Hey Steefen what you need is Ted Lewis’ book on the idea of God in ancient Israel. This book is a tome, meaning if you drop it on your foot it will break your toes. One thousand pages and nice looong discussions about Yahweh and El. This book was published in 2020 and is a kind of summa for Lewis and his work. He taught up at Johns Hopkins for years and is regarded as an expert. This book will doubtless find its function as a school text but if you’re interested like me in a deeep dive well worth the expense.
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My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?
And who is Jesus’ God?
Our Father who art in heaven.
Period. Robert.
Even without using Mark 15: 34, Jesus’ theological concept is God as Father.
“Father, forgive them, for they don’t know what they are doing.”
“Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!”
Robert, the Hebrew Bible does not emphasize and make as strong an impression, while questioning what Father gives his children snakes, the Father notion as much as Jesus did. Period.
Mark 14:36
He said,
“Abba, Father, all things are possible for you. Take this cup away from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”
Matthew 26:39
Going a little farther, He fell facedown and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me. Yet not as I will, but as You will.”
Matthew 26:42
A second time He went away and prayed, “My Father, if this cup cannot pass unless I drink it, may Your will be done.”
Galatians 4:6
And because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”
Romans 8:15,16
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father…
Steefen:
You wrote a book, How Jesus became God.
Yahweh became the the monotheistic God of Temple Judaism.
Through Moses, Yahweh introduced himself to the sons of Israel.
Yahweh commanded the Hebrews to be henotheistic.
King Josiah forbade the worship of any god but Yahweh.
The emblems of the worship of Baal and “the host of heaven” were removed from the Jerusalem Temple.
Yahweh was not the father of the Canaanite pantheon, El was.
Jesus broke with Josiah: Jesus broke with the evolution of God in Judaism.
We cannot say Jesus taught people to see the father nature of Yahweh, especially after Luke 11:11-13.
How Jesus became God?
1) He taught his Heavenly Father was God.
2) He taught he was one with God, his Heavenly Father.
I am disappointed you did not make the distinction between Yahweh and the Father by whom Jesus became God.
The New Testament only addresses the distinction slightly:
The Pharisees and the Temple establishment did not see God as El and they did not see Yahweh as a beneficent father.
If Yahweh came through as a responsible, fair, and protective father-god,
Jewish Apocalypticism would have one less reason to develop.
Jesus taught people to pray to his Heavenly Father.
The religious authorities knew Jesus taught the Our Father prayer and was teaching God as Father; yet, they asked, Are you the son of the Blessed One?
With me thinking this through…
Jesus answered: I am (the son of the Blessed One) and whoever recites the Our Father Prayer are children of the Blessed One, even you.
AND, you will see the Son of Man (Enoch, not me) sitting at the right hand of Power.
Are you the Messiah?
I am
until I am killed and am replaced not by another Jewish messiah but until I am replaced by Gentiles according to the prophetic Parable of the Wicked Tenants revealed to me.
So, the Tribulation will still take place in Jerusalem.
Judgement will not be Jewish Apocalyptic terms but in Gentile terms–sheep, did you support the Jewish Revolt (no) and goats, did you support the Jewish Revolt (yes).
And, the glorious kingdom of God will be the kingdom of the the Gentiles, the Roman empire.
Bart D. Ehrman:
Read my book more carefully and you’ll see that I make very clear distinctions.
Steefen:
How Jesus Became God – UCC Parts 1 through 3 of 3 on your YouTube channel should provide that.
I look forward to your treatment.
Dr. Doolittle:
It may have been just a moment of conflation of
textual criticism and higher criticism for the sake of historical accuracy
that evoked such disappointment in our brother.
Just for the sake of clarification:
“Textual criticism, properly speaking, is an ancillary academic discipline designed to lay the foundations for the so-called higher criticism, which deals with questions of authenticity and attribution, of interpretation, and of literary and historical evaluation.”
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A peculiar aspect of Enochic Judaism is:
the concept of “End of Days,” the time of final judgment
John 11:23
King James Bible
Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
John 11:24
King James Bible
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
= = =
Did Jesus call himself God? No.
Did Jesus think of himself as God? No.
John 8:58
King James Bible
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
John 17: 5
King James Bible
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
John 20:27-28
Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my
God.
! ! ! None of these verses were in the Synoptic Gospels. ! ! !
John has put words on Jesus’ lips.
32:00 mark
God and angels vs Devil and demons is an apocalyptic thought
Bart says this is the dualism that came out of Apocalyptic Thought
So this feeds into the dualism of This World vs The World to Come.
Pessimism but God is going to vindicate and redeem.
The Son of Man is one option.
The Messiah is another option.
The Book of Job and Ecclesiastes did not think there would be resurrection.
Apocalypticism said you can’t be rich and evil and get away with it. There will be VINDICATION.
Jesus: You may betray me to the Romans but there will be Justice for what you’re doing.
pick up at 41:53
So far we do not know if the Qumran Community agreed with a father notion of God or with a Yahwistic notion of God.
Because God is a Good Father, there will be VINDICATION.
The Israelites ALONE worshiped Yahweh, not a global god, not a universal god.
The Shashu of Yahweh – the Shashu were Semitic nomads
Yahweh, therefore, was worshiped by another people: the Israelites AND the Shashu.
The Shashu were NOT Hebrew and the Habiru/Hapiru/Apiru were Canaanites.
Yahweh moves further back into history as a desert god.
The people of Moab ALSO worshiped Yahweh.
Use Adonai (lord) instead of Yahweh. Adonai is plural: lord of all lords. Elohim is plural.
Yahweh would send a messiah.
Pick up at 12:13 / 53:42
Not knowing in the gospels that Jesus was using God the Father and not Yahweh
is to not know an important reason for the clash Jesus had with Pharisees and the Sanhedrin.
Jesus could not have sold his theological interpretation or
1) a Yahweh Prayer replacing the Our Father Prayer or
2) Son of the Father vs Son of Yahweh.
Perhaps Jesus could be seen as a messiah sent by a loving father
but not
a messiah sent by Yahweh.
The theological difference partially explains rejecting Jesus as messiah and as son of Yahweh.
Bart Ehrman:
You cannot trust the Son of Man verses where Jesus identifies himself as the Son of Man.
Steefen:
So far, then, Enoch is the Son of Man, as I put forward.
Jesus prepared us for Enoch.
Ehrman:
The Messiah was NOT god on earth. Jews did not think that.
The Messiah was a king.
In the video, Ehrman totally ignores King Herod the Great.
Jesus was killed for saying he was the king of the Jews.
Jesus didn’t go around saying he was king of the Jews.
But he told the disciples they will have roles in the future kingdom.
Judas confessed this for 30 pieces of silver.
Jesus was crucified not because He went around saying he was the king of the Jews
but because he had a staffing plan for his kingdom.
Jesus didn’t see himself as the crucified messiah.
Dr. Ehrman,
You say Jesus did not view himself as the crucified messiah.
Does that mean you think the Parable of the Wicked Tenants which said the son of the vineyard landowner would be killed was not an authentic saying of Jesus? Jesus did not believe the God-inspired parable of prophecy?
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
A better wording of the above is awaiting approval at
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Q&A for Part 1
Only in the gospel of John is it said Jesus’ kingdom is not of this world and you have to be born again to get to it.
Bart says that is John’s teaching, not the historical Jesus.
= = =
What is literary, what is Mark trying to convey vs what is historical.
According to Gospel of Mark, nobody knows Jesus is the Messiah until Peter says it.
Pick up at 1:07:25 / 1:40:13
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