I was discussing this thread with someone i TOLD HIM WHAT Bart said. He told me about the second verse below and how Judas’ place as judge of a tribe of Israel, that place of leadership would have to be filled by another.
Psalm 41:9
Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me. This verse is quoted in John 13:18.
Psalm 109: 8
May his days be few; may another take his place of leadership.
Video: From Anunnaki to the Biblical Yahweh, Tracing the path to the only god:
The Israelites in Canaan sought to distinguish themselves from their neighbors.
In a bid to consolidate political and military strength, they elevated Yahweh ABOVE El (the supreme deity) and
claimed him as their own. Yahweh’s association with the forge and with imagery of fire, smoke, and smiting, made him a fitting deity of storms and war.
Steefen: The militant wing of the messiah movement (for example, sicarii) then seems to trace back to Yahweh.
Video (cont’d):
His character transformed from a deity of transformation to one of conquest.
Elo, often referred to as the supreme god in the Canaanite pantheon, was a deity of immense stature and reverence.
His influence was widespread, and his name was synonymous with divinity itself. El was the epitome of wisdom, authority, and fatherhood, often depicted as an elderly figure with a flowing beard, seated on a throne. His realm was that of justice, KINDNESS, and compassion, and he was often invoked for blessings of fertility and prosperity.
Yahweh, on the other hand, emerged from a more obscure background. Initially a regional deity
associated with the wilderness [the wilderness tradition in Judaism] and stormy weather,
Yahweh’s influence grew over time, eventually permeating the ENTIRE Israelite society.
His rise was not without contention, but his followers were steadfast, and Yahweh’s prominence continued to grow.
[See video for continuation.]
The Israelites remained a henotheistic people through the time of the Judges and throughout the time of the Kingdom of Israel (approximately 1080 to 722 BCE). In 931 BCE, following the death of Solomon, the kingdom split in two and a new political entity, the Kingdom of Judah with its capital at Jerusalem, emerged in the south. The kingdom of Judah, nestled in the southern part of the land of Canaan, was a place where the worhip of Yahweh was deeply entrenched in the fabric of society. Here, Yahweh was not just a deity to be revered; he was the cornerstone of their identity, the divine guarantor of their destiny.
The Judahites saw themselves as the chosen people of Yahweh, and this belief shaped their religious practices, their political decisions, and their cultural expressions. In Judah, Yahweh was perceived as a warrior god, a protector who would defend his people against their enemies.
Steefen:
Well, there you have it. With the rise of empires (not Judah), Yahweh was not invincible. Eventually, Yahweh would need to be vindicated in the theory of Jewish Apocalypticism.
Jesus didn’t see himself as the crucified messiah.
Dr. Ehrman,
You say Jesus did not view himself as the crucified messiah.
Does that mean you think the Parable of the Wicked Tenants which said the son of the vineyard landowner would be killed was not an authentic saying of Jesus? Jesus did not believe the God-inspired parable of prophecy?
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
A better wording of the above is awaiting approval at
** you do not have permission to see this link **..ent-163191
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Bart:
Yes, I don’t think Jesus told the parable of the Wicked Tenants as it is recorded in the Gospels.
Steefen:
There are other places where Jesus knew Holy Week was going to end with him, as messiah, dead.
Mark 8:31
He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again.
Mark 10:33
“Look, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and scribes. They will condemn Him to death and will deliver Him over to the Gentiles,
Matthew 16:21
From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
Luke 9:22
“The Son of Man must suffer many things,” He said. “He must be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.”
There are no cross-references to gospel of John (Why?) except Judas betraying him. Jesus didn’t think he was going to survive that.
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Sure the story goes that he was raised to life but that did not include him freeing Judea from being a client kingdom of Rome in 40 days before Ascension.
The prophets had one message: be loyal to Yahweh. Not to be loyal would bring on dire, divine punishment.
It was a faith that was fiercely monotheistic yet open to the influences of the surrounding cultures.
The worship of Yahweh in Judah was not just about the reverence of a deity it was about the pursuit of a divine vision.
722 BCE – the Assyrians destroyed Israel. Judah withstood the Assyrian military campaigns but had to pay tribute to Assyria.
612 BCE – Assyria fell to the Babylonians (and others). Babylonia claimed Canaan.
598 BCE – Babylonians invaded Judah and sacked Jerusalem, destroying the Temple of Solomon [The Babylonian Captivity]
538 BCE – Cyrus the Great of Persia conquered the Babylonians. He let the Jews who wanted to go back to their homeland to do so.
515-70 BCE – The older scriptures were revised to reflect a monotheistic belief system among the Israelites far earlier than was actually practiced.
Yahweh WAS a god of nomads, wilderness, and storms. How Yahweh became monotheistic god was not a linear process. It was a complex and dynamic evolution, marked by cultural exchange, theological debates, and socio-political changes.
Steefen
How Yahweh became monotheistic god sounds like a human process.
pick up at 30.07
Amos 5:21-24
I hate, I despise your festivals,
and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies.
Even though you offer me your burnt offerings and grain offerings,
I will not accept them,
And the offerings of well-being of your fatted animals
I will not look upon.
Take away from me the noise of your songs;
I will not listen to the melody of your harps.
But let justice roll down like water
and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream.
Isaiah 1:16-17
Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;
remove your evil deeds
from before my eyes;
cease to do evil;
learn to do good;
seek justice;
rescue the oppressed;
defend the orphan;
plead for the widow.
Jeremiah 22:2-5
Hear the word of the Lord, O king of Judah sitting on the throne of David—you, and your servants, and your people who enter these gates. Thus says the Lord: Act with justice and righteousness and deliver from the hand of the oppressor anyone who has been robbed. And do no wrong or violence to the alien, the orphan, and the widow, or shed innocent blood in this place. For if you will indeed obey this word, then through the gates of this house shall enter kings who sit on the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses—they, their servants, and their people. But if you will not heed these words, I swear by myself, says the Lord, that this house shall become a desolation.
As I thought, Robert’s comment and Stephen’s answer is off-topic.
On the topic of consolidating the deities of Ancient Judaism into monotheism and the worship of this construed god, the prophets’ message was to be loyal to Yahweh.
30 minutes–30 minutes into a video about polytheism, henotheism, Yahweh, and monotheism, and here comes a random, off-topic reply.
The thread is about was Jesus in agreement with the consolidation of Ancient Jewish polytheism into Yahweh rather than Yahweh’s father.
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if you will indeed obey this word, then through the gates of this house shall enter kings who sit on the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses—they, their servants, and their people.
But if you will not heed these words, I swear by myself, says the Lord,
this house shall become a desolation.
Note: desolation is not mentioned as a result of larger political structures–Judah under the influence of other empires. Yahweh did not teach Judah what else was going on in the Middle East and neighboring regions. Yahweh’s visionary scope was local because Yahweh is a local god, a tribal god. Even after the consolidation it learned from Assyria, that consolidation did not rise to a global god, a Splar System god, or a god of a local region of the Milky Way galaxy, let alone a galactic god.
The prophets of Judah had one message related to who the god of Judah was: be loyal to Yahweh. Not to be loyal would bring on dire, divine punishment.
Social justice is not a message of higher priority than “Who’s your God?”
Start a different thread about justice messages in the Hebrew Bible.
Continuing with the video
Understanding that Yahweh was never a single god, but was transformed into a single-god throughout history is fundamental.
The gradual shift to Yahweh as the only true God was a human-driven process.
But a sole God has to go back beyond the beginning of Judah, beyond the beginning of Canaan.
Are there similarities between the Canaanite pantheon and anyone else?
Enlil tried to exterminate humans by flood.
And Enki, god of knowledge, sciences, wisdom, and hidden metals, possessed a unique combination of biological and mineralogical expertise. Yahweh declared ownership over gold and silver, while promising to grant treasures from dark and secret places.
The deluge is a conversion of Mesopotamian and biblical narratives.
In the Mesopotamian accounts, Enki takes measures to warn Ziusudra (last king of Sumer before the flood) (the Sumerian Noah) about the impending catastrophe. Enki disagreed with the decree of the gods to destroy humankind by flood.
Enki tells Ziusudra him to build an ark and to save animal life.
Yahweh saved Noah by ark instructions
Enki saved Ziusudra by ark instructions
(but Enki is not Yahweh) The serpent manifestation of Enki, the Nahash tempted Eve.
Yahweh parallels Ninurta.
Warrior gods (such as Yahweh) do not align with the qualities of a divine, pure, infinite, and loving god.
You can’t have a trial of God without Richard Dawkins (and Sam Harris).
Some religions claim to possess the only secure source of salvation towards eternity.
Sam Harris raises questions about the logic of a system of salvation that demands faith in God
DESPITE A LACK OF CONVINCING EVIDENCE, especially considering the decline in miraculous interventions as compared to Biblical times.
(We do have a former U.S. president who survived an assassination attempt.)
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
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