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The Eyes of God and Man: Hubble vs. James Webb Telescope and The 2024 Isaac Asimov Memorial Debate (This Proves God!)
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Steefen
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August 22, 2024 - 2:50 pm

Here’s the source of the quote:
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Stephen
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August 22, 2024 - 3:35 pm

There is an aspect of the idea of Fine Tuning I’ve never understood. Perhaps someone here can explain it.

By definition God created not just life, but the conditions under which life arose. God could therefore have created life under any conditions he chose.

So whence cometh Fine Tuning? God operates under constraints? I thought God was all powerful?

A network of ranges and thresholds seems indicative of a naturalistic universe. For example, if there is too much radiation, life is destroyed. Not enough, life cannot develop in the first place.

I thought Almighty God could make anything do anything. No?

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Porphyry

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August 22, 2024 - 4:11 pm

I don’t think the fine tuning argument starts from the presumption of an omnipotent God. It start with a scientific understanding of the world, and according to our best understanding of the world, life wouldn’t be possible unless certain constants had pretty precise, apparently arbitrary values.

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Robert
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August 22, 2024 - 4:11 pm
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Porphyry

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August 22, 2024 - 7:20 pm

I’d thought of that response. The problem is that classically it is thought that God can do all that does not entail a logical contradiction; that is a high bar and it isn’t clear to me that the argument could meet it.

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Robert
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August 22, 2024 - 7:40 pm
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Porphyry

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August 22, 2024 - 8:12 pm

I see. I didn’t appreciate how restrictive “almighty” was.

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DavidFord

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August 22, 2024 - 8:49 pm

“By definition God created not just life, but the conditions under which life arose”
What were those “conditions”?
(God spoke, and life appeared?)

The physics we know can’t give rise to biological life.

“God could therefore have created life under any conditions he chose”
Could God have created biological life in an exceedingly-hot universe 500 years after the big bang?

“So whence cometh Fine Tuning?”
Do you think there is “Fine Tuning”?

“God operates under constraints?”
Yes.
God operates under those constraints that he puts himself under.

“I thought God was all powerful?”
Depending on what the desired outcome is, not all of that power is made use of.

“A network of ranges and thresholds seems indicative of a naturalistic universe.
For example, if there is too much radiation, life is destroyed.
Not enough, life cannot develop in the first place”
If after the big bang the universe expanded too _quickly_,
then matter wouldn’t coalesce together to form suns, and later planets.

If after the big bang the universe expanded too _slowly_,
then the universe would have shortly ended in a big crunch, with no time for the formation of suns, and later planets.

“I thought Almighty God could make anything do anything”
God can’t make a square circle.
‘Square circle’ is nonsensical.
Also, just because someone _can_ do something, that doesn’t mean that it’s wise to do that thing.

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DavidFord

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August 22, 2024 - 8:50 pm

“I didn’t appreciate how restrictive ‘almighty’ was”
What in your view would have been a better approach?

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DavidFord

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August 22, 2024 - 9:23 pm

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“we are not here to observe the first few seconds of the Universe since the formation of life was impossible at those epochs”
We _have_ observed the universe “300 to 500 million years after the Big Bang.”

April 6, 2023
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Astronomers using the James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) have just discovered the four most distant galaxies ever seen, located a little over 13 billion light-years from Earth.
This means astronomers are seeing what galaxies looked like only 300 to 500 million years after the Big Bang, in the infancy of our now almost 14 billion-year-old universe, according to two new studies published April 4 in the journal Nature Astronomy.

“The anthropic principle does demonstrate that all of our cosmological models are constructed by augmenting the results of observations by a philosophical principle”
Which “principle” is what?

“the Copernican principle (now known as the cosmological principle) states that the portion of the Universe we observe is not special or privileged”
On the contrary, the planet we live on, which allows for technologically-advanced human life to thrive on it, is _very_ special.

Guillermo Gonzalez and Jay Richards, _The Privileged Planet: How Our Place in the Cosmos Is Designed for Discovery_ (2024)

Hugh Ross, _The Creator and the Cosmos: How the Latest Scientific Discoveries Reveal God_ (2018)

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Stephen
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August 22, 2024 - 11:29 pm

Porphyry, I wasn’t arguing against the idea of Fine Tuning which as I wrote seems perfectly consistent with a naturalistic view. I was pointing out the incongruity of using it as an argument for the existence of God. It would be hard to find a current Christian apologist who doesn’t whip it out at some point.

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Porphyry

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August 23, 2024 - 8:00 am

Let me dig into this for a moment, because I feel like I’m not understanding you, Stephen.

First, “A network of ranges and thresholds seems indicative of a naturalistic universe.”

I don’t understand what you mean by that. My understanding of the fine tuning argument goes something like this: There are physical constants whose values are, so far as we can tell, arbitrary. For example the relative strength of the fundamental forces (gravity, strong nuclear, weak nuclear, electromagnetism): The constants that define the strength of these forces seems to be arbitrary; There is no reason, so far as we can tell, that they must have the values they have, no mathematical problems arise if we pretend they have other values and run the numbers. We can’t derive them mathematically; we can only measure them. But if they were different, even only slightly different, the universe would be a very very different place. For example, even slight changes to any of them would prevent the formation of atoms. So the problem for naturalism is that it just seems insanely lucky that these arbitrary values that are built into the very fabric of the physical world just happen to be the very precise values that are necessary for any sort of life we can conceive of to develop. This isn’t just a Christian apologetic point, it is a problem that bothers philosophical naturalists; I mean, the fine tuning argument takes its foundation from the fine tuning problem, which had previously been articulated by physicists. I (obviously) don’t think it is a conclusive argument–and as a theist, I thought it was quite weak–but it is the sort of thing that just bugs me. How did we get so insanely lucky?

Second: “God created not just life, but the conditions under which life arose. God could therefore have created life under any conditions he chose.”

I’m not entirely sure that follows, and I’m not sure it undermines the argument. Or perhaps I just don’t understand what you mean by it. Following on what Robert mentioned, it seems like this depends on several things: under what conditions is life possible? how strong a conception of divine omnipotence do you accept?

Is life possible in a universe where atoms can’t form? Maybe, I don’t know, but it certainly wouldn’t be anything like the sort of life we know. Could an omnipotent God have created another form of life that operates in a fundamentally different way–without using atoms?

At any rate, I don’t see why that would damage the argument. If you start with an omnipotent God, the fine tuning problem just isn’t a problem. But if you start with an omnipotent God, then you don’t need an argument for the existence of God. I think that is the point: The fine tuning argument is trying to highlight a deficiency in the naturalistic world view.

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DavidFord

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August 23, 2024 - 9:19 am

Is the universe fine-tuned for intelligent life?
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… _A Fortunate Universe: Life in a Finely Tuned Cosmos_

… is arguably the best treatment of the topic since the monumental _Anthropic Cosmological Principle_

by Barrow and Tipler.

Cosmic coincidences
For several decades, researchers have puzzled over deeply perplexing indications, many of them highly mathematical in nature, that the universe seems inexplicably well-tuned to facilitate the evolution of complex molecular structures and sentient creatures.
Some of these “cosmic coincidences” include the following (these and numerous others are presented and discussed in detail by Lewis and Barnes):

8. _The low-entropy state of the universe_.
The overall entropy (disorder) of the universe is, in the words of Lewis and Barnes, “freakishly lower than life requires.”
After all, life requires, at most, a galaxy of highly ordered matter to create chemistry and life on a single planet.
Physicist Roger Penrose has calculated (see
, pg. 341-344) the odds that the entire universe is as orderly as our galactic neighborhood to be one in 10^(10^123), a number whose decimal representation has vastly more zeroes than the number of fundamental particles in the observable universe.
Extrapolating back to the big bang only deepens this puzzle.

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Steefen
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August 23, 2024 - 1:46 pm

I remember why I was not impressed by the Anthropic Principle.

Non-bird dinosaurs lived between 245 and 66 million years ago.
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Modern human beings are only about 160,000 years old.

God was entertained by life on earth for at least 100 million years without modern human beings in less than 1 million years, he tried to drown us all.

Does Russia have a flood myth?
Maybe the Watchers is only a myth.
Did God try to destroy Egypt by flood? No.
God tried to destroy Mesopotamia by flood.
Did God try to destroy the geography of Russia in ancient times?
Was all of the geography of the Western United States flooded, too? Who was our Noah?

Back to the Watchers, the Bible does NOT account for all advanced human civilizations.

Prehistoric megalithic complex in Karelia, Russia – Vottovaara Mountain

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Steefen
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August 23, 2024 - 1:50 pm

So, no David, we do not need books pasted about the Anthropic principle, a failed hypothesis.

I will say there are interesting facts in it but the goal was not God and Man (David Bowie); You’re so vain, you thought I made this universe ’bout you. You’re so vain. You’re so vain. You thought I made the cosmos about you, don’t you, don’t you (Carly Simon).
.

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Steefen
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August 23, 2024 - 1:57 pm

Where were the Watchers, Annunaki, Pleiadians, 200 million years ago.
I guess they didn’t want to come here when T-Rex was around (66 to 68 million years ago).

And God? created the earth, then he created dinosaurs and later he created T-Rex, and then God struck the earth and the dinosaurs and T-Rex all died. After millions of years, God had a taste for human beings but they were too loud (Eridu Genesis) or too sinful (Hebrew Genesis) so he tried to drown them all–instead of send another comet to whack the earth.

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Stephen
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August 23, 2024 - 2:01 pm

Where were the Watchers, Annunaki, Pleiadians, 200 million years ago.

The more important question is, where are they now?

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Steefen
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August 23, 2024 - 2:02 pm

We are trying to get God straight and the history of life. Your question does not answer a question about Earth’s past.

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Steefen
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August 23, 2024 - 2:04 pm

I bet Jesus was bored out of his mind for millions of years of dinosaurs.

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Stephen
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August 23, 2024 - 2:28 pm

Porphyry, I signed on prepared to follow up on a couple posts of mine and bandy about a bit with David but you’ve raised some questions which will require me to formulate my thoughts before I respond. Sadist!

I’ll get back to you.

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