditioned, or even mistaken.
These doubts disturbed me not only because I wanted very much to know the Truth but also because I was afraid of the possible eternal consequences of getting it wrong. . . . What if I ended up no longer believing and then realized too late that my unfaithful change of heart had all been a huge blunder?
Ehrman appears to believe his studies at Princeton were guided by objective truth and his rejection of the Christian worldview was a courageous submission to this truth.
With a few exceptions when he admits he’s not certain, I am struck by Ehrman’s unswerving confidence that he is 100 percent right. He is, just like evangelicals, relying on an ultimate authority—but instead of the Bible, it’s his own intellect.
“With a few exceptions when he admits he’s not certain, I am struck by Ehrman’s unswerving confidence that he is 100 percent right. He is, just like evangelicals, relying on an ultimate authority—but instead of the Bible, it’s his own intellect.” |
He claims, “In this book I will not be urging you either to believe or disbelieve in the existence of heaven and hell.” No reader could imagine Ehrman is urging belief in heaven or hell. But it seems intellectually dishonest to say he isn’t encouraging disbelief in them. Arguably that is a central purpose of the book.
In fact, to understand Heaven and Hell and Ehrman’s other writings, we must grasp that his deconversion redirected, rather than removed, his evangelistic zeal. Many people have quietly lost their faith, but Ehrman didn’t go gently into the night. Instead, he has become an eloquent apostle of deconversion, and his disciples are many.
While critics of the faith come and go, I regard Ehrman as one of the most significant modern opponents to the Christian faith. He’s a secular prophet to certain evangelical and ex-evangelical readers.
Call to Hold Fast
I feel sorry for Bart Ehrman, but I’m even more saddened at the harm done to those who embrace his teachings. We who believe the Bible must recognize this is about our adversary, Satan, who comes to destroy and devours people through persuasive arguments, and who when he lies, “speaks his native language” (John 8:44, NIV).
In fact, to understand Heaven and Hell and Ehrman’s other writings, we must grasp that his deconversion redirected, rather than removed, his evangelistic zeal. Instead, he has become an eloquent apostle of deconversion, and his disciples are many.
“In fact, to understand Heaven and Hell and Ehrman’s other writings, we must grasp that his deconversion redirected, rather than removed, his evangelistic zeal. Instead, he has become an eloquent apostle of deconversion, and his disciples are many.” |
In a time when “everyone has a story,” people listen to stories without discernment. The personal testimony historically has been used by faith-affirmers to reach the lost. Now it has become a tool of faith-deniers to reach the found.
There are still wonderful conversion stories, and we should tell them. But we should also teach our children to cultivate their intellects and equip them to refute falsehood. And we should demonstrate the transcendent vibrancy of a generous, Christ-centered, and people-loving life, enlightened by the authentic God-man Jesus, full of grace and truth.
Finally, as we call on God to do the miraculous work of conversion in people’s lives, we “must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that [we] can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it” (Titus 1:9).
Randy Alcorn is the founder and director of Eternal Perspective Ministries (EPM) and the author of more than 55 books, including Heaven and If God Is Good: Faith in the Midst of Suffering and Evil. More than 11 million copies of his books have been sold. They’ve also been translated into 70 languages. |
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I used to read a bit of Alcorn back in the day. He has a perspective on finances that seemed to fit the Anabaptist (Amish/Metronome) circles I was moving in at the time.
Don’t feel sorry for me, Randy. I deconverted from Christianity going on three years now and as a human being I have not changed one bit. I no longer believe that having a human nature is sin. I have read most of Bart’s books and they have helped me understand the Christian faith and how it developed and spread. However, what is more convincing for me that there is no God of the Bible is the collision course that science and the OT Bible events have been on for 150 years. I now understand that Christianity developed from Judaism and Judaism was produced from a group of nomads who emerged from within Canaan and set themselves apart from others by creating a story that they were the chosen people of one god who led them through miraculous events. As for the afterlife I’m extremely comfortable with “non fui; fui; non sum; non curo.” Thanks, Bart.
Barfo, I do feel sorry that you did not find in Christ what I did many years ago, and still find in Him daily. If you have not changed one bit after deconverting I’m not sure what you deconverted from could have been very substantial or meaningful. I’m not saying it wasn’t, just saying it’s hard to imagine someone not changing one bit after walking away from what formerly made a great difference in their life. I don’t think “having a human nature is sin,” but that to have a human nature is first to be made in the image of God, with all the dignity that implies. I do believe the biblical account of the fall, which twisted the human nature and tainted it with sin. That put human nature into an unnatural state. The good news is the sinful human nature is a temporary condition, and Christ died and rose to reverse the curse and RESTORE human nature to all He designed it to be and more (which it will be forever in the resurrection and on the New Earth–my understanding of the biblical teaching, of course I realize you don’t agree). Hence the biblical picture is not of a permanent fatalism about human nature, but a temporary aberration of it awaiting an eternal fix. You say, “As for the afterlife I’m extremely comfortable with “non fui; fui; non sum; non curo.” The part of the Epicurean worldview that’s most interesting to me is the non curo. We will not care IF we cease to exist, I get that. But if we do NOT cease to exist then I believe we will certainly care, as did the rich man in Christ’s parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31). My belief in an afterlife will not keep me alive after death, and your disbelief in an afterlife will not keep you from continuing to exist. The question is, and I think you probably agree, whether or not a philosophy is true, not how comfortable we are with it. We believe differently, but neither of our comfortability with our particular beliefs is a valid (at very least not an ultimate) test of whether or not they are true. In any case, I sincerely wish you the best.
This parable has a lot of holes in it. For starts we have no back story as to what the rich man did that was so condemning, or what Lazarus did that lead to his exaltation. Should we follow the money or should we follow the attitude. Are we to understand from this that all the poor go to Abraham and all the rich burn. Is fear of burning the requirement to enter heaven? Is wealth or poverty a matters of chance and opportunity? Perhaps we should deny ourselves reciprocity. Is fearing the One who can kill both you body and your soul the ticket? Christianity and Judaism have given, and are giving, the world a moral standard from which it can survive, and I live by that moral standard expecting or wanting no reward. Those who want or expect such reward fall short of that moral standard. Why do we make money and have spare time on our hands, so we may have something in reserve to help others. Doing ‘good deeds’. for a reward is like a woman marrying a man because the man makes good money. It is just another level of prostitution.
The Jesus you believe in has only a tenuous basis in fact. This has been amply demonstrated. It would be better for you to deal with historical realities, and better for Christians to understand the historical realities, than to cling to illusions. There might actually be a god of some sort, but it isn’t likely to be what you worship in Jesus.
Hello Mr. Alcorn,
It doesn’t take much thought to question what “Finding Christ” actually means. This country and world is full of people who loudly claim to have “Found Christ”, but who have absolutely no interest in doing anything that Christ directed. The examples are infinite, but one that sticks prominently in my mind is James Dobson. Mr. Dobson, the founder of Focus on the Family, visited a migrant detention facility on the southern border last year and let the detainees know that “He loves them, and God Loves them too”. Then he explained that he supports “building the wall” and that we should “send all these migrants back to where they came from….” So much for the Good Samaritan, Matthew 25:40, Epistle of James, etc. Mr. Dobson is a fake, putting it nicely. One more example where the louder you announce that you are a “Christian”, the far more likely you actually aren’t. And look no farther than the current 72% (it’s slipped some) “Evangelical Christian” support for Donald Trump, the closest thing to a soulless pagan that’s ever been in the White House. (Except of course for Barack Obama, since everyone knows he’s the Anti-Christ….:/) https://relevantmagazine.com/current/nation/james-dobson-gives-into-fear-at-the-border-update/
Do you know what’s emptying the pews in the “Christian” churches? Is it “Secular Society”?? No. It’s the “Christians” themselves…. The young and intelligent and caring and open-minded see the hypocrisy, bigotry, and hate; and they leave. All that’s left is a core that becomes evermore concentrated in its sin, and evermore blind to it. Billy Graham was a great man of faith with an open heart that could change. His look-alike son, Franklin Graham, is a closed-minded, bigoted political hack.
The reality is that most “Christians” aren’t “Christians at all, at least where it’s defined by people who actually actively follow and act on Christ’s teachings. So “Finding Christ” doesn’t actually mean jack….. You want to be holier than thou and judgemental based on your own “all-righteous” viewpoint?….. Who cares?…. Go take a number and stand in line with all the others who rant and throw stones, but do nothing otherwise.
If you take the story of the rich man and Lazarus to prove hell you must also take its depiction of WHO goes to hell – the rich who ignore the poor, not those who have not “accepted Jesus as personal saviour” and not those who believe the wrong things. I have long believed the point of the story was to teach care for the poor and destitute (a lesson not learned by many western nations who simply ignore the poor because they believe it is somehow the poor person’s own fault; they would have Jesus tell Lazarus to get a job and pull himself up by his bootstraps.)
I laughed when I read your post Barfo. I wondered if that pity line was one that Dr. Ehrman’s younger knee would have jerked at (tongue-in-cheek). In terms of Dr. Ehrman being an apostle of deconversion, I believe there is a middle ground to the work he makes available to us. I think some of us are sincerely interested in Christianity, but we frankly don’t know what to do with the horrific biblical stories, discrepancies, historical difficulties, and the problem of evil. For those of us with this temperament, we’re getting something satisfied mentally that isn’t simply anti-religious.
Randy, if Dr. Erhman shouldn’t be relying on his intellect as his ultimate authority, what should he rely on? I have no idea what your theology is like, but at the end of the day aren’t we all kind of stuck in terms of relying on whatever intellect is available to us? Our intellect is what allows us to read or listen to the bible in the first place, so there seems like some chicken and egg here. If not intellect, what is available other than an intuition?
Yes, I totally agree we all must rely on our intellect to a certain extent. At the same time we should humbly recognize the limits of our intellects and realize we can be sincere and at the same time misled. I recognize that’s every bit as much true of me as it is Bart or you or anyone else. However, a core part of my worldview is believing Scripture is God’s inspired revelation to us. Obviously I don’t expect everyone else or even most people to believe that, but I truly do. And since I do, there are times where I submit my mind to a belief which, left to myself, I wouldn’t have figured out or chosen to embrace. An example of that is a response I just made to someone on this blog concerning whether Hell is eternal. If I were asked by God to cast a vote in favor of Hell or against it, or in favor of a temporary Hell rather than an eternal one, I would make a choice based on my limited human understanding and I certainly wouldn’t vote for eternal suffering. But since I believe there is a God who is both loving and holy, and that he sent his Son Jesus to save us, and that Jesus said more about Hell than anyone, then I bow my knee to his authority and trust his intellect above mine even when certain things don’t make sense to me. I’m well aware that many don’t beleive in Jesus and don’t beleive the Bible accurately conveys his words. I actually do, and hence while I trust my intellect to understand what Scripture says (though I no doubt sometiems get it wrong) I do not trust my intellect more than I trust God’s Word or Jesus. Hence I submit to what I believe is a higher authority even when it goes against my preferences. So I trust my mind to a degree, but I do not consider myself my final authority, which is what allows me to believe many things I never would have figured out on my own.
Randy, firstly thanks for submitting yourself to this and taking part in the blog, it is great to be able to have these discussions.
Your statement about how you submit to what the Bible says even if it is challenging is all well and good if we were debating the validity of some clear claim or doctrine that could be described as ‘what the Bible teaches’ and if Bart were encouraging us to reject such a teaching.
But in fact Bart has taken an extremely Berean approach to this issue of Heaven and Hell and modern protestant doctrine thereon, and has ‘searched the Scriptures…whether those things were so” (Acts 17 v 11). And as with many aspects of christianity as we know it, they turned out not to be so, and Bart set out where, how and why.
Hello Mr. Alcorn (what is the proper honorific for someone with a D.D.?),
I hope it is okay that I reply to your reply. You claim that you must submit your intellect to a higher authority, and this is a statement I often hear in many Christian circles. However, it raises some obvious questions (or at least to me). All these questions start with “how do you know”. For example, how do you know that the Christian God is the proper authority to submit your intelligence to? How do you know that God is all-loving, and how do you know God is more intelligent than you are? One obvious question is “how do you know that the Bible properly conveys God’s word?”, but even IF that were true, how do you know that God is truthful? Even IF there was a supernatural being, how do you (and we) know that this being is telling the truth when he/she says “I am all-loving, all-mighty and most definitely more intelligent than you are, so therefore you should listen to me”? Or, in short, how do you know that everything in the Bible doesn’t come from the Devil?
Hi Mr Alcorn – Would you please describe how (and to what extent) one’s understanding of what Scripture says stands outside one’s intellect? Many thanks!
Grace to you Mr. Alcorn. Yes, it’s a Cathechism-22, does your faith determine your intellect or does your intellect determine your faith. My one permissible question is…
What do you think was the original ending of the Gospel of Mark?
For Randy Alcorn.
What 12 translations of the Hebrew Bible did you consider? Could you list them for us so we can go check them out for ourselves? You said Bart is 100% sure that he is right. Could you show us where Bart made that claim? Are you aware of the work of Christian classical theist David Bentley Hart who has recently written a book that in many ways agrees with Bart’s conclusion concerning Universalism? Thanks for your willingness to share your review on this blog.
I do wish Alcorn were willing to answer your questions. Sadly I suspect he has no good answers to them (at least, to the first two).
Randy,
Although I appreciate your heroic effort, I don’t find you’ve offered any real rebuttal. Job 19 for example: “after my skin has been destroyed, in my flesh, I will see God.” God is standing upon the earth, Job has flesh, how can this be a credible depiction of the afterlife? Even Paul says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. It’s curious the apostle of apostles didn’t know whether he was in/out of the body in his “spiritual” experience. Keeping to evangelical premise, Job wrote his piece, an educated gentle, around 1500 BC before (or around) a burning bush or mass exodus. He must had such a deep-rooted transcendental experience that Moses certainly didn’t and even Paul couldn’t grasp..? Or Job was written much later, around the Babylonian exile, sharing a common theme with Ezekiel and a few others: any “resurrection” if you can call it that, was flesh and blood on earth, with no spiritual spot in the Pleiades and a kingdom described a reigning physical Israel. Can you prove otherwise in OT? 1500 BC Job and friends were some chosen..or these ideas were developed, overtime, in and through, a very “Christian” paradigm…
My thought on this addressed to both:
Having had a seminary education and being involved in church work for many years, I have been chin deep in the exact same debates more times than I thought
possible. I don’t want to go down that road again. It is sickening.
As I approach my eighth decade of life I have learned one thing:
***I know absolutely nothing about anything absolutely***
Everything we know is speculation. I gave up church life because, as a pastor, I concluded that I had no business telling other fallible humans how they should live and what they should believe when I too have problems in that regard.
I concluded that the best I could do is to be the best fallible human being I can be by following the basic principals of love and compassion for my fellow humans as possible. I have no control over what happens beyond this life either for myself or anyone else.
I find these debates a useless waste of time.
I would rather spend my days doing what actually helps other people, helps our home planet, and to walk humbly with our god, whatever that may be, and love my neighbor the best I can.
Randy, when you stated “I’m even more saddened at the harm done to those who embrace his teachings” it struck me because that could be said for so many “Christian” leaders these days as well. I put Christian in quotes because amongst the faithful there are major differences in belief and practice such that one end of the spectrum disavows the legitimacy of the other end or even the middle. Wouldn’t you agree? Same holds true for the other major faiths, including atheism. Some people swallow the teachings and never question. Others question everything and probably change their views along their faith journey. I worry more about those who do not question. I loved your fiction books when I was a believer. You were one of my favorite authors in the 90s. My faith journey has led me to a point where Bart’s books and blogs are more relevant now but he is not responsible for my “deconversion”. Please don’t be sad for me. There has been no harm done. The harm you think you see is that I no longer believe as you do.
Oh my. I don’t even know where to start! Mainly his criticism is not aimed at your conclusions but you personally. I’ve seen these ad hominem attacks in an attempt to discredit you countless times. Instead of challenging your views you are torn down as if this will discredit your findings.
I find myself shaking my head at the accusation that the motives for your work is to de-convert Christians or destroy Christianity. Again, an ad hominem attack to discredit your work. My experience in debating evangelicals and fundamentalists has demonstrated and convinced me that the motives for such attacks are out of the fear you may be right!
By the way, I belong to a Facebook group dedicated to the works of Bishop John Shelby Spong. You have manny admirers there and your work is referenced frequently in a positive manner. That just proves your work doesn’t result in de-conversion for believers. A Person can still support your work and be a Christian at the same time. It’s not mutually exclusive.
This is an overall comment on Alcorn’s review. I have no idea what Bart Ehrman’s mission is other than to make contemporary Bible scholarship accessible to the non-scholarly reader. Admittedly he bases his approach on “critical” Biblical scholarship, but many of the philosophical assumptions he makes in his books I learned at an evangelical college more than 50 years ago, when Ehrman was still a teenager. None of this is new stuff. And far from being an “instrument” in my “downward spiritual trajectory,” I have found Ehrman’s books (I have all those aimed at non-scholarly readers) honest and fresh, leading me toward a much less superficial and/or limited understanding of the Bible and God. I should mention that I’m seminary trained and read my Greek New Testament often and have a passing knowledge of Hebrew. But I have gained a much deeper understanding the development of the Scriptures, the shaping of its texts. While I appreciated his approach in Heaven and Hell, again, I had a foundation for understanding it which was laid in college. I left evangelicalism long ago because of its tendency to judge others harshly. Perhaps that hasn’t changed.
For Randy. Thanks for the post and your view of Bart’s thinking. Someone once called Bart,” A much needed thorn in Christian Theology”. A couple of questions; 1) “Yet Ehrman frequently states what he believes as if opinion constitutes proof”. Are you not doing the same by believing that when you die you will be with Jesus somewhere? How do you know that and what is your proof other than faith/belief? 2) I will ask you the same question I asked Ravi Zacharias, who I admire and will miss deeply. In your last paragraph, “as we call on God to do the miraculous work of conversion in people’s lives”, In a multitude of religious beliefs, are you not declaring that your belief in Jesus and the New Testament movement to be the one and only true religion and thus calling it miraculous while rejecting the beliefs of billions of others? Thanks so much.
Every deep thinker is more afraid of being understood than of being misunderstood.”
― Friedrich Neitzsche
Thanks for posting on the Blog
I left Christianity after 50 years being born and raised in a strict Southern Baptist environment. Now in my 60’s, since I left I’ve become much happier, with much more peace of mind, and more altruistic than I ever was…even becoming a living kidney donor a year and a half ago.
How do you as a Christian explain that ?
Do you think I deserve to be denied entry to heaven ?
And shifting gears –
Thailand is a country of 70 million people.
Only 1% of the country is Christian. According to Orthodox Christianity 99% of the population of the country of Thailand are not going to heaven.
Do you think that’s fair ?
Thanks for your replies
I have a Greek Orthodox Christian background. My religious beliefs have changed significantly over the years, from atheist to Buddhist, to agnostic, to now a non-Trinitarian belief in God. Rather than a downward spiritual trajectory, I have been on a constantly evolving spiritual journey where I have learned about myself and other religions a lot. Even though I now believe in God again, I still very much enjoy reading, listening and watching Bart ‘s books, lectures, podcasts and debates.
Thank you Randy for your willingness to participate in this forum. I have not read any of your material on heaven or hell, nor have I read Dr Ehrman’s book on the topic.
My question for you is, do you believe in a literal hell where unbelievers spend an eternity in punishment, Gehenna fire, or as “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” – Matthew 25:46? If so, would it be just for someone to be judged to eternal punishment for a tragic mistake of rejection that took place over a seventy year period or so? Thank you.
Bart seems to have become an advocate of truth, as opposed to fantasy. Where’s the harm in that?
Mr Alcorn –
Thank you for the generosity of time and intellectual courage to post and interact with the blog community here. I hope your experience is a positive one.
I’ve read and reread your review – the thrust seems to be that you disagree with how Dr Ehrman is treating the data, and that this treatment runs counter and potentially detrimental to faith, especially to the underinformed.
I have two questions:
– Can you please expand on a key place (or places) where you think Dr Ehrman’s historical analysis is wrong? I am lacking a good sense as to your substantive counterargument.
– Why is it important to you that God actually allow people to end up in an eternal hell?
Many thanks in advance!
Mr. Alcorn, please don’t “feel sorry for Bart Ehrman,” and do not assume that his “teachings” are harmful.
I grew up in evangelical Christianity, attended church school, then seminary. I hold advanced degrees in theology and religious studies. Therefore, I can say with all authority that I can not, as a rational person, fall in line with any of the tangled theological traditions I’ve encountered.
However, Mr. Ehrman’s historical research convinced me that Jesus was a real person, that some of his teachings were preserved, and that people believed in his posthumous appearances. From there I came to understand the nature of Jesus’ continued presence in the world. I now enjoy a personal relationship with Jesus, the Jesus who exists outside of religion, outside of theological traditions. As I’ve written elsewhere, “Religion needs God, but God doesn’t need religion.”
Simply put: Without Mr. Ehrman’s “teachings,” I would not fully understand the kingdom of God.
My questions are: Why do you think that it is appropriate to critique Mr. Ehrman’s historical method through the strictures of Christian theology? Do you “feel sorry” for me because I have been led to a relationship with Jesus through Mr. Ehrman’s research? Do I lack “discernment?”
It is beyond clear that he has absolutely no idea what a real biblical scholar is, or what actual biblical scholarship itself is.
My comments are directed at Bart:
Befitting of his achievement as a bestseller author of novels, here Randy Alcorn writes a very eloquent and amusing review which reads like a work of fiction, than a review of the real book.
“[Ehrman] is, just like evangelicals, relying on an ultimate authority—but instead of the Bible, it’s his own intellect.”
In other words, ever since his Bible-believing years, Ehrman has learned to think for himself.
“While critics of the faith come and go, I regard Ehrman as one of the most significant modern opponents to the Christian faith. He’s a secular prophet to certain evangelical and ex-evangelical readers.”
Alcorn holds Ehrman in high esteem, as a most worthy opponent to engage with. Ehrman has the stature of a modern-day prophet.
Question for Mr Alcorn:
Bart has said someplace that in his studies of New Testament texts, he was not fearful of what he might discover, because “If it’s true, then it’s from God and you should not be afraid of it.” – or words to that effect.
My experience (including personal experience) with evangelicals is that they are afraid to look critically at the many problems in the New Testament – the contradictions, etc. Instead they turn summersaults trying to fit square pegs in round holes so they don’t have to admit that the NT is not inerrant in its specific wording.
My question is: are you able to objectively address the problems in the texts and admit that God may have used frail and imperfect human beings to communicate a message using imperfect means, including how humans garble the message over time and place, and still find God’s plan there? If not, then what do you think makes your view of the bible the ‘right’ view as opposed to other christian groups with different interpretations?
I found this really fascinating. And really appreciated the respectful tone. I agree with your observation Bart is evangelical in his promotion of his current beliefs, and it is part of what makes his opinions so compelling. But I get that from where you are coming from, it sounds dangerous and immoral. I’d really like to hear your response to the question of why someone who lived a bad life should be punished without respite for trillions of years?
[Dear Randy Alcorn,]
I understand the sentiment of this article, but I don’t see the argument.
According to previous Pope Benedictus XVI, human nature is rational because it proceeds from Reason.
Humans would not be able to reason by themselves just because rationality evolves from nothing. This vacuum cannot hold by itself, and without an original Reason, human reason would not be any reason at all.
It would be groundless, arbitrary, and ultimately dangerous.
So, if formal thought emerges it can only be a rethinking of the original “Thought.”
I was expecting that in the article, the impression of a subjective mind and the intellectual narcissism that evolves from it, would be underlined, but I see nothing at all.
Please, clarify that.
To Bart: I am a devout Christian pastor who firmly believes in Salvation through Jesus Christ. I have listened to all your Great Courses lectures, I’ve read many of your books (including Heaven and Hell) and I’ve been a blog member for a year. I’ve heard your story multiple times on how you left Christianity and it’s never come across to me as an inference that all intelligent people should follow suit. On the contrary, I’ve heard nothing but respect from you on the topic of other people’s beliefs. The knowledge I have gained from you is greatly appreciated, and trusted, because, contrary to many Christian apologists I have heard or read, I do not detect arrogance from you, and I’ve always admired your significant effort to remain unbiased to the best of your ability in rendering the fruits of your research. You have added so much to my ability to educate my congregation on scripture. When a read a review like this, two things pop into my head: 1) Mark 3:22-30, where Jesus’ work is misrepresented, and 2) The Orangutan trial that Charlton Heston was subjected to in the original Planet of the Apes.
Thanks for posting Mr. Alcorn’s review of Heaven and Hell. It reinforces my belief that you are a class act. Your work has not “deconverted” me. I was a thinking Baptist who reasoned his way out of the faith before hitting the “age of reason.” Accordingly, I was never baptized and never became a Christian. However, your writings have increased my interest in Christianity; I probably spend more time reading the Bible and books about the faith than many of my religious friends. Keep up the good work.
Not directed to either author in particular, but I am reminded of an argument against critics of Charles Darwin, concerned that his Theory of Evolution was anti religion. It must be pointed out that he did not INVENT natural selection, he DISCOVERED it by remaining objective and allowing the evidence to guide him to reasonable conclusions. This method has served science and therefore the human race beautifully for millennia. I personally am extremely cautious of arguments or platforms that rely heavily on emotional investment for this reason. The scholarship of Prof. Ehrman’s conclusions I find generally acceptable because of an overall lack of pressure for his readers to buy in. He has written many times that he has no concern about people who are happy with their beliefs and disagree with his conclusions, as opposed to the frequently (usually) passionate approach of others who aggressively defend their particular faith with personal attack and implied superiority. As a former Christian who now sees clearly the purely human origins of all religions, I appreciate the fresh eyes and opinions of a researcher with no discernible agenda but discovery, but find useless emotionally charged defensiveness that inflames the discussion.
Overall rather much an ‘ad hominem’ attack. A step further, name calling, Apostle of Deconversion.
Mr. Ehrman, as one skilled in debating, would recognize ad hominen as a tactic. ‘Opinion isn’t proof’ could be a type of fair comment.
Alcorn’s review is characteristic of a kind of disturbing trend I’ve noticed as of late in these kinds of debates, whether about scriptural exegesis, evolution, pandemics, or vaccines. A scholar presents a case based on an extensive amount of original research and/or engagement with a very substantial and long scholarly tradition and the response is “well, that’s just your *opinion*, man.” That’s not how this works. For example, Alcorn seems to think Bart’s engagement with original Biblical languages and texts, while neglecting modern evangelical views of the afterlife, is somehow a flaw (is he setting up a strawman? If so, where/how?). Or that’s is problematic to critique a specific interpretation/reading of Scripture, but then also use Scripture as a valid historical source. Bart’s thesis is either good, meaning its thesis is backed up by a careful assessment of the evidence in the original languages and in light of its historical contexts, or it’s not. But to essentially conclude that the central problem with the book is that it might deceive innocent evangelicals with its pithy writing and fancy footnotes does not really engage with its fundamental claims in a serious way.
“I feel sorry for Bart Ehrman, but I’m even more saddened at the harm done to those who embrace his teachings. We who believe the Bible must recognize this is about our adversary, Satan, who comes to destroy and devours people through persuasive arguments, and who when he lies, “speaks his native language” (John 8:44, NIV).”
1)Laugh?
2)Cry?
Pick one…
Prof Ehrman feel free to delete my post if you want. I appreciate your willingness to accommodate these folks but I doubt it will be reciprocated.
It seems to me that the clash between your two worldviews has very little to do with the specifics mentioned here.
Dr Ehrman is a historian. As such, he does his best to capture ancient ideas and personalities as they were perceived by ancient people. Moreover, his work stands or falls depending on how it is received by a community of scholars specialized in the same period, scholars who may be Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, atheists, whatever.
At best, given all of the above, a historian can only strive for probable “truth”.
You, Mr. Alcom, being a believer, are not really interested in history in that sense. You have a certain vision of Christ’s mission, of the biblical path that led up to it, and of God’s message to you now. Moreover, you belong to a Christian community that seeks solutions to their immediate problems in a language they understand, and within a worldview that makes sense.
You are, in other words, in the meaning business, not history per se. You assume your views are based on historical reality, but scholarly consensus is not really the point, is it?
Is it any surprise you two disagree?
I see this comment is still under review.
Does it offend anyone?
Randy,
Your article was spot on. We’re praying for our beloved prodigal Bart. I sat in a Pentecostal church this morning in Michigan and interceded for this man. His intellect is being used as his method of suppressing the truth of God (Romans 1). It’s clear that David believed in the afterlife. Psalm 138:8. Daniel, Isaiah, and the Talmud spoke about a resurrection prior to the period between the NT and OT. I haven’t been with the blog very long but so far Bart has been kind, responsive, and blatantly on a mission to discredit our faith. I enjoy the challenge he presents to my own firm foundation. Christians need to interact with extreme skepticism. He’s made me a much better apologist.
Glad to hear it! But let me stress, I am not at all interested in destroying anyone’s faith or having someone deconvert from their Christian commitments. Almost all of my critical remarks are directed against forms of *fundamentalist* Christianity. I don’t really much care what someone personally believes; but I do care whether they simply accept it on blind faith or if they have used their intellect — not just to support what they already think but to help them see alternatives and consider what is really true. Fundamentalists simply don’t.
Blind faith is a right though, and few people would say that faith can be experienced only through one’s mind. In fact, there is a Bible verse that says “faith is substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” I’m all for keeping religion out of science class, but I also advocate for keeping science out of religion. Keep what is “really true” in its place.
What exactly in that Psalm points to a belief in an afterlife?
Mr. Alcorn,
Do you believe a heavenly or hellish afterlife is described in the Old Testament? Isaiah 66, which you’ve quoted, provides no warrant for this view. The passage is speaking of corpses, as is clearly stated, not tormented souls. Neither does the verse from Daniel, which says nothing of eternal torture (‘everlasting shame and contempt’ is quite vague, to say the least).
For Randy,
Like Bart, I call myself a former evangelical, but unlike him, I remain a committed Christian. While I continue to worship in a church which I consider quite conservative, and love the study of the scriptures, I identify more closely with the progressive version of Christianity. In regard to an afterlife, I have an instinctive feeling that human existence does not end with death, although I don’t find much evidence in scripture that a belief in an afterlife entered Judaism before the 2nd century CE. Job 14 pretty much denies it and it doesn’t seem to be present in their hymn book, the Psalms. Contrast that with the attention it gets in Christian hymns. If people like Abraham, Moses, and David were able to have meaningful spiritual lives without an awareness of an afterlife, then I don’t think I want to focus too much on it.
I find your treatment of Bart rather uncharitable, seeming to portray him as an agent of Satan. While I don’t t share his agnosticism, I respect his intellectual integrity and feel I have learned much from him even when we disagree.
Oops! I meant to say 2nd century BCE.
Using Bible verses to prove that the Bible is “inerrant” seems a bit circular.
This question is for Mr. Alcorn. To preface the question–I lost my faith years before I read any book of Ehrman’s and consider myself an agnostic; still, I love reading books about the history of the Christian faith and have read many books of Ehrman’s and other writers on Christian history. My question is why do you feel that Ehrman is trying to deconvert Christians when he says explicitly he isn’t and do you consider scholarship you don’t like as somehow an attack?
Not understanding why my comment/question still awaiting moderation.
Randy claims he researched more than 150 books on the subject when he wrote “Heaven” butt there is “no evidence” that you did any research on the matter. How wrong is he?
I’m always willing to compare my bibliography with others, of course. It’s true, my reading was in critical scholarship as produced by scholars, not just in the U.S. but in Europe as well. But I didn’t learn from his review what he thought I had gotten wrong, only that he was disappointed that I didn’t quote the kinds of books that he read. I would be willing to go out on a limb and say the vast majority of them were not scholarship of the kind that would be accepted at say any research universities in the world, but were faith based expositions based almost entirely on interpretations of the Bible. On interpretations of the Bible, I don’t think I am particularly deficient in my reading….
Hi Randy,
My dad is an Episcopal priest, and when I was in high school around 2000 I remember him saying that Bart’s books are “dangerous” and that I should avoid reading them. Being a teenager I rebelled and I have come to read every book I can by Bart. What I have found in reading Bart’s books is that he doesn’t just assert his beliefs. He always provides lots of evidence.
In your review you say that Bart, “calmly presents his assertions, such as that Jesus and Paul disagreed on much, including the way of salvation, but shared a disbelief in an eternal hell. He says both of them, and the author of Revelation (whom he’s certain wasn’t the apostle John), taught annihilationism. He simply ignores or reinterprets passages to the contrary”. Having read Bart’s book, I know that he doesn’t just assert these things. Bart actually provides a lot of evidence, but you don’t mention any of the evidence or why you disagree with the evidence Bart presents (for example the meaning of the word Gehenna). I would love to know which pieces of evidence that Bart presents do you disagree with and why? (what is your evidence?)
Dear pastor Alcorn,
Thank you for the review. Okay, why did you consult a bunch of Hebrew scholars, and some of whom don’t hold to biblical inerrancy? So, given the evangelical position you’re in, you’ll preemptively discount the accounts given by those who don’t hold to biblical inerrancy? If your answer is ‘yes’ meaning you don’t validate them why do you have to consult such scholars in the first place? Why do you need their views at all? What makes you think that they’re right about Job’s position but wrong when it comes to the subject of inerrancy of the bible? If your answer is ‘no’ meaning you don’t discount/invalidate their accounts at all, then that means you covertly/unbeknownst subscribe to the view that the bible is indeed filled with errors. So, what’s your take? Yes or No? Kindly expand your yes or no.
‘Does he have private access to an ancient poll taken of every living person?’
So, do you have the poll results where in a time in human history there were some who believed that there would be a judgment day? If yes, can you kindly share your poll results while poor Bart forgot to share his’s?!
For Randy Alcorn: First, thanks for allowing your review to be reposted here. My question is:why you choose to address Bart’s motives instead of simply providing your concerns with his scholarship? Do you think it is possible (and/or valuable) to compare conflicting viewpoints on their relative merits, or do Bart’s beliefs render his scholarship objectionable per se? Many Thanks, Rob Stirling
Dear Randy Alcorn,
My part of the world has witnessed what Christianity and Islam have done to our indigenous beliefs, culture and heritage as a people. Our spirituality that held our societies for ages and centuries before the arrival of these foreign religions have now been labelled evil and ungodly. These religions succeeded in making our indigenous spirituality Satan himself which along with other factors have left our communities psychologically, economically, spiritually and morally disturbed.
Why can’t Christians simply live by the golden rule. Why do Christians call people names like Satan, Adversary when they also equally came into our space to destroy what we believed God naturally gave us?Why this intolerant nature?Why has BELIEF become a competition that one group so much desires to win at all cost?Do you have to call another a prophet of deconversion because he sees things differently from you? Do all Christians have the same view on these matters?
All in our bid to get everyone to embrace only ours, we end up disrespecting people’s culture, calling names that in an extreme world gives rise to violence and attacks. Do these acts truly promote the Love, Peace, Joy, Justice, Mercy,Kindness we preach?
All, to what end?
I was a former Jehovah’s Witness and they do believe largely in what is presented in Bart’s Heaven and Hell, that is they believe in a bodily resurrection on earth and that when people die they don’t go anywhere they only cease to exist. Jehovah’s Witnesses claim these are truths found in the bible and that the doctrines of hell and the inmortality of the soul are pagan and used by Satan to deceive people and these that are deceived are false christians. And so even people of “faith” such as Jehovah’s Witnesses wouldn’t have trouble reading most of this material. In my ears Randy Alcorn is using a lot of ad hominem arguments or at least mentions Bart in a strange personal way such as how he sepaks as if a wise sage, “were he a lawyer…”, he is a secular prophet, his disciples, etc. But at least Randy Alcorn is engaging in the discussion, Jehovah’s Witnesses are not even allowed to listen or glimpse at anything that doesn’t come from them and regard it as poison from Satan, even though they indirectly mention you Dr. Ehrman in minute 9 of the follwoing video: https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/#en/mediaitems/StudioMonthlyPrograms/pub-jwb_202003_1_VIDEO
Thanks so much for your post, Mr Alcorn. A few notes:
Do you have other evidence?
Interesting perspective, but he doesn’t really offer any concrete evidence, etc. otherwise? Again, seems to be a matter of faith on his and others part? Which isn’t a very good counter position. I hope I’m always open minded to good objective information in any debate; I don’t find it in his position. Bart’s just seems to more objective, etc. agree or not. As John Lennon said, “just give me some truth”.
To Randy: You write that this is “an attack on Christianity”, yet there are many Christians who do not share your belief in an eternal Hell (the Jehova’s Witnesses spring to mind). Wouldn’t you agree, at least, that it’s only an attack on the kind of Christianity that teaches an eternal Hell?
Satan!
Mr Alcorn:
Your criticism of Ehrman seems largely based on his failure to treat the Bible as an ultimate authority, and that he instead relies on his own intellect. But isn’t that what all critical scholars do? My understanding is that critical scholarship entails interpreting the Bible without applying theological assumptions, in an effort to discern historical facts that anyone could accept, irrespective of religious beliefs. Please clarify if you think Ehrman is doing a bad job of critical scholarship, or if you actually think the entire project of critical scholarship is misguided. If the former, could you identify some errors he’s made in the book?
To Randy Alcorn (Bart’s latest attack on Christianity) Didn’t Jesus say He was the way, the truth and the life (John 14:6)? Then isn’t Professor Ehrman’s work in sharing with us what scholars know about Jesus, the Bible and Christianity a step toward truth? As a believer my faith has been strengthened through better understanding of how to live such a life.
I trust both of you are sincere in your beliefs and convictions.
Dr Ehrman : a sincere evangelist in his earlier years took the road of trying to solidify his sincerity investigating what he believed only to find corruption/errors in the text to the point of disbelief.
Dr Alcorn : a sincere evangelist who can not see that the Bible has lots of errors and corruption, ascribing it to God.
Jesus who was also sincere when he said he was here not to break the law but to fulfill it. The Commandments are not only logical but are consistent with previous and post biblical scriptures.Jesus’ instructions were to follow the commandments and not sway from it. Leading to the Kingdom of God … Heaven.
Matthew 5:19-20 ( describing those who follow or not follow the commandments )
Mark 1:14-15 When his job was fulfilled, Jesus said Repent and believe in the gospel.( his gospel )
So to you Dr Ehrman, why would you throw it ALL out and disbelieve in the Almighty Creator, when you acknowledge that some of Bible is non errant and true and clearly points to a creator?
My belief or disbelief in God actually has nothing to do with the Bible. No one else’s should as well. As you probably know, Christians for the vast stretch of their history did not have much access to the Bible — certainly in the first period of the church, but also through most of time until recent centuries. None of the creeds says anything about the Bible. Faith is based on other things. My loss of faith came when I came to a point where I could no longer believed that there could be a good and loving God who was overseeing or involved with this world in any way.
This is a point you have made very clearly numerous times in the past. Unfortunately many people simply refuse to hear it. I do not understand why. It is quite obvious that what you research and write is history, not theology. When you give a personal opinion it is noted as such, and readers are certainly free to agree or disagree.
If people get upset because you relate and explain the differences in the teachings of Jesus and Paul, they simply do not understand what historians do. If their faith must rely on complete harmony between the two, then they appear to have a faith that has no need of history, and I wonder why they would read the blog anyway. The authentic Pauline corpus provides plenty of evidence complete harmony did not exist in the church of Paul’s day.
That most certainly drives Christians crazy. At least they can argue with you about your opinions on the text of the Bible, but there’s nothing they can say (that makes sense) about refusing to believe in an all-powerful god which allows suffering.
I’ve had discussions myself with Christians about the Bible and it normally goes back and forth until I talk about suffering. It’s usually at that point that the discussion ends.
Dr Alcorn,
Thanks for sharing this review.
I trust both of you are sincere in your beliefs and convictions.
Dr Ehrman : a sincere evangelist in his earlier years took the road of trying to solidify his sincerity investigating what he believed only to find corruption/errors in the text to the point of disbelief.
Dr Alcorn : a sincere evangelist who can not see that the Bible has lots of errors and corruption, ascribing it to God.
Jesus who was also sincere when he said he was here not to break the law but to fulfill it. The Commandments are not only logical but are consistent with previous and post biblical scriptures.Jesus’ instructions were to follow the commandments and not sway from it. Leading to the Kingdom of God … Heaven.
Matthew 5:19-20 ( describing those who follow or not follow the commandments )
Mark 1:14-15 When his job was fulfilled, Jesus said Repent and believe in the gospel.( his gospel )
My question to you Dr Alcorn, Not following the Commandments. Is that Jesus’ theology or Pauline theology?
There is much to address here, but let me make two points.
1] Anyone who can write about any of Prof Ehrman’s books and claim (with an apparently straight face) that any of Ehrman’s assertion are simple “arguments from authority”, or that he offers no meaningful evidence for those assertions, makes it difficult for anyone who has simply read Ehrman’s works to take such attacks seriously.
If one wishes to seriously argue against Ehrman’s points, they are certainly free to do so (and I can only imagine Ehrman would welcome such a debate). But the first step in that direction is to demonstrate to the reader that he/she has actually read, understood, and thought seriously about the positions he is attacking. Straw man arguments do little to support such attacks.
2] The reviewer also writes about the dangers of “this era of escalating deconversions, #exvangelicals, and the ‘Dones'”.
Might I suggest that perhaps one of the most significant forces driving thoughtful people into the “Done” camp is being put off by (or more simply being tired of) intellectually dishonest, and poorly thought out attacks on those who simply raise serious, thoughtful questions about the related issues.
“While his footnotes reflect extensive research in ancient Greek texts, he seems largely unaware of what the Bible or evangelical Christians claim about heaven—the new earth.” I thought you discussed plenty of what the Bible says on the subject of heaven – which is surprisingly not much. And what is the relevance of what evangelicals claim about heaven? About the same as anything I might “claim” about heaven. But no surprise: any book that doesn’t confirm the evangelical beliefs about heaven and hell is going to be criticized by them. Personally, I rejected the concept of hell based on my study of the Bible while still in Christianity, and continue to be surprised and disappointed at how fiercely believers want to hold onto the concept that a majority of humankind are doomed to eternal torment.
I might add to Mr. Alcorn, I am familiar with the passages you cite as proof of your view, but none of them specify an eternal existence for the ungodly; not when read carefully and objectively. They are commonly used as proof texts for hell, but there is no proof in those passages.
Fishician, I understand your position and would actually like to beleive it, hence have read a great deal on it. Unfortunately I can’t agree with it in light of various passages.
You are no doubt familiar with Matthew 25:46 “And they will go away into eternal (aionios) punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” And 2 Thessalonians 1:9 “They will be punished with everlasting (aionios) destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.”
I am familiar with the argument of annihilationists that ainonios isn’t a strict synonym for eternal, but “of the ages” and that it can mean a great but fininte length of time. In my Greek studies we emphasized usage and context to determine a word’s meaning, just as we should in a target translation such as English, and the contexual meaning of aionios in various passages strikes me as signficant.
The immediate context of Matthew 25:46 has Jesus using the word aionios in reference both to Heaven and Hell. If he means Hell is a finite length of time, not forever, then using the identical word of Heaven would imply Heaven also is finite, not forever. But that’s extremely hard to reconcile with a number of passages. That Jesus would have significantly different meanings for aionos when used twice within words of each other strikes me as highly unlikely.
Consider Rom. 2:7 “to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal (aionios) life” It appears life that is “aionios” is the same as immortality.
Or john 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal (aionios) life.” Doesn’t this posit aionios life ias the opposite of perishing? To never perish would be to live forever. (And IMO our understanding of perishing for those in Hell would be understood in light of aionos as Jesus used it of both eternal states in Matthew 25:41.
2 Corinthians4:17-18 For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal (aionios). What is the opposite of aionios here? Temporary. Things that are aionios don’t cease to exist. Bring these meanings of the word back to Matthew 25 and it seems that the same word that clearly means endless or everlasting life would also speak of endless or everlasting punishment. I don’t personally like that idea, I’m just seeing it as the most natural meaning. Best wishes.
Your response makes no sense. Consider the well-known John 3:16 that you mention: the opposite of NOT perishing is to perish, and the opposite of HAVING eternal life is to NOT have eternal life. Absolutely the NT speaks of eternal life for the faithful, but to stretch that to somehow mean that the others must have some sort of eternal existence instead of destruction is not logical. Destruction without hope of any further resurrection is indeed an eternal punishment.
“He is, just like evangelicals, relying on an ultimate authority—but instead of the Bible, it’s his own intellect.”
Since when is relying on intellect and reason a bad thing?
“With a few exceptions when he admits he’s not certain, I am struck by Ehrman’s unswerving confidence that he is 100 percent right.”
This is simply a false claim. A major reason I read Dr. Ehrman’s books is because he does *not* state that his opinions are 100% true, but treats his claims in terms of probabilities based on logic and reason.
I do not have a question for anyone and for the most part I am just writing to myself on this subject. I sat with my son this weekend and among other things we watch the HBO (home breast observation) mini-series “Chernobyl”. HBO must have considered this series serious because there was no hbo. Every character in the show, no matter what the situation, believed in the communist system; no matter how much they joked, complained, or ridiculed this system; they were all true believers.
Tell a Christian you have multiple problems in the scriptures is like telling a Muslin there is more than one Holy Qur’an. A Christian will start reading to you from Romans 8, a Muslin might just stone you. Both are being righteous in their mine.
I cannot help but notice that Mr. Alcorn has no letters listed which is a shame. If he had anything they should be listed (and I guess I could bing him and know for myself). This is not a reproof of his good work(s), but they would give me an idea of where he is coming from (and don’t say he’s coming from the Bible). …
…A way of answering question ‘a’ is to address question ‘b’. Mr. Alcorn seems to have aimed at ‘b’. Was the book itself in error or was the error that Dr. Ehrman wrote it? There is more of a problem with the author than with the book. I will give Mr. Alcorn a read. 150 books, that is 12 books a month, that is impressive. Why am I not impressed?
Yes, I support Dr. Bart Ehrman‘s work, I also support Dr. Tim Mackie with his work. Dr. Ehrman has been doing this for 40 years and Dr Mackie has just started with only 20 years. They are at polar opposites, yet I believe in both of their works. And I believe if they met there would be a civil conversation about what each believe and not about the others personalities.
Randy, thanks for your time.
Just to focus on Job 19:25-27; my bible (REB) reads;
“But I know that my vindicator lives
and that he shall rise at last to speak in court;
I shall discern my witness standing at my side
and see my defending counsel, even God himself,
whom I shall see with my own eyes, I myself and no other.”
Not only does this version make sense of the garbled Hebrew – as no one can claim the KJV does – it also makes sense at this point in Job’s presentation of his case.
Job has explored the possibility of a ‘heavenly’ advocate; Job 16:19. but vindication in heaven will be of no use to him, once he is dead and in Sheol, Job 17:16.
So, he considers carving his case into the rock, so that he may one day be vindicated on Earth – the only vindication that counts for him. Job 19:23-24.
But what he finds he wants, and in justice believes is only his due; is vindication on Earth in this life. From this point on in the Book of Job, that is his constant aim; for his case to be heard by God here and now.
Funny how apologists always categorize someone they feel inclined to criticize as just some other kind of apologist. i.e. “eloquent apostle of deconversion”. As if no one could approach religion or religious history without an inherited belief system. Biases aside, evangelicals never take off their “Jesus glasses”. I can’t count the number of sermons I sat through where the pastor was criticizing secularists, or non-“their preferred brand of Christian”; often suggesting that people who watch “too much” TV were worshiping television. Worshiping! Worshiping? I often asked myself, don’t you think that a Pastor would be someone who would know what worship actually is? That it’s not just enjoyment from a preferred activity or entertainment. Likewise, is every teaching or form of communication necessarily from an apostle? If I touted the beauty of some particular music am I automatically an “apostle” for it? It seems to me, that the definition is apparently so loose as to fit anything so long as it fits one’s critique of another, thus rendering it meaningless which in turn should doom the critique itself.
(Randy),
Though a fellow evangelical, I’m at a loss on a couple of your critiques.
1. You say Bart is relying on his intellect instead of Scripture. Yet you use your intellect to conclude that the Holy Spirit has told you that the Bible is the final authority. How do you avoid arguing in a circle on this point? Neither one of us would accept this type of rationale from a Muslim. Why should Bart accept ours?
2. I think you conflate the verses you cite (at your point about “He simply ignores…”). Both Bart and many evangelicals make solid cases that those verses are: a) Not addressing the same thing (it is not at all established that “Gehenna,” “destruction” nor “the Lake of fire” are synonymous nor referring to anything beyond national judgment at 70 AD); and b) When we compare Scripture with Scripture, a common evangelical misinterpretation seems apparent (e.g. the “forever smoke…” of Isaiah 34 (judgment of Edom) is clearly not literally forever. Why should we take the nearly identical language of Revelation 14 any different?
Thanks for all you do for the Kingdom,
Paul
It’s beyond me why anyone can bring themselves to believe in an eternal burning torment engineered by a loving god. I didn’t believe in such an egregious doctrine a long time before I had even heard of Bart Ehrman, while I was still an evangelical Christian and believed in an inerrant Bible. It’s not Scripturally based! Years ago I worked for a non denominational Christian organization that felt it had to insert this heinous doctrine in their Statement of Faith. They refused to remove it and I sadly left the organization. Dr. Ehrman in his latest book does an excellent job of underscoring the fallacy of eternal torment based on the Bible and describing its real origin.
This question is for Alcorn.
You say: “I feel sorry for Bart Ehrman, but I’m even more saddened at the harm done to those who embrace his teachings. We who believe the Bible must recognize this is about our adversary, Satan, who comes to destroy and devours people through persuasive arguments, and who when he lies, “speaks his native language” (John 8:44, NIV).”
As I read it Ehrman is being accused of being an instrument of Satan since you had discussed Ehrman’s persuasive arguments earlier: “Were he a lawyer he could take either side in any case and would likely persuade the jury” and “he has become an eloquent apostle of deconversion, and his disciples are many.”
Did you mean to say this? Or were you just saying that Satan also uses persuasive arguments? It might help to say something like “I’m not saying Satan is using Ehrman” when you put sentences like that so close together.
Hi Randy- In just your first few paragraphs, you call Bart a false teacher who aids downward spiritual trajectories, says Christians are dead-wrong, and teaches deconversion doctrines, with no evidence presented of said judgments. None of that is factual, but I’ll be charitable. Bart is a scholar, historian, author, teacher, and a nice guy (I’m sure you are too!) His works include facts, history and evidence, as well as feelings and opinions, which he clearly delineates.
I disagree with many of Bart’s opinions, but his scholarship? No. Take a single step back and evaluate the bible based on scholarship, history, etc, and the entire religious facade crumbles. “God’s” heaven? Failure. There was revolt! Plan for man? Failure, they sinned, and just look at the endless mess. Plan for Christianity? failure. Legends aside, not one of “The 12” actually accomplished anything. Plan for the future? A convoluted “battle”, with, oh, 97% of all life is destroyed and bound for hell. Really? A years-long battle? Why all the drama? It all sounds so very much like…classical Graeco-Roman god mythologies. No need to feel sorry for Bart, or those he has “harmed”, for he has done no harm. Except to christian mythologies.
I think the reviewer has badly misunderstood the point of Prof Ehrman’s book. That is, he repeatedly attacks the book by stressing that the arguments made in the book disagree with views held by certain modern readers of the Bible.
That’s fine; one is certainly free to chose how one wishes to interpret what the Bible says. However this has virtually nothing to do with the main point of Ehrman’s book, which is an assessment of the historical development of views concerning the afterlife.
Perhaps this misunderstanding is made clearest by the following which concerns a passage from Job discussed in Ehrman’s book:
> I consulted 12 major translations by different teams of Hebrew scholars, some of
> whom don’t hold to biblical inerrancy. Their translations contain only minor differences.
> All of them suggest Job is indeed speaking of seeing God in the afterlife.
Readings taken from popular translations have no relevance to this discussion. The contents of such translations are, virtually by definition, essentially required to smooth over any such rough spots in the text. Citing them says nothing about any problems in the underlying text (which in this case are made clear in any serious, critical translation of Job).
Randy
In this era of escalating deconversions, exvangelicals, and the “Dones” (with church), Ehrman is a major instrument in countless readers’ downward spiritual trajectory.
Steefen
That is spiritually criminal, if true.
Randy
Ehrman seeks to build credibility by sharing his testimony of conversion to unbelief. The personal testimony has been used by faith-affirmers to reach the lost. Now it has become a tool of faith-deniers to reach the found.
Steefen
It is important that people aspire and commit to an upward trajectory, to a high way, to being a good citizen, not a criminal, to be helpful not harmful.
As a historical accuracy of the Bible investigator who has concluded Jesus is a composite character of historical fiction who found his mission so pleasing to God in the beginning but later was led to an awareness of his delusion of God’s pleasure and support. God, the owner of the Holy Land Vineyard, sent key representatives to their deaths. Jesus’ “testimony” was a delusion of upward spiritual trajectory. His gospel could not prevent the Tribulation of the Jewish uprising against Rome (the Jewish Revolt) and the Jewish Civil War (66-70/73 CE), the Kitos War (115–117 CE), and the Bar Kokhba revolt (132–136 CE).
Mr Alcorn, in his career, Jesus performed few miraculous cures. He didn’t eradicate a disease or cure the sick on distant continents. The bible is criticized for making extraordinary claims on sparse evidence but in this case, the claims aren’t extraordinary, they are mundane. Given the miracles Jesus did perform and what he was capable of, shouldn’t he have done more?
One of the great mysteries of the universe is peoples’ unwavering desire to hold fast to their beliefs and consider that they could possibly be wrong. Look at Christianity with even an ounce of skepticism and it falls apart. This same God who sent his son to lovingly die for us also flooded the earth, cursed all women for all time with pain in child bearing for the sin of one woman, has allowed his “chosen” people to endure unspeakable atrocities. And why all the blood? God can’t forgive without blood? What kind of barbaric nonsense is this? My parents taught me how to forgive… no blood required. I can’t believe I ever believed it. Thank the gods for Bart Ehrman and his perspective.
For Randy,
Are there (in your view) any other Old Testament passages besides Job that speak of a future bodily (physical) resurrection of the dead? If so, please give some examples.
Thank You
Although a faith-based “theology” and the university discipline of “Religious Studies” are frequently lumped together, there is a vast difference between them. A lot of faith-based theology (Alcorn’s work would be here) has unfortunately too many UNQUESTIONED presuppositions (such as divine revelation, etc.) supporting it — assumptions which, when subjected to the critical criteria of a university discipline, would be found wanting. Dr. Ehrman applies these critical criteria to aspects of Christian belief so it is just natural that traditional Christian faith (left unexamined critically for too long) is clarified as to how, when, where, why, it developed in history. I’d say, the only kind of Christian faith that will truly become relevant to most people in the West today is a faith that could stand up to the scrutiny of Dr. Ehrman’s work. It’s not useful at all to call him an “opponent.” I’d say he should be considered a catalyst that could potentially bring about a Christian faith that is more suited to people who don’t want to leave their critical thinking skills and historical consciousness in the parking lot before entering the church. Is that faith still possible? That’s the challenge!
Randy, thank you for sharing your perspective. As an undergraduate in religious studies, I have so much to learn, so I proceed with caution before giving an opinion on subjects I have not studied. But I agree that many scholars like Ehrman, who are not Christians or have more liberal views at times, undermine or utterly dismiss the opinions of well-qualified evangelical scholars. I wish that were not the case. However, nothing you said refuted the evidence Bart provided for his views. You pointed out some passages he did not mention, but how does that positively support your perspective? With that said, I believe the arguments a person gives matter more in a debate than the actual person. Most of your article felt like an attack on Bart the person rather than his arguments.
Many only focus on the few God themes in the Bible rather than the more common theme of mans relationship to others and social order, as in the Code of Hammurabi or the Shastras. Whether you want to attribute the verses to God or the schools of scholars who wrote them, they are the basis of western culture. Also, arguing and commenting on them probably started when the first verse was put to parchment and is still going strong.
well, on the plus side he does give you much credit for the changing beliefs in America. what is very baffling to me is not only is there such a limited amount of knowledge among so many, but also that they would prefer to “stick their head in the sand or go lalala”. rather than THINK for themselves when one studies history/religion/evolution/psychology and how humanity acts toward those who are different(not to mention all the natural disasters) and realizes the cruelty and injustices of this world such as children born deformed, diseased, starving, and abused, as you often say HUMAN SUFFERING is a bit hard to explain with a LOVING god. you did not influence me away from religion as I have never really believed in a god(was skeptical as far back as can remember) but I HAVE benefited greatly from your knowledge and writings. thank you for all that you do.
Randy, you stated “With a few exceptions when he admits he’s not certain, I am struck by Ehrman’s unswerving confidence that he is 100 percent right. He is, just like evangelicals, relying on an ultimate authority—but instead of the Bible, it’s his own intellect.”
Do you actually believe that Bart views his scholarship as inerrant? If so, do you have anything to back up this claim? If not, would you be willing to apologize to Bart for slandering him simply because you were so annoyed at how scholarship often doesn’t come to the same conclusion as faith-based interpretations of the Bible?
A large number of commenters alluded to me being unfair to Bart and accusing him of an air of certainty when obviously I am guilty of the same and worse. So I am going to give a long reply here covering a number of interrelated concerns and hope others see it, as I can’t repeat to everyone. (If I were more familiar with commenting on this blog maybe I’d know a better way.) Given my belief that Scripture is God-breathed, provided that I’m interpreting it well (sometimes I do, sometimes not), I can have confidence in believing something even when it’s not my preference. I can believe it not because I think I’m smarter than everyone, but because I think God is smarter than I am. Even if you think supernaturalism is a faulty worldview, I’m being consistent with it. IMO a materialist/naturalist acts consistently with her or her worldview when they don’t believe in . an afterlife. I look to the Bible as a higher authority, and I think I have good reasons for that (ofcourse, many of you don’t). But I’m struck when people who don’t believe in a higher authority seem to be absolutely certain, say, that an apostle couldn’t have written a particular NT book. They are as certain on this as the most adamant fundamentalist is certain on other things (I am not a fundamentalist but I do believe the Bible.) When such people read my books it’s not surprising they are positive I’m wrong despite the evidence I usher and the scholars I cite. (There are thousands of pages with IMO cogent arguments written by scholars who believe apostles wrote certain books which other scholars believe they didn’t.) I often have a similar response when someone declares something with certainly because “scholars say” and “educated people believe” and “in my studies I have found.” I don’t think Bart always does that, as I said I did see occasional admissions of uncertainty in his book, I am just saying sometimes I think he declares something to be true because, well, he’s a smart guy and that’s his opinion, it makes most sense to him, that’s what the books and journal articles he reads say, and the teachers he sat under taught. EXACTLY the same is true of evangelicals ( everyone else). We all have our vested interests in some opinions because of our intuition, preferences, upbringing, training and sometimes wonderful or terrible experiences. But “scholars say” always leaves out the scholars who do not say that but something very different. When I write my books I’m prone to cite scholars I agree with. I assume Bart does too. At the end of the day, my impression is he believes he’s right, I get that, as I believe I’m right, and we both cite our sources. That’s just the human way, hard as we try to self-correct we are subjective. OK, I will come back finally to address the belief that I have slandered Bart.
I’ve changed my mind on various things, maybe Bart has too. I wish I wouldn’t have cited info that at the time appeared accurate but turned out not to be (my publishers can cringe when I insist on another revision). To your point about slander, I don’t consider it slander to say that I believe someone appears to think he’s right far more often than he really is, or speaks with an air of certainty. That is often the case and I think it tends to be more true of pastors, teachers, philosophers, researchers and scholars, including historians. I do not take offense at the people who say the same of me. (Trust me, I’ve had scathing book reviews from people of other worldviews, and many reading this would fully agree with them, as is your right.) I am grateful Bart is open to the exchange of viewpoints and invited me here. Good for him. Naturally he disagreed with much of my review. But spirited and opinionated book reviews are not slander. I gave my honest assessment of the book. You believe I was “annoyed at how scholarship often doesn’t come to the same conclusion as faith-based interpretations of the Bible.” There’s that “scholarship” again, which doesn’t acknowledge countless scholars, scientists and historians who are faith-based. Why? Because…they must not really be scholars? Is it only other people, not us, who filter data through our own grids? I don’t mean that as slander or insult, I just think we all have greater vested interests than we realize. I apologized to Bart in a comment yesterday where someone rightly pointed out I’d misrepresented something Bart said. I went back to his book, looked it up then contacted two editors to make that correction. I think Bart and I are both accustomed to people with other worldviews mischaracterizing us, hopefully not deliberately. I would say this, though, and it validates some of your criticisms. As I told Bart, I wrote that article for an evangelical audience not for this blog, and there was much that could be assumed there that didn’t apply here. The review was especially off-target to an audience understandably loyal to Bart. Above all, had Bart and I exchanged emails and had I known him I would have worded certain things differently. When I don’t know someone and only see their words it’s easier to be insensitive to them in critiquing their work. I realize now that when someone says things I believe are untrue and misleading—and with what are to me stakes of biblical proportions—and I don’t know them, I am less likely to give them the benefit of the doubt. I was basing my impressions on the five or so of Bart’s books I’ve read and the debates I’ve seen him in. But that’s not an adequate sampling to form judgments. In retrospect I spoke too adamantly and even harshly and uncharitably at points, and for that, Bart, I am truly sorry.
A rather long response to allude specific theological questions brought forth to you.
Bart does not necessarily answer theological questions.and for the record …Joining the blog does not at all proclaim loyalty to the Bart. If you read the comments and contributions on and to the blog, you will hardly conclude that we all agree with and nod our heads to Bart.
Still awaiting your answer ( still in moderation )
Thanks
Randy, thank you for taking the time to reply and for your willingness to reflect on the way you described Dr. Ehrman.
Bart has often stated that he is open to being wrong and willing to change his positions in light of new evidence. That seems to be a striking difference between the type of scholarship he does and what evangelicals are often willing to do.
As others have pointed out, mischaracterizations of this nature strike many of us as having the effect of polluting Dr. Ehrman’s character and implying that his scholarship can or should be dismissed by Christians seeking to learn more deeply about the Bible.
Christians have nothing to fear from the truth, and I hope you will do less to discourage them from reading Bart’s writings and more to encourage them to grapple with the issues he, and scholars like him, bring to us.
Randy, unfortunately I noticed that much of your review consisted of comments designed to undermine Bart Ehrman’s credibility among your presumed believing evangelical readers. You begin by calling Bart’s books ‘repetitive’, then you attempt to mock by calling him a ‘wise sage’, and you misattribute intention to him by calling him an ‘Apostle of Deconversion’, something Bart himself has been moved to refute in this thread already and which those of us familiar with his work already know is not the case.
It appears to me that this attempt to be dismissive of Bart’s credibility, especially by somewhat cheap humorous comment, is designed to reassure your evangelical audience that they can dismiss what Bart says without needing to engage.
I think that is regrettable, and by leaving your readers in their comfort zone in this way you do them a disservice.There are some issues to be faced, and it would have been good to see more of your article devoted to facing them.
Thank you for this contribution Randy. I’ve looked at many Christian apologist books (not yours yet) and internet videos for some time, and haven’t found an apologist who will talk honestly without special pleading, circular argumentation, intentionally unclear language, telling another person what he/she thinks, or statements that clearly indicate they don’t understand ‘burden of proof’.
I’ve had no experience of any sort of the supernatural in my 63 years, nor have I spoken to anyone else who convincingly has.
So may I ask you what evidence you have for the real existence of Heaven and Hell? I would regard references to Biblical sources alone as special pleading, since a devout Hindu would deny any such claims on the basis of his own sacred texts that contradict this claim. Testimonial evidence is likewise unreliable and proven in countless cases to be completely false, though often given with good honest intention.
Randy,
There’s not a lot of constructive things I can say regarding your review of Bart’s book- it was far more ad hominem than anything else.
One thought did occur to me regarding your last line, “‘we “must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that [we] can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it” (Titus 1:9).” ”
To do this, you must assume you know the exact sound doctrine. I found this ironic when you claim Bart was certain in his beliefs. In order to test the validity of doctrine one needs to scrutinize it. Unless you use circular logic to presuppose the bible is God’s Word because it says it’s God’s word, one would think you’d welcome historical and textual criticism from Ehrman to help uncover that truth/sound doctrine. There is some more irony, I think, that the verse you quoted is a pseudonymous/forged letter as supported by most textual critics.
Are you so certain the majority of critical experts are wrong?
Are you certain the author of Titus is correct despite the differences in Christianity at the time?
Could the author be wrong?
Do you have faith or Certainty?
They cannot mutually exist.
Thanks so much, Bart, for posting Alcorn’s review. As you might imagine, I *do* run into some antipathy to you, Bart, in my (oldline Protestant) Bible study. More antipathy than I would expect , really. Alcorn helps me understand that. His “apostle of deconversion” tag is helpful to me for understanding what I’ve encountered.
Many thanks! <3
Mr. Alcorn may be sincere, but he is mistaken and seems dishonest when he describes Dr. Ehrman as an “eloquent apostle of deconversion.” This is simply false, as anyone who has read Dr. Erhman knows. Dr. Erhman is not in any way proselytizing for or against any theological position. Mr. Alcorn’s complaints and arguments can be equally placed on any work of scholarship about a subject that does no fit within Mr. Alcorn’s fundamentalist theology that wishes all Christians to be uninformed.
Randy, what do you make of Matthew 27: 50-54 where we are told that at the moment of Jesus’ death, the bodies of many holy people rose from their tombs and went into Jerusalem and appeared to many people? Did it actually happen or is this rhetorical flourish? If you do believe it happened, where are the independent testimonials of such an extraordinary event…from say Jews….and why is it not even in the other Gospels? If it didn’t actually happen, then how do we know when other miraculous stories aren’t just literary tools introduced to help build a religion?
If we are to believe that the dead did come back to life, why don’t we have stories from them directly about the after life? Wouldn’t that be one of the first things that a witness, friend, or family member would ask? The same goes for the story of Lazarus, again only found in one gospel (John). How is it plausible that we have no testimony from Lazarus himself, no ministry, and here….most importantly…no tales of the after life? It’s like Lazarus serves his role…and like Joseph of Arimethea….quickly exits stage left. I appreciate hearing your thoughts.
To Randy: I don’t understand how you can impune Bart’s motives for his work? I’ve read Bart making admissions to being wrong in previous statements based on new information. What about you? You list scriptures you state Bart ignores or reinterprets concerning hell. I would say Bart’s book very satisfactorily addressed the counter views you hold. You state Bart handles scripture in 4 different ways, inferring he is inconsistent. That would only be true if all scripture is consistent or systematic. But how can you make such a claim and still lump Jude 13 in with your other hell scriptures? How does fire exist in deepest darkness? If all scripture has the same weight, how do you reconcile Ecc 9:2-6 with your interpretation? Here’s the difference I detect between you and Bart. If you were on one side of the road and Bart on the other and you were looking at the mutilated carcass of a roadkill, you might claim it was a dog and Bart might claim it was a cat. If I walked over to it and held up a hoof, I bet Bart would say he was wrong and you would say I was the AntiChrist.
Randy,
You state: “Ehrman negates Job by citing a Jewish scholar who says, “The text has been garbled and we cannot tell exactly what Job intended to say.” This scholar adds, “Job is almost certainly not talking about seeing God in the afterlife.”
I consulted 12 major translations by different teams of Hebrew scholars, some of whom don’t hold to biblical inerrancy. Their translations contain only minor differences. All of them suggest Job is indeed speaking of seeing God in the afterlife.”
Does that mean that you actually consulted with the Hebrew scholars, or interpreted their work yourself?
Thanks.
I don’t have 12 teams of Hebrew scholars on speed dial, but I do have their English translations and those are what I compared. In my opinion, having studied the passage and comparing Hebrew commentaries, Job does speak of a resurrection.
The point is that this has no relevance to the point Prof Ehrman is making.
It is (virtually by definition) the job of any popular translation to smooth over this kind of problem in the published text. The fact that the translators have made a deliberate, conscious decision to choose one reading over another says nothing about issues in the underlying text.
For example there are literally dozens of places in the text of the Hebrew Scriptures where no one is certain of the meaning of the text. Similarly, there are many more places throughout the Bible where, even if the the text itself is clear, issues of translation make such choices absolutely essential to make a readable translation. These are simple facts.
Some (but far from all) popular translations contain footnotes noting some of these problems. But again, the issue is that the choices of the translator, in themselves, say nothing about the existence of possible problem in the underlying text.
OTOH problems like these are made clear in any serious, critical translation. For the current topic might I suggest an easily accessible translation of Job, such as the one in the Anchor Bible series.
For Randy, regarding Job 19:25-26: I don’t know which translations you consulted, but my go-to translator is Robert Alter, one of the preeminent Biblical Hebrew scholars at work today. His comment on verse 25 is that it uses the imagery of a legal trial and that “my redeemer” is a family member or someone else who knows Job well and will come forth to “stand up on earth” to say that Job never sinned. After that, Job will “in the end behold God, come face-to-face with his divine persecutor and finally vindicate himself” (comment on v. 26). Alter makes no suggestion that this describes or intends an afterlife.
I am aware of the common use of the Hebrew word gaol as the Kinsman Redeemer, as in Ruth, and certainly that could be partially in mind, but I think the passage makes the gaol here much larger, a Messianic Redeemer that Job will see after death and in the resurrection, and standing on a new earth. Various commentators beleive this, as the one you cite apparently does not.
‘Commentators’ here is a slippery term I think, Randy. It is common – maybe even expected – that fIRH-Baws Christian biblical commentaries of the Hebrew Bible will read it with half an eye (or more than half an eye) on the New Testament. But that is religious discourse, and not critical scholarship. In critical terms, the only commentators that are relevant for discussion of this passage are those that take the Hebrew text on its own terms.
So, absent the New Testament entirely, what features of this chapter of Job would lead a Hebrew commentator to read it as referring to a Messianic Redeemer – or any sort of Messianic figure. Could you perhaps point to Jewish Rabbinc sources that do so?
And crucially, is there any part of this particular passage – outside of speculative renderings of the corrupted verse 26 text – that uneqivocally point to Job aspiring to a vindication in a future ‘life after death’?
Job is complaining about the wrongs done to him that he does not deserve, that his “vindicator” (the NJPS translation) will testify for him while he is still on earth (literally, “on the dust”), and he will see God while still “in the flesh.” The word used here is “basar,” a word that mean any kind of living animal or man.
Your reading of “goali” is, I fear, a Christian retrofit. (“Gaol” is a verb form.) Most of the Scriptural uses of “goal”, including but not limited to Ruth, mean a kinsman, sometimes an avenger. Given that Job’s “goal” is going to testify on his behalf, “vindicator” is appropriate. Alter, who translates is as redeemer, says this is in the context of a legal court. Given all that, reading Job’s “goali” as a messianic redeemer can only be done if taken totally out of context. Can you cite any Jewish commentators who read it that way?
For Randy: I find in your review an appeal to the argument from consequences, a fallacy which rejects an argument not because it is false but because it doesn’t like the consequences that follow the conclusion. Suggesting, for example, that Satan would approve of this book is, frankly, a polemic, and I don’t see that it contributes anything to the discussion.
By the way, while Ehrman does say that the OT doesn’t speak about eternal bliss or punishment, it is not correct to say, as you did, that he denies the OT ever speaks of resurrection. Page 121: “Daniel is the first and in fact only book of the entire Hebrew Bible to predict that a resurrection of the dead would come at the end of time.” This statement is consistent with the conclusion that many scholars of the Bible have drawn, some of which he cites.
Dankoh, seeing your comment about Bart’s words on page 121, I went back to the full context of the original and you are absolutely right, he does say that, and I was wrong to say otherwise. Somehow in my notes about his view of Job 19 not referring to resurrection I failed to recognize his treatment of Daniel 12. My bad. If you read this, Bart, sorry and I will submit a change to the editor.
Randy,
You quote 2 Timothy 4:3-4 regarding false teachers and later express how “sorry” you feel for Bart and those may be led astray by his writings, identifying the real culprit as Satan. In my experience, many or even most of those that deconvert are not at all seeking to have their ears tickled, nor do they turn aside to “myths”’ but rather have been some of the most biblically well informed, sincere, honest, seekers of truth. I find these types of assertions incredibly condescending, and not based on any objective evidence. These statements rank right up there with “you weren’t a ‘true’ Christian” and “you just want to sin”, on the condescension scale.
Question for Randy: Do you have any evidence that those who deconvert are insincere and only wanting their ears tickled, and/or any evidence that Satan actually exists and is able to influence Bart and his readers?
Question for Bart: Do you find these types of statements condescending and what is your response?
No, I beleive many who deconvert (and I know a number personally) are absolutely sincere. I believe they are wrong, as you’d expect I would, but I certainly beleive people can be sincerely wrong.
As a reader of a number of Bart’s books [have NOT read H&H yet] and viewer of a few of his Great Courses, I can truly say if Bart’s objective is/was “deconversion” from my Catholicism, he has failed. And miserably so, since my faith has actually strengthened! Why? Because relieving Scripture of the burden of historical inerrancy (as other sources have done for scientific accuracy) allows me to focus on what, IMO, the Bible really is…a moral code of conduct handed down by a higher authority which, if adhered to, will reward a person spiritually. So yes, I’m still a theist (more accurately a deist) who believes in an afterlife. Now if I were raised fundamentalist I may not have gotten this far and would have had problems reconciling historical and scientific issues to the detriment of ignoring the true message(s) of Scripture. So Dr. Alcorn doesn’t need to feel sorry for me or offer up any Novenas…I’m doing just fine!
I’m sorry but this has to be the most un-academic, un-intelectual review I have ever read.
Given Mr. Alcorn’s credentials I was expecting a review full of strong, solid arguments against Ehrman’s ideas. But no!… what stands out in the review is the repeated whining about Bart’s encouragment to deconversion.
Jesus!…
Somehow, I don’t think we both read the same book. I read a history book, Randy seems to have read a religious book. I’ll bet the words were the same though.
Bart:
This brings up a point I’ve been thinking about for a long time, and may even have asked you about before: How can people of intellect and science still believe in God, or more specifically, the Christian Bible? How can a person who practices science still profess a life philosophy that is the antithesis of science? I truly don’t understand.
I would be very interested in you publishing in your blog some of their opinions/reasoning. I’d like to hear from people who use logic and reasoning to express themselves. When I ask that question of other sources I get only emotional answers.
As you know, there are many thousands of scientists who are believers. Almost never do they believe in the Bible literally; but either to millions of other people. There actually is nothing about non-fundamentalist Christianity that stands at odds with science. Of course if you believe in creation, and Adam and Eve, and … such things, yes, there’s a problem. But if you look on the bible as a human book written by fallible humans who just didn’t understand how the world works, but who did have deep insights into spiritual reality — then there in theory should not be much of a problem.
I’m just replying as a scientist with a few points.
1) A common (perhaps cliche) notion of God among scientists seems to be that God is the answer to “why?”, rather than “how?” (e.g., there’s probably no way to know, through science, why any matter/energy exists to begin with or how/why the Big Bang occurred).
2) There are MANY different types of scientist and areas of scientific research and, in the end, “scientist” is a job and we’re just people who take different things to/from our work.
3) It’s tiring–and impossible–to try to apply hard scientific reasoning to all things in one’s life, even with years of training and experience. And there are many fields that don’t necessarily have data/evidence to answer with science (e.g., political philosophy).
4) I’m not religious, but I still hold irrational, non-scientific beliefs (e.g., that human life is extremely valuable and the survival of our species is important, despite our species being utterly inconsequential cosmically). I can make strong, logical arguments that build on premises associated with such beliefs, but I acknowledge the core premise is not rational. That doesn’t make me anti-science or a bad scientist, just a person.
Randy thanks for contributing to Bart’s Blog,
Your post appears more a critique of Bart’s popularity rather any particular thesis in his new book. One thesis he puts forward is that Jesus did not teach eternal torment of the ‘unsaved’. I am assuming you disagree with that. But that is not my question. It is the flip side.
I see you have book also on Heaven, which I suppose you describe Jesus’ teachings on the environment the ‘saved’ may expect .
Dr Ehrman contends that Jesus taught that the fate of the ‘saved’ is immortal life on earth, no sickness, no physical death, also no more births, no natural disasters (earthquakes, floods, or droughts – I guess just the exact amount of rain). Even those previously dead will physically resurrect to join the living on earth.
He does not believe Jesus taught the existence of heavenly realm as in the Lazarus story in Luke
[if that is incorrect maybe Bart can clarify]
Conversely, my study lets me to universalism as Jesus most likely concept.
Do you agree with Bart’s conception of Jesus teachings of immortal earthly life for the saved, universal salvation, or something else
I’m not sure of Bart’s belief about the biblical teaching of the New Earth, but my understanding of Scripture is that just as a person’s body dies and is ultimately destroyed then miraculously risen again (Jesus in John 5:28-29), so the earth itself will be destroyed then miraculously risen again (2 Peter 3:13). Hence the New Earth of Isaiah 65 and 2 Peter 3:13 and Revelation 21-22 parallels the new body of 1 Corinthians 15 and other passages. Then resurrected children of God will not float in an immaterial angelic dwelling place but live forever on the New Earth, where God will come down and forever dwell with his people (Revelation 21:3). Hence, my understanding is that the present pre-resurrection Heaven will be transformed into the eternal post-resurrection Heaven centered on the New Earth.
thanks for the answer
my interest is more Jesus concept of Heaven than that of Peter ( 2 Peter 3) or Paul (Cor) or John (Rev), who are all writing post Jesus, But since you bring up Isaiah 65 do you have any comment on Isaiah 65:20 ?
This verse, though clearly speaking of new earth, is at odds with idea of no births and no deaths .
I see no reason to think Jesus’ ‘Kingdom of God’ to be so radically different than Isaiah’s ‘new earth’.
I think this is the core of the problem here.
Here, as elsewhere, you bring up Prof Ehrman’s “beliefs”. Likewise, it would appear much of your criticism of Ehrman’s book is that it supports positions that, you say, differ from the modern beliefs of certain evangelical Christians.
But Ehrman’s book has nothing to do with his, or anyone’s, beliefs. Rather, the book discusses the historical development of views on the afterlife held by various groups. Why is this a conflict?
If one chooses to believe, well, anything one is certainly free to do so. But discussing facts of history is a different thing. The two lines of argument are fundamentally unrelated and, again, I don’t see why there should be a conflict between the two.
OTOH, if one wishes to call into question certain conclusions about history, such as those put forward in Ehrman’s book, again, one is free to do so. But the proper way to do this is to systematically discuss the evidence behind those conclusions. Simply stating that those conclusions might differ in some details from an unrelated topic (such as the beliefs of certain individuals) doesn’t, in any way, make the same point.
Randy, and Bart,
It appears to me you two agree that jesus and new testament authors held similar concepts on the ultimate dwelling place of the saved – on physical earth where they are joined by the resurrected righteous and where they all live immortally, with no more births, no diseases, no hurricanes, nor any other unpleasantries .
Then where are the unsaved ?
a. are they also on earth but somehow segregated from the ‘saved’ ? -this would be odd – the saved would surly not be comfortable knowing someplace else on earth their former acquaintances are being tormented.
or
b. are they in some different (spiritual ?) realm, such as Dante and most of us commonly understand hell?
but if God created this realm for the damned. it would be odd he wouldn’t have created a counterpart for humans what we call heaven
or
c. are they annihilated ?
The issue, for both of you, I think is misunderstanding of what Jesus understood as fate for the righteous
Mr. Alcorn says:
“No reader could imagine Ehrman is urging belief in heaven or hell. But it seems intellectually dishonest to say he isn’t encouraging disbelief in them. Arguably that is a central purpose of the book.”
I think Mr. Alcorn is missing the difference between academic persuasion and evangelization. Dr. Ehrman is making the argument that early Jewish/Christian views of Heaven and Hell are different than contemporary ones, and certainly what most people think they believed. Let’s leave aside whether he is correct. The views of those living 2000 years ago on the existence or nature of Heaven and/or Hell should surely have zero weight in determining what we believe or disbelieve today. Our acceptance or not of the proposition should be based on the evidence, not on what others believe or believed. We wouldn’t base our beliefs in other propositions (such as whether there is land to the west of Europe, or whether women should have equal rights) on those grounds.
As to the purpose of the book, to establish what early Jews and Christians believed about the afterlife (or whether they believed in one at all), the review has almost nothing to say, so there is little to respond to.
Re: Mr. Alcorn’s summation of Bart Ehrman. Either gentleman can comment:
-Usnure 2 Timothy 4:3-4 is a proper correlation, esp. with reference to “former insiders.”
-Job seeing God again in the afterlife: Are you debating whether Job will see God or where he will see God? Since the umbrella topic is heaven, is it not earth where God shall bring his kingdom after resurrecting the dead? I’ve heard this repeated many times from Dr. Ehrman when he explains the Judaic view. Christian belief is that heaven is apart from earth.
-Why should reading a plethora of evangelical books on heaven be required to state one’s case concerning historical accounts of where the concepts of heaven and hell come from? Unless they were written by people that were resurrected there’s probably little to offer.
-Writing about disbelief is not encouraging anything (deconversion); it’s simply stating a case. Many of our personal journeys brought us illumination long before discovering there was an Ehrman. He need not knock on doors if we seek truth.
– Historians may inadvertently “deconvert.” That’s a sign of a theist’s own doubts not Ehrman’s might.
-A fair critique is one thing. Vilifying another in order to sustain your own position isn’t quite justifiable.
Randy,
Your review has left me wondering how you personally reconcile the difference between faith and certainty regarding your theology and the sources of that theology. I know this is somewhat vague but any thoughts your may have on the matter could help me understand your perspective a little better.
Thank you,
Will
Will, What a great question. I don’t think faith equals certainty or produces it, among finite creatures such as ourselves knowledge can be real but never absolute. The Greek word translated faith is usually pistis, and it can just as easily be translated trust. I prefer trust because in my thinking belief is most often in something, and trust more often in someone. I do believe truths about God, but I trust God himself, not just facts about Him. I trust not simply that Jesus is God and Lord and Savior, but I trust in the Jesus who IS God, Lord and Savior. But that doesn’t mean I’m certain what will happen and when. I do trust Him to keep his promises and that is a source of great assurance, grounded in both my belief and long experience that He is faithful. I think the word confidence is good, as in the NIV and other renderings of Hebrews 11:1, faith is the confidence in things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Some desperately cling to the faith that God will save their dying loved one from death. But we all die, and normally God’s children are not promised He will save our lives, but that he will be with us in death and raise us up in the resurrection. Too many people, e.g. in prosperity theology, have faith not in God but in their faith—if only they can bolster it up God will give them their way. My faith/trust is in God is not in mustering up beliefs that He is going to do exactly as I ask Him. This is very relevant right now as my wife has stage 4 cancer and humanly speaking she will in all probability die from it. We still pray for healing, but if God doesn’t heal her He’s not breaking His promise and we trust Him that resurrection and eternal life awaits. I truly beleive I will be reunited with her in God’s presence. Sure I want to beleive that but there are many things I want to beleive but nonetheless don’t. God is not a genie and prayer and faith are not a magic lamp to get him to do my bidding. He is God, I am not. I am His child and servant. I trust Him. Now, in the process of life I have developed such confidence in Him that my assurance at times feels like a subjective sense of certainty. Doubts and uncertainty are natural and normal, but as I look to God in life’s easy times but especially the hardest ones, my trust/faith in Him is for sure a firm confidence that often feels like certainty but certainty doesn’t strike me as the right word, it’s not a synonym for faith. Of course, people can feel certain something’s true when it isn’t. But by faith we can trust Jesus for what is true even knowing we can’t fully grasp it. Just my thoughts.
first, thank you for your time and patience for “entering the lion’s den here” and secondly probably everyone on this blog will have the best wishes for you and your wife.i would have a number of questions but after learning this I would prefer to defer to another time. I would like to ask only one. if we were all god’s children why do you think he might have singled out Abraham and his tribe as his chosen people. throughout history from then until now many highly charismatic people(men) have enormously swayed people through:” religion” . including jim jones, marshall Applewhite, david koresh, joseph smith, and even l ron hubbard(unbelievably) do you honestly believe Abraham might not have been a bit off in some way?look at where in this world the three Abrahamic religions originated and tell me the people of the time were wildly different than they are today. i’ll bet you can easily dismiss islam and even a fair amount of Judaism. again, thank you for your time spent here
To Randy: I would not rely on a 2000 year old book of legal procedure to acquit or convict anybody today; I would not rely on a 2000 year old medical treatise to treat an ill person today; I would not rely on a 2000 year old book of science to explain the natural universe as we know it today…Why should I rely on a 2000 year old book on morality to guide my actions today?
Hi Randy, please comment…
Thanks for participating in this blog!
I have read your comments to Fuller Seminary on the subject of Inerrancy. For many, it is difficult (nigh impossible) to refute the sincere arguments for Inerrancy. However, Romans 14:21 comes to mind. If your brother is sincere, yet cannot understand and embrace the concept of Inerrancy (CSBI), should we insist upon it and potentially cause him to stumble? Must he be condemned and forced to publicly retract, change denomination or deconvert?
Riverking, I think there are many believers in Jesus that have not held to inerrancy, but do hold to the central biblical teachings of the deity of Christ, the atonement, salvation by grace through faith, etc. C. S. Lewis is one of many examples. I do believe that the person who believes the Bible is has errors is certainly going to have a tough time figuring out what’s true and what’s not! It may not matter much whether someone beleives in a small historical error, but eventually the tendency will be to not beleive any passage that teaches what it isn’t currently cool to beleive or what we simply don’t want to beleive. And that point, we, as influenced by our culture, become our own ultimate authorities. We will therefore never believe in the Bible anything that goes against the grain of popular current thinking. So, no miracles, no deity of Christ, no redemption, no second coming or new earth. But to your point, a formula such as CSBI doesn’t convey biblical authority, even though it may help to articulate it and in the cases of some instituions, help preserve it.
Randy, the fact that the Bible becomes tricky to navigate if you do not believe in inerrancy, in that you can no longer be immediately sure what to believe, is not proof of inerrancy. It would be more convenient, but that has no bearing on whether it is actually a true claim.
As a fellow deconverted Christian who comes from the Bible Belt of Arkansas where I was in Bible Drill by age 5 and doing national competitions…the works….let me share my perspective in a couple posts Randy.
You state “If someone does not adhere to inerrancy it will be tough to establish truth, and eventually the tendency will be to not believe any passage that teaches what it isn’t currently cool to believe. or what we simply don’t want to believe.” – holding rigid views of inerrancy make it hard to establish truth and serves no purpose towards finding Truth. As far as the cultural shifts and passage choosing – that has already progressively happened over 2000 years in various ways. One of the most dominant positions of faith, protestant faith, was not even organized and existent until rather recent in historical perspective. The Rapture doctrine. Different denominations within Protestant faith spurring up each century, adopting cultural trends with groups/sects coming and going and shifting attitudes in various arenas as it all unfolds. Even just the basic fact that archaeological finds have shifted views on important theologies. Inerrancy typically gets in the way of new information.
If we want to attempt to utilize the Holy Spirit as the easy insert. We have more issues. Is the Holy Spirit feeding individualized truths that are causing these varying belief systems over time, in which inerrancy is wrong? Which to your CS Lewis example, my question would be how far can an interpretation deviate and still be regarded as a “spiritual truth”. Or is the Holy Spirit essentially only relaying truths to the few of us who either are “predestined” or just “opened our hearts” properly to receive such truths? – It’s a messy angle no matter how you approach.
I have encountered a lot of inerrancy believing christians who held some pretty drastically differences in theology. So I think it is hard to state that holding an inerrant view of the Bible gives insight and in the same statement even consider that anything outside of inerrancy would yield a viable theology. I do not think there is a way to compromise that and hold systematic integrity.
Thanks for the post Randy.
(Randy),
First, thanks for being willing to be a guest blogger!
Two questions & a comment:
When you write “I do believe that the person who believes the Bible is has errors is certainly going to have a tough time figuring out what’s true and what’s not!” how are you avoiding being guilty of begging the question?
Related, it’s a fact, barring another DSS-like discovery that unearths first edition Bible manuscripts, that God did not preserve an inerrant Bible for us. It also a fact that the copies that actually do exist are saturated with variants (albeit, in the main, inconsequential ones). So how is arguing for inerrancy meaningful when, as things stand, we don’t actually possess an inerrant Bible?
I seems to me that it’s time for evangelicals like us to admit that the Bible doesn’t behave in an inerrant manner and to argue that it does is a category error. Paraphrasing Rob Bell, to argue for Biblical inerrancy is tantamount to arguing that a sunset is inerrant–again, it’s a category error–and an idol of special pleading we evangelicals would never accept from those making similar arguments in other religions.
Randy,
In a reply to someone during this present exchange Bart wrote, “ There actually is nothing about non-fundamentalist Christianity that stands at odds with science. Of course if you believe in creation, and Adam and Eve, and … such things, yes, there’s a problem. But if you look on the bible as a human book written by fallible humans who just didn’t understand how the world works, but who did have deep insights into spiritual reality — then there in theory should not be much of a problem.”
Please may I ask where you stand in relation to what he says about the Bible being ‘a human book written by fallible humans …’? Do you believe in Adam and Eve in the way that he implies that this is at odds with science?
Hi Randy,
I enjoyed reading your replies to the questions–while I do not share your beliefs I thought you were courteous and reasonable in most of what you wrote back. I wonder though, when you acknowledged your errors and said you would contact your publishers, will you also communicate to your adherents those errors in a revised review of Bart’s book? Seems like the right thing to do.
Hi Randy, one more please…
Truly thank you for taking the time to engage!
I think I might have been unclear…
Your article about Bart paints the picture of pied-pipers leading people astray. I am asking whether or not you have considered whether the strong proponents of Inerrancy are chasing away sincere, honest, truth-seekers? There will always be believers and non-believers choosing to interpret the Bible in all kinds of ways. In my opinion, Inerrancy does and will not stop that. However, Inerrancy will cause some sincere, honest and intelligent truth-seekers to stumble. I would rather have the chance to dialogue with the seeker rather than tell him Inerrancy is not to be questioned. Thoughts?
For Bart and Randy
Whenever I talk about the Bible my problem is in the meaning of individual words. For example “truth”!
If I am not mistaken, we have a general and personal truth and this should definitely be emphasized – what truth it is.
Here I find in Randy`s answer:
“….. but live forever on the New Earth, where God will come down and forever dwell with his people.”
Forever is one of those words. I think the general truth is that, so to speak, in a few billion of our years, which is not – forever, the Sun will go out and the Earth and everything on it will be dead.
If Randy accepts the foregoing as a general truth, I am interested in giving us his explanation of the quote, because I believe he does not know how God will solve this problem?
Here’s a question I haven’t heard answered with logic and rationality. Wouldn’t we have at least one reference or one letter by a Christian prior to 70 AD, that mentions the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem. You’d think that would be incredibly significant to any Jew or Gentile Christian And it’s not mentioned. That is the single greatest evidence that the Gospels and the NT were written before 70AD. All of it.
We only have one Christian author from before 70 (Paul). But of course no one would mention that the temple had been destroyed before it was destroyed. You may want to explore the arguments that have convinced virtually every critical scholar on the planet that many of the books were written after 70. The fact they all think so doesn’t mean it’s right, of course; but it does mean you should look at the evidence before deciding it isn’t convincing. (Just as in science: lots of counter-intuitive stuff out there; but quantum physicists adhere to it because they know the evidence.
I don’t think you’re following me. If the letters or Gospels were written after the 70AD, you can almost be certain, that the writers would’ve mentioned the fall of Jerusalem. Quite a monumental event. They would’ve most likely related it to God’s judgement for rejecting Christ. I know years later, many believed it was a result of killing James. The fact that there’s no mention of it, makes it arguable that everything was written prior to 70AD. I personally believe you mark any time after all the events of Acts, when Theophilus was around until the fall of Jerusalem as a timeframe. Has anyone tried to find any historical evidence of a man named Theophilus from the 1st century?
I am following you. I disagree with you. Take all the writings of the apostolic fathers, produced by Christians in the second century. How often do they mention the destruction of the temple? The fact that something really important happened earlier does not mean someone has to mention it. I’ve written thousands of posts on the blog, but how often have I mentioned the fall of the Berlin Wall or the destruction of the World Trade Center? I certainly would not have mentioned these things if I were writing a historical account of things that happened *earlier*!! (as is true of the Gospels; they aren’t describing the 70s but the 20s;)
I can understand why the Gospels wouldn’t mention the destruction of the temple, if their purpose was to detail the life, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. You’d think there would be at least one reference by the Apostles, the temple was the center of Judaism and the culture. I am extremely
surprised that the writer of Hebrews wouldn’t mention it. Like hey, “why go back to Judaism, there’s no more temple, there’s no ability to offer sacrifices, Christ was the sacrificial lamb, the temple is gone”. That would seem likely had it been written after 70AD. I don’t think your comparisons are good, this is not the blog and the World Trade Center. This is religious texts during a time when the most central place of the Jewish religion was destroyed. Like the Babylonian exile. Perhaps they didn’t want to agitate the Romans by circulating material related to it, I don’t know.
Paul spent much of his adult life at the temple prior to the Damascus road experience. No way he doesn’t mention it, had he been alive and circulating letters across the empire .
It’s always good to read a critique of Ehrman here! I’m a fan, but writings driven by a conviction either for or against evangelical Christianity always carry the risk of oversimplification. Reading the book with this correspondence in mind should be great! My initial thoughts from reading many of the Biblical texts are that their views of the afterlife are probably varied and complex. It’s a shame that many texts briefly mention Sheol without elaborating much. The audience the authors were writing for probably didn’t require such an explanation.
Re: Mr. Alcorn’s summation of Bart Ehrman. Either gentleman can comment:
-Unsure Timothy 4:3-4 correlates, esp. with reference to “former insiders.” –Job seeing God again in the afterlife: Are you debating whether Job will see God or where he sees God? Since the umbrella topic is heaven, is it not earth where God shall bring his kingdom after resurrection the dead? I’ve heard this repeated many times from Dr. Ehrman when he explains the Judaic view. Christian belief is that heaven is apart from earth.
-Why should reading a plethora of evangelical books on heaven be required to state one’s case concerning historical accounts of where the concepts of heaven and hell come from? Unless they were written by people that were resurrected they probably have little to offer.
-Writing about belief or disbelief is not encouraging anything (deconversion); it’s simply stating a case. Many of our personal journeys brought us illumination long before discovering there was an Ehrman. He need to knock on doors if we seek the truth.
-Historians may inadvertently “deconvert.” That’s a sign of a theist’s own doubts not Ehrman’s might.
-A fair critique is one thing. Vilifying another in order to sustain your own position isn’t quite justifiable.
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I’m so thankful for all the modern day “deconversion” disciples undermining the dishonest message of the church. The organized church hides so much information that is detrimental to their message from the lay person and people like Bart shine the light on it. Keep it up Bart.
Remark to Randy Alcorn: Currently, I have no particular question; but, I will say that I was appalled by your remark, “Ehrman is a major instrument in countless readers’ downward spiritual trajectory.”
“Downward”? That is quite a judgment call as if you know what is right and wrong or up and down for others spiritually!
My interpretation of the teachings of Jesus indicate that the core is to treat others as you would be treated. Living with THAT, sir, is what I consider “upward” spirituality.
Methinks the Randy doth protest too much.
A harsh review indeed.
Randy,
I was born into a devout Islamic family. I have been taught since I drew breath the ways of Islam. I love Allah with my entire being. I must reject Christianity and Jesus (PBOH) because my faith permits only Allah as my God. Am I going to burn in Hell forever? Please answer with “yes” or “no”. Thank you.
Randy is not longer on the blog. My guess is that he would answer “probably so.” I, on the other hand, would answer “definitely not”
Bart, that has always been a problem I wrestled with. As a Catholic and then a Baptist Christian. The notion that one has to believe a certain way, or face eternal torture. Even if believing that certain way was diametrically opposed to what one was indoctrinated since birth. I no longer wrestle or even consider this problem anymore. And I made that decision long before I read a word from Bart Ehrman.