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Was Jesus an Atheist with Respect to the Torah? Am I an Atheist with Respect to the Torah. Is there Syncretism in the God of Jesus?
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Steefen
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July 21, 2024 - 5:42 pm

Of course a warrior god would usurp or attempt to usurp the position of the head of a pantheon of gods.

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Steefen
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July 21, 2024 - 6:01 pm

Before Canaan, the Sumer civilization worshiped not a single God, but a pantheon of deities known as Anunnaki, those who from Heaven came to Earth 450,000 years ago.

Abraham was from Sumer.

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Steefen
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July 21, 2024 - 6:12 pm

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Steefen
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July 21, 2024 - 6:29 pm

Jesus distanced himself from Yahweh.

Not just with what father gives his children snakes but in John, Chapter 8.

See II Kings 17.

You can’t trust Yahweh to be left alone with humans–he will kill them.

Jesus didn’t teach Yahweh-ism. So, no, Jesus did not worship Yahweh and Jesus was not a Jewish purist.

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Steefen
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July 21, 2024 - 6:46 pm

So, what was the term Josephus used?
Innovator.
Jesus was an innovator and the Pharisees and members of the establishment of the Temple and Temple Judaism didn’t like it.
Then Jesus was going to be a leader of his reform movement and his disciples would judge the tribes of Israel.
Jesus sinned against Temple Judaism.

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Steefen
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July 22, 2024 - 12:08 pm

But a sole God has to go back beyond the beginning of Judah, beyond the beginning of Canaan.
Are there similarities between the Canaanite pantheon and anyone else?

Yes, with the Hebrew God coming from the El pantheon and the Hebrew Bible having a great flood. Look where else there was a great flood.

Enlil tried to exterminate humans by flood.
And Enki, god of knowledge, sciences, wisdom, and hidden metals, possessed a unique combination of biological and mineralogical expertise. Yahweh declared ownership over gold and silver, while promising to grant treasures from dark and secret places.

The deluge is a combining of Mesopotamian and biblical narratives.
In the Mesopotamian accounts, Enki takes measures to warn Ziusudra (last king of Sumer before the flood) (the Sumerian Noah) about the impending catastrophe. Enki disagreed with the decree of the gods to destroy humankind by flood.
Enki tells Ziusudra him to build an ark and to save animal life.

Yahweh saved Noah by ark instructions
Enki saved Ziusudra by ark instructions

= = =

Abraham was in Mesopotamia.
Before him was Noah.
Noah was in Mesopotamia.
Noah was born 2948 BCE and died 1998 BCE.
The biblical flood must have happened between those dates.

The great Ur flood is dated to approximately 3500 BCE.
“The Flood: Mesopotamian Archaeological Evidence” / National Center for Science Education

So the original flood account involved Enki and Ziusudra.
There weren’t two great floods and two arks.

Rename Ziusudra to Noah.
Change Enki to the Hebrew God.

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Steefen
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July 22, 2024 - 12:32 pm

Jesus distanced himself from Yahweh.

Not just with what father gives his children snakes but in John, Chapter 8.

What happened in John, Chapter 8?

Jesus distinguishes himself from the children of Abraham and the people of Yahweh.
Jesus is from God but those who have trouble hearing him/understanding him/listening to him do not belong to God.
They said Jesus was a Samaritan and was demon-possessed.

8:52
“Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death.

8:54
Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.

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Robert
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July 22, 2024 - 12:53 pm
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Stephen
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July 22, 2024 - 2:04 pm

So, what was the term Josephus used?
Innovator.
Jesus was an innovator and the Pharisees and members of the establishment of the Temple and Temple Judaism didn’t like it.
Then Jesus was going to be a leader of his reform movement and his disciples would judge the tribes of Israel.
Jesus sinned against Temple Judaism.

Given what we know about Second Temple Judaism and Jewish apocalypticism, I think if we could go back we would see that the Jesus movement was not at all out of the mainstream of Jewish religious practice. The real argument was between the Temple culture and the movements that arose in opposition to it. These protestants included people who thought they could do the Temple thing better if they were in charge, i.e., reformers, and folks who thought the Temple system should be overthrown altogether. Jesus had competitors for sure, but he was hardly unique. He just had better writers.

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Steefen
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July 22, 2024 - 7:26 pm

I saw that Robert.

Jesus must be talking about El.

The condensing of El into Yahweh left Jesus focusing on the Father while normative Judaism taught Yahweh before the condensing.

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Steefen
7786 Posts
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July 22, 2024 - 7:35 pm

Stephen, did the Qumran community see God as Father?
Jesus deconstructed God, pushed the original Yahweh to the side, and innovated worshiping a Father god instead of a lesser warrior god.

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Steefen
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July 22, 2024 - 7:38 pm

See II Kings 17.

You can’t trust Yahweh to be left alone with humans–he will kill them.

Jesus didn’t teach Yahweh-ism. So, no, Jesus did not worship Yahweh and Jesus was not a Jewish purist.

II King 17: 20
the LORD rejected all the people of Israel;

he afflicted them and gave them into the hands of plunderers, until he thrust them from his presence.

Steefen
Yep, Jesus said, this warrior nut cannot be the Father who sent me: he has no parenting skills. A parent has to be more understanding, way more understanding with children.

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Robert
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July 25, 2024 - 8:33 pm
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Steefen
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July 25, 2024 - 9:21 pm

The Roman Empire did not vote on Jesus’ ideas about the Kingdom of Heaven. It was an innovation to the Roman Empire.
The Roman Empire gave no permission to the Herod governors to go forward with Jesus’ kingdom–king of the Jews.

It wasn’t an innovation? What was it? The status quo?

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Robert
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July 25, 2024 - 9:42 pm
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Steefen
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July 26, 2024 - 8:08 pm

Reply #84
Jesus distanced himself from Yahweh.

Not just with what father gives his children snakes but in John, Chapter 8.

See II Kings 17.

You can’t trust Yahweh to be left alone with humans–he will kill them.

Jesus didn’t teach Yahweh-ism. So, no, Jesus did not worship Yahweh and Jesus was not a Jewish purist.

Reply #85
So, what was the term Josephus used?
Innovator.
Jesus was an innovator and the Pharisees and members of the establishment of the Temple and Temple Judaism didn’t like it.
Then Jesus was going to be a leader of his reform movement and his disciples would judge the tribes of Israel.
Jesus sinned against Temple Judaism.

Robert:
Your statement was that Josephus called Jesus an innovator.

Steefen:
My statement was not Josephus called Jesus an innovator. My statement was that Josephus noticed innovation going on and Jesus’ activities were not status quo, they were different, they were innovations. For years, there were money changers at the Temple. Jesus was 30 maybe 33 years of age. What did he do from age 12 to 29 about the money changers?

I did NOT say The Testimonium Flavianum called Jesus an innovator. I did not say Josephus said a brother of Jesus, that is called the Christ–and innovator was stuck in there somehow.

Jonathan Klawans
Josephus accepts the authority of scripture and tradition, but opposes changes imposed by illegitimate leaders or that were put in place without the people’s consent.
Abstract of Chapter 4: Torah, Tradition, and Innovation from Josephus and the Theologies of Ancient Judaism by Jonathan Klawans
** you do not have permission to see this link **

Steefen
Jesus was an illegitimate leader where illegitimate means not authorized by the law, not in accordance with accepted standards or rules.

Jesus did not present his ideas to the Jewish establishment so it could push it up through imperial procedure. The governors (sons of Herod the Great) Philip, Herod Antipas, Herod Archelaus (deposed in the 10th year of his own reign and replaced by Coponius) nor any of their successors were presented with Jesus’ innovation–the Kingdom of God with 12 judges (his own disciples).

The Roman Empire did not vote on Jesus’ ideas about the Kingdom of Heaven. It was an innovation to the Roman Empire.
The Roman Empire gave no permission to the Herod governors to go forward with Jesus’ kingdom–king of the Jews.

It wasn’t an innovation? What was it? The status quo?

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Robert
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July 26, 2024 - 8:20 pm
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Steefen
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July 26, 2024 - 9:57 pm

Jesus was innovating.
Josephus singled out innovators in his writing.

Preface of Wars of the Jews
Those Jews also who were for innovations, then arose when the times were disturbed

Chapter 10
and had it by inheritance from his father to be fond of innovations and seditions,

Chapter 11
Thus was he preserved again by Antipater, who dissuaded Marcus, the then president of Syria, from his resolution of killing Malichus, on account of his attempts for innovation.

etc.

** you do not have permission to see this link **

AS I said, you cannot read Josephus without noticing he was not impressed with innovators.
Jesus was not a status quo figure. He wanted change/innovation.

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Robert
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July 26, 2024 - 9:59 pm
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Steefen
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July 26, 2024 - 10:54 pm

You points have been addressed. You should be able to answer your question or drop it.

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