Ralph Ellis, Author of King Jesus and author of Solomon, Falcon of Sheba
You only have the freedom when you have the knowledge.
Matthew chapter 1, verse 23 and Isaiah chapter 7, verse 14
Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy
The New Testament Jesus was not called Immanuel, not even in Matthew after 1:23.
Ralph Ellis, Author of King Jesus and author of Solomon, Falcon of Sheba
Well, I looked for Immanuel in the historical record: Im-Manu-el.
Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy
And you found royalty from Parthia/Edessa who supported the Jewish Revolt.
Ralph Ellis, Author
Josephus is Paul.
Paul of the New Testament does not write about the crucifixion of Jesus
because three men crucified and one survives does not happen until 70 C.E. when Josephus asks General Titus for permission to take them down and give them the best of medical care.
Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy
Paul gets the Last Supper but not the crucifixion.
Derek Lambert / Myth Vision
Who is Paul’s Jesus, then?
Ralph Ellis, Author
A Nazarene.
The Star Prophecy of a great leader coming from the East… what empire was east of the Roman Empire? The answer is the Parthian Empire.
Paul was evangelizing that: a Parthian royal who was a proselyte as Queen Helena, connected to Parthia/Edessa was a Nazarene.
And a brother of Jesus made Paul take a Nazarene vow.
Who asked for the body of Jesus in the gospels: Joseph of Arimathea.
Is this Josephus–Joseph ara Matthias.
Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy
So, Paul took Jesus down from the cross?
Ralph Ellis, Author
This is enough for me, whereas, you, Steve have a list of figures that make up a composite character of historical fiction.
The Edessan princes were the brothers of Izas-Jesus.
Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy
So, you’re saying proselytes with their Nazarene vows eventually became “readers of the Qumran War Scroll”?
James, the brother of our Lord, was somehow connected to proselytes, Queen Helena in her Jerusalem palace, her husband, and her sons, nephews–and grandsons and grand-newphews?
Ralph Ellis, Author
The brothers of Jesus who were 12 disciples gets astrotheological treatment–12 constellations. Look at the 1st century synagogue with the zodiac mosaic on the floor (Zodiac Mosaic of Hammat Tiberias on the western shore of the Sea of, what? The Sea of Galilee.
The 12 disciples of King Arthur and the 12 disciples of Jesus are the same: Arthurian legend is based on Jesus and his disciples.
p/u 38:59 / 1:33.06
JAS said
This has been another installment in our series of interviews involving crazy people. Join us next week when we explore whether or not Peter was actually just a pet rock.
Steefen, Argumentation Specialist
Ad hominem means “against the man,” [against the people] and this type of fallacy is sometimes called name calling or the personal attack fallacy. This type of fallacy occurs when someone attacks the person instead of attacking his or her argument.
JAS, all this time you have probably been thinking: I am an influencer. You are not when using fallacies instead of thinking.
I do not comment for the benefit of non-thinkers.
nonthinking: an act of not thinking or choosing not to think, an absence of thought.
Dawkins’ view that all religious faith is a process of non-thinking will not ring true.
adjective. 2. (of a person) not thinking; unthinking.
It is not an ad hominem error because it is not an ad hominem attack. It is your ideas that are crazy, and I label them as such because they contain barely even the gloss of logic or sound evaluation, and are little more than lots of utterly ridiculous babble disconnected from actual scholarship. The charge that they are crazy is valid, based on what you actually post. No thinking person is likely to be more than mildly entertained by your wild claims. And the fallacies of thinking are mostly yours. It is you who is apparently misled into thinking that you are an influencer. Influencing laughter is presumably not what you intend.
Steefen said
Christian Tradition depicts Jesus with bramble wrapped around his head for a crown of thorns.** you do not have permission to see this link **
Ralph Ellis, author, depicts Jesus with a crown with thorns on his head. (See the cover of his book.)
Matthew insists on a prophecy of a leader coming out of the east. A case can be made that the magi came from the empire east of the Roman empire. That empire would be Parthia. The capital of the Parthian empire was Ctesiphon.
It is important to know the ancient history that tells us about Parthia, Armenia, and Edessa.
It is important to know that royalty left Parthia for Ourania and later Palmyra, Syria.
It is important to know the involvement of these royals, some of whom were proselytes, with the well-being of Judea.
Did they offer famine relief in the 40s C.E.?
Were they involved with the Jewish Revolt?
With them being royals, does wearing “purple” represent them?
Is a crown of thorns representative of their crowns for kings and/or princes?
What was their messianic role in the Jewish Revolt?
With their ties to Parthia, did people think the Jewish Revolt would become a proxy war for Parthia against the Roman Empire?
Ralph Ellis, author
How long was revolution against Rome been budding and brooding with Edessan royalty?
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
So, you are saying it is possible that King Monobazus and Queen Helena sympathized with Judah of Galilee and his tax revolt
because Queen Thea Musa Ourania lost her tax free status because when she moved from Parthia to Ourania, that region was “paying taxes” as a buffer region between the Parthian Empire and the Roman Empire.
Derek/MythVisions
Paul: Greetings to the house of Caesar. (Philippians)
Josephus: Greetings to the house of Caesar.
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
I saw Jesus as a purist for Judaism and Israel.
The Suffering Servant verses in the Hebrew Bible–who is the Suffering Servant? Israel.
The gospels are post-Revolt literature.
The purity of Temple Judaism vs. the Roman Empire. Jesus loses: Rome wins.
If you must, the gospels of a Jesus in the 20s “foretells” the Temple Judaism with its messianism vs. the Roman Empire.
Ralph Ellis, Author of Jesus, King of Edessa
Look! General Vespasian and General Titus needed to end the cause of the revolt.
Moses is going to save us from a super power.
Some “messiah” is going to save us from a super power: underdog defeats “topdog”.
You end the cause of the Jewish Revolt, a religious war, so far as militant, messianic, rebels are concerned by ending the religion.
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
So you have the Messiah end the religion by going up to Leviticus 17:10 and that ends the religion. The Messiah gets God to turn his face away
and without God’s help, God’s shield, the Messiah is crucified, regardless of the fantasy literature that comes after that.
The messiah resurrected as Bar Kokhba. (Bar Kokhba’s fate is not certain, with two alternative traditions in the Babylonian Talmud ascribing the death of Bar Kokhba either to a snake bite or other natural causes during the Roman siege or possibly killed on the orders of the Sanhedrin, as a false Messiah.)
Ralph Ellis, author of Jesus, King of Edessa
Emperor Vespasian needed to also end the Nazarene royalty siding with the messianic rebels and the threat of Parthia, on a larger scale, coming in to help Judea, not only with Roman taxation but with Judean independence from Rome.
So, Emperor Vespasian had Josephus write the Wars of the Jews and deliver a copy of it to Edessa/Parthia: we won this war: let that serve as a warning.
p/u at 49:42 / 1:33:06
Steefen
Paul was persecuting royal proselytes with Parthian origins who wanted one of their princes to be the prophecy-fulfilling king from the east?
That maybe more plausible than the more esoteric, small sub-sect of Enoch-Son-of-Man believers he could have been persecuting and later converting to.
Steefen
Paul-Josephus persecuted them, then joined them, finally, left them for Rome.
Ralph Ellis
Look for Christianity to come out of Paul’s second tour when he started preaching to the Gentiles.
Vespasian could get Josephus to write a warning to Edessa and Parthia.
Because Josephus knew the Hebrew Bible so well, Vespasian could also get Josephus to write what would end Jews connection to their God.
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
A messiah who disobeys Leviticus 17:10.
And that is why “Paul” [Paul-Josephus] knows the Last Supper ritual word for word.
Ralph Ellis, Author of Jesus, King of Edessa
Herod Antipas vs. King Aretas
Josephus says King Aretas did not like Antipas and when they joined for battle, Antipas’ army were destroyed by fugitives from Syria.
Go and read the Syriac history, Moses of Chorene: King Agbar aligned himself with King Aretas and gave him auxiliary troops [fugitives from Syria] to make war on Herod the Antipas.
One specific reason not to trust Josephus’ account of history: he does not want to mention members of the royal family in Edessa: he does not want to identify King Agbar / Abgarus.
Do not look at this with one eye closed: do not just use the histories of Josephus.
Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy
You say Rome did not want Josephus to mention King Abgarus of Edessa, especially with a military win.
Josephus does mention a defeated Kenedeus of Edessa and a defeated Menhahem, like of Edessa.
So you are saying, for diplomatic reasons, Rome did not want to be too in-your-face at the Parthian Empire.
“We just had this high-effort put-down of the Jewish Revolt, the last thing we need is a war with an empire.”
Ralph Ellis, Author of Jesus, King of Edessa
Paul was promoting Izates/Izas-Jesus not Iesus/Iesous-Jesus.
Remember Izates’ father told people to store your treasurers in heaven.
Pauline Christianity promotes the one who fed thousands of people in need of food, at famine, and that person’s holy mother (Izas and Queen Helena).
Rome needed Paul-Josephus to turn King Izas into a pacifist/peacenik who pays Roman taxes, with revolt the farthest thing from his mind the popular Izas-Jesus of the gospels.
Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy
Who do you think the Greco-Roman gospel authors had to watch out for: Emperor Vespasian or Jewish rebel leaders?
Ralph Ellis, Author of Jesus, King of Edessa
And don’t forget the cover of my book. A king of Edessa, the prophesied leader from the east was a military commander.
Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy
Governor of Galilee, later Herod the Great was a military leader. Caesar Augustus was a military leader, Emperor Vespasian and Emperor Titus were military generals.
p/u at 1.11.16 / 1.33.06
Derek Lambert/MythVision Podcast
How do you reconcile 1) the gospels, 2) this Edessan Monarchy, and 3) the Dead Sea Scroll group (militant Essenes or something like that)?
Ralph Ellis, Author
Josephus calls the Edessan Monarchy the Babylonian Jews [help] beyond the Euphrates.
After Octavian gave these royals in exile from Parthia tax free land, in later years Rome wanted to tax them.
Judah of Gamala/Galilee started a tax dispute in the AD 30s.
Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy
No, Ralph, you are wrong: the Judah of Gamala tax revolt was not in the AD 30s. It was before then, in the first century.
Ralph Ellis, Author
I think Qumran was a yeshiva, a boarding school for even the proselyte Edessan royals.
p/u at 1:15:47
Ralph Ellis, Author of Jesus, King of Edessa (continued)
Yes, the Essenes would be connected to the Edessans with their Nazarite vows.
Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy
Queen Helena who took Nazarite vows twice and gave golden candle sticks to the Temple was also a philanthropist for Essene education and their righteous teachers. Later this philanthropist of Jewish purity and Jewish orthodoxy, Queen Helena, her husband Monobazus (King Abgarus) and her son (Prince Izates) donated money for food when there was a famine.
Ralph Ellis, Author of Jesus, King of Edessa
Saul was an ambassador to Edessa. (Acts 11:28-30)
One of them named Agabus stood up and predicted through the Spirit that a great famine would sweep across the whole world. (This happened under Claudius.)
So the disciples, each according to his ability, decided to send relief to the brothers living in Judea.
This they did, sending their gifts to the elders with Barnabas and Saul.
Who was Agabus? Answer: King Abgarus. (and another name for Edessa is Antioch; there was more than one Antioch in those days)
Saul was an ambassador Edessa/Antioch.
p/u at 1:20.12 / 1:33.06
Robert said
Steefen said
Robert
The overwhelming majority of critical scholars who do believe that Pilate had Jesus crucified do not accept the later gospel accounts of Pilate pronouncing Jesus innocent.
Steefen
Critical scholars take a work of historical fiction and chop this off and that off.
The result is worse than the original.
You think people aspire to critical scholars.
Your critical scholars are not a composite figure of St. Peter letting people into Heaven.
It seems you misunderstand the work of critical scholars. Scholars who specialize in textual hermeneutics do not chop anything off, but rather strive to understand the whole and final text in its own historical context (eg, Mark writing around 70 CE). Some may also speculate about earlier versions of a text or tradition (eg, stories about Jesus that circulated orally before being written down or a written pre-Markan passion narrative or Q source) but that in no way eliminates the necessary task of first understanding the whole or final text in its own historical context. Some historians speculate even further and seek to understand the historical reality that took place prior to any later traditions (eg, a plausible reconstructionofan historical Jesus around 30 CE). This work too does not eliminate the need to understand the whole final text in its own historical context. The interpretation of the actual text in its own historical context can approach a text as a work of pure fiction. That is in no way problematic from a methodological perspective.
Robert, your comment has been read. It seems, you say, you misunderstand the work of critical scholars, but I do not.
Ralph Ellis, Author of Jesus, King of Edessa
I’ve discovered a hidden story that matches the biblical story.
Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy
You’ve discovered one of the composite characters, one of the composite character sets, in the historical fiction, Jesus of the late 20s C.E.
Ralph Ellis, Author of Jesus, King of Edessa
For honest Christians, it messes up their story. It means the founder of their religion was Josephus Flavius–and nobody wants that. Nobody wants their pauper prince turned into a warrior king…
Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy
–or warrior prince before becoming a warrior king.
Ralph Ellis, Author of Jesus, King of Edessa
They were taught the story of a miraculous pauper prince of peace. Now, to find out he always has been a powerful monarch fighting Rome but defeated by Rome is not quite the same story.
Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy
The powerful monarch fighting Rome had a primary reason for dying, and it was not John 3:16. That powerful monarch fighting Rome had a biological father; it was not just the son of God and God team.
Ralph Ellis, Author of Jesus, King of Edessa
As for the Old Testament story, there is a disconnect from history there, also.
p/u at 1.25.32 / 1.33.06
Robert said
Steefen said
Robert, your comment has been read. It seems, you say, you misunderstand the work of critical scholars, but I do not.
Then why would you make such a statement as this:
Critical scholars take a work of historical fiction and chop this off and that off.
No one who actually understood the work of critical scholars would make such a statement.
In your opinion. Thank you for your opinion.
My intention is not to discuss this disagreement with you further.
It certainly is impolite and belligerent to insist on confronting members on issues where the discussions as come to agree-to-disagree.
You will be more successful with your issue if you start a separate thread espousing your thoughts on the work of critical scholars.
Maybe you think success is talking to walls. I do not.
I am grateful for my teachers, undergraduate professors, and post-graduate professors, librarians, also.
Our many disagreements leading to agree-to-disagree may be of value to your stubbornness.
In this instance, I am removing myself from your faulty calculus that you need me to be the wall against you get nowhere.
When you have been useful, I sometimes express my gratitude to you. This is not one of those instances.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
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