
Steefen said
It was ill-mannered for you to do that. I am not taking anything of the sort up with Richard Carrier. And you were wrong to do it. We agree to disagree. End of discussion.
But posts page after page of dribble babble is good manners? (Someone has a very selective sense of manners.)
Robert said
Steefen said
It was ill-mannered. And you were wrong to do it. We agree to disagree. End of discussion.
Why, are the members of this forum not allowed to know what Richard Carrier thinks of the ideas of the authors you follow?
We agree to disagree. End of discussion. Maybe someone else will answer your question and tell you the point is not what Richard Carrier thinks of Caesar’s Messiah but your post was not about that, it was about Carrier’s baseless claim of insanity because he was stumped. When a scholar is stumped, have a fit and commit an ad hominem fallacy. And you’re supporting such a poor illustration of scholarly behavior.
You are wrong, ill-mannered, a gaslighter, stumped. End of discussion.
Robert said
Steefen said
… Maybe someone else will answer your question and tell you the point is not what Richard Carrier thinks of Caesar’s Messiah but your post was not about that, it was about Carrier’s baseless claim of insanity because he was stumped. When a scholar is stumped, have a fit and commit an ad hominem fallacy. And you’re supporting such a poor illustration of scholarly behavior. …
I’m sorry, Steefen, but you’re still missing the point. My post was indeed about what Carrier thinks about Atwill, and I specifically contrasted Carrier’s attitude toward you with our opposite treatment of you. Allow me to refresh your memory of what I actually said:
“… This has always been the weakest part of his theory. As Stephen mentioned above, Richard Carrier at least recognizes the importance of the authentic letters of Paul. Carrier has no respect for the theories of people like Atwill. Carrier considers Steefen insane and no longer allows him to post on his site. We still try to reason with Steefen here.”
Carrier has no respect for the theories of people like Atwill.
I have already said, one cannot present theories with less than excellent writing talent. And I have already said, I was patient with Atwill’s deficiencies as a writer.
I went through each chapter and graded each chapter.
Carrier considers Steefen insane because why, Robert?
You got the Steefen insane part out with no qualifications, no explanation, just appeal to the authority of a scholar. You did not even admit that Carrier was wrong about valid points made by Atwill and valid inquiries made by me. You acted as a rumor mill. Period. Then, the implication was: Steefen is insane (because you did not date when Carrier misbehaved) but here, at ehrmanblog we humor the insane. Baseless. Mean-spirited. You are clearly in the wrong.

Robert said
I did not quote Carrier as an authority. Quite the contrary, I contrasted his attitude toward you with our attitude toward you. Again, whereas he considered you insane and banned you from his site, we here still try to reason with you. If we considered you insane, we would not try to reason with you.
I think that the evidence may be strongly in Richard Carrier’s favor here.
Robert said
I did not quote Carrier as an authority. Quite the contrary, I contrasted his attitude toward you with our attitude toward you. Again, whereas he considered you insane and banned you from his site, we here still try to reason with you. If we considered you insane, we would not try to reason with you.
There is no “try to reason with me.” My reading comprehension, communication, and argumentation skills are excellent.
= = =
Chrestians committed abominations. They were known and hated for their abominations.
[What abominations: superstitions and evil; Paul exploiting the pious; as explained by Josephus, an analogy of Jesus who pretends to be son of a god just to sexually exploit a pious woman and an analogy of Paul who exploit a pious woman for her money for purple and gold.]
Christ suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of Pontius Pilate
then, for a moment, this most mischievous superstition was checked.
That superstition broke out again not only in Judea, the source of this evil, but even in Rome.
Robert, you are THAT desperate for evidence external to the New Testament to put that forward to reason with me?
That is unreasonable.
You have to get past:
This most mischievous superstition is: “Christ suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of Pontius Pilate.”
The evil is: the most mischievous superstition.
The text does not read: suffered the death penalty at the hands of Pilate but then there was this mischievous superstition that he resurrected.
And of course, while you have read evidence for Pilate’s execution of Jesus and Paul’s persecution, the above passage does not speak of Paul and persecution. You have no Tacitus passage on that!
Steefen
The point was to revisit the evidence of Tacitus about Jesus.
Tacitus was born after the fiction of Jesus being given the death penalty by Pontius Pilate.
Tacitus brings forth no civic record and no contemporary account of Pilate’s death penalty sentencing of Jesus.
Tacitus does put forth the hearsay of a Jesus given the death penalty. That hearsay is only a mischievous superstition
not evidence for the crucifixion of Jesus and not evidence for the existence of Jesus.
This most mischievous superstition is: “Christ suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of Pontius Pilate.”
The evil is: the most mischievous superstition.
The text does not read: suffered the death penalty at the hands of Pilate but then there was this mischievous superstition that he resurrected.
Josephus also questions the existence of Jesus on legal grounds. It is not accurate that Jesus met the legal definition of a man: “Now there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man.” It is not lawful to call a composite character of historical fiction, non-contemporary fiction but a fiction written at minimum, 40 years later–it is not lawful to call a fictional character a male citizen.
“Now there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man” obviously, does not contain questionable Christian terminology.
bizarre:
very strange or unusual, especially so as to cause interest or amusement.
You have yet to provide a less allegedly bizarre comprehension of
Antiquities, Book 18, Chapter 3
The Testimonium Flavianum Passage #1
The Decius Mundus and Paulina Passage #2, and
The Wicked Man Who Left His Own Country for Rome Passage and Fulvia Passage #3
Second, a critical teacher and student of History today, needs to know what the name Decius meant to Romans of Josephus’ day. For Josephus and his readers to know the name Decius from Roman military history is not strange or unusual.
To ask the question, why did Josephus change Decius Mus to Decius Mundus means what?
There is nothing strange or unusual about that.
There is nothing very strange or unusual for seeing the Paulina Passage for what it was: a story about sexually exploiting a pious person.
Jesus (Passage 1) is a son of a god who wants to have sex with a pious woman (a divine being wants to have sex with Mary, full of grace); this son of god is actually a man who sacrificed his life, his son by the same name, also sacrificed his life (Passage 2) [Jesus died but before he did, he launched a deadly theological virus that would make God turn away separating God from people [Leviticus 17: 10-11] Messiah, Messiah’s God, and Messiah’s Temple destroyed. Paul left his own country for Rome and promoted an apocalyptic religious movement [Apocalypticism is a failed hypothesis; therefore, Paul was a charlatan] (Passage 3).
Between Passage 1 and Passage 2, Josephus says Passage 1 was a sad calamity and Passage 2 was another sad calamity.
Let’s see if Robert, Stephen, JAS or anyone else, even Bart D.E. can improve this line of reasoning.
SAT Writing and Language Test
Writing Strategy will be a more difficult section to practice. It requires you to understand more abstract ideas like how the topic of a passage is best expressed through organization or structure. Understanding the distinctive features that make the organization effective, or the reasoning behind those features, is much more complicated than just memorizing a set of rules.
Even though Writing Strategy might push you further, there are still strategies that you can practice to ensure you maximize your point totals. Sometimes it doesn’t matter so much that you know the right answer on the test, as long as you can determine the wrong answers. We will keep that in mind as we talk about the structure of the test.
Robert said
We already discussed this Steefen in this very thread. You did not want to tell me further details of your allegorical reading and I do not see Josephus as using allegory. As for it being strange, suffice it to say that it is not at all the common way in which these passages of Josephus is read by scholars. But even if you do not value the work of scholars, you should acknowledge that this is not the usual way scholars read Josephus.
We mentioned this already in the very thread but you are still considering it a bizarre reading comprehension.
Modern critical scholars must accept that when Josephus decided to use the name Decius, it was for an important reason.
But even if I do not value the work of scholars…
Failed hypothesis. And everyone knows it. You are not fooling anyone, Robert. The bibliography of my book is public knowledge. Scholars are valued in my work. Loeb Classical Library was thoroughly consulted. And, any critical scholar that you supposed to be championing would know Decius Mus from the Loeb Classical Library if they were to attempt to footnote Decius in Passage 2.
It is very apparent you are wrong.
Robert said
Steefen, do you not realize that you disagree with academic Josephus scholars in your interpretation of this passage?
Share with us what scholars have written about:
The Decius Mundus and Paulina Passage #2, and
The Wicked Man Who Left His Own Country for Rome and Fulvia Passage #3.
Then we can talk about your alleged disagreement with academic Josephus scholars, not in an interpretation of the two passages but what is found in the two passages and how they related to the TF.
When a historian writes a chapter and organizes paragraphs, readers understand the author’s craftsmanship. So, when you share with us what scholars have written about Passage #2, be sure, your scholars will be judged worthy or not based on whether or not they consulted Livy’s History of Rome for the Decius historical references to sacrifice. That will be some shoddy academic scholarship without doing so.
So, when you share with us what scholars have written about Passage #2, be sure, your scholars will be judged worthy or not based on whether or not they consulted Livy’s History of Rome for the Decius historical references to sacrifice. That will be some shoddy academic scholarship without doing so.
Robert is unable to provide the information requested. His attempt to deflect to Passage #1 is rejected.
He can say whatever he wants but only information requested contributed is not a waste of time.
The person in Passage #1 is unquestionable. Rehashing Passage #1 is a waste of time.
The discussion is not the existence of Jesus depends on whether or not Josephus posits the possibility Jesus cannot legally be called a man because of his wisdom not because of Jesus’s deeds. That is the next sentence. I did not leave anything out of the first sentence.
If you want to use your own, non-published, translation and speculation such that the first and second sentence is combined or whatever minutiae point you are trying to make with your own translation and conjecture, give two examples of publishers that agree with your translation. Does Louis Feldman agree with your translation? Does Loeb Classical Library agree with your translation? Does Steve Mason agree with your translation where his translation of the TF appears in Josephus and The New Testament or does Louis Feldman use the same translation and conjecture that a Christian scribe did something?
= = =
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Christ. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.
Flavius Josephus: Antiquities of the Jews, ** you do not have permission to see this link **
= = =
A priority, not minutiae, in this discussion is about Christians thinking Jesus died for the world and Josephus nodding to this.
Jesus died, a life sacrificed, for the world.
Decius Mus died, a life sacrificed, for his soldiers.
Josephus changed Decius Mus to Decius Mundus.
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus is a Latin phrase, meaning “Let justice be done, though the world perish”.
Noun
mundus (genitive mundī) (masc.)
- toilet ornaments, decorations, dress (of a woman)
- implement
- (= κόσμος) the universe, the world, esp. the heavens and the heavenly bodies
- the inhabitants of the earth, mankind
- (eccl. Lat.) the world as opposed to the church; this world, the realm of sin and death, as opposed to Christ’s kingdom of holiness and life
Decius Mundus in Passage 2 is Josephus saying the character has been elevated from having his life sacrificed for his soldiers to a life sacrificed for the world.
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