It is the old Erich von Däniken approach — propose an outrageous hypothesis and claim that all current scholars are hacks who are in on the conspiracy to continue current “errors,” thereby becoming the only reliable expert. (It has actually worked pretty well for von Däniken, at least financially.)
Robert
The overwhelming majority of critical scholars who do believe that Pilate had Jesus crucified do not accept the later gospel accounts of Pilate pronouncing Jesus innocent.
Steefen
Critical scholars take a work of historical fiction and chop this off and that off.
The result is worse than the original.
You think people aspire to critical scholars.
Your critical scholars are not a composite figure of St. Peter letting people into Heaven.
Robert said
Steefen said
Conclusion:
The Lukan and Pauline accounts of persecution are insufficiently sensical for my standards.
If critical scholars have a vested interest in the New Testament, let them turn a blind eye.
Other people have their own higher prioritized investments.
You disparage critical scholars and claim more ‘sensical’ standards yet you have not even acquired the most basic skills and training to enter into the preliminary stages of scholarly discourse. Sorry, Steefen, but how can you expect anyone to take you seriously? Why disparage scholars? What is it about scholarship that you oppose?
I use the works of scholars judiciously. Scholars appear in my extensive bibliography. That is why people take me seriously.
The case is closed. You had an opportunity to present information to support Paul’s claim. It was not persuasive.
Paul’s character suffers in the New Testament.
The first-century historian Josephus confirms the bad character of Paul when he speaks of a Paul figure (if not Paul himself) who exploits those who would believe a man portrayed as Son of God (Anubis, son of the Egyptian god, Osiris), sacrificed himself for the world (Decius Mundus); [Paul] a figure who went to Rome because he needed to escape punishment in Judea; there, he and three men of same character exploited religious people.
A person of that character is someone your “critical” opinion tells you to trust. And you expect anyone to take you seriously? You are in error.
Dr. James D. Tabor, author of Paul and Jesus: How the Apostle Transformed Christianity
The Mysticism of Paul, the Apostle by Albert Schweitzer is worthy of mentioning.
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
Dr. Tabor, I see your book has 337 amazon ratings averaging 4.5 stars.
From the book’s description, I quote:
Historians know almost nothing about the two decades following the crucifixion of Jesus, when his followers regrouped and began to spread his message. During this time Paul joined the movement and began to preach to the gentiles. Using the oldest Christian documents that we have—the letters of Paul—as well as other early Christian sources, historian and scholar James Tabor reconstructs the origins of Christianity. Tabor shows how Paul separated himself from Peter and James to introduce his own version of Christianity, which would continue to develop independently of the message that Jesus, James, and Peter preached.
Paul and Jesus illuminates the fascinating period of history when Christianity was born out of Judaism.
= = =
Now, let’s look at the book you mentioned by looking at a top amazon review.
zrose (10/1/2020)
I tried reading the first chapter and the last to get an idea where the book was going–I highly recommend this approach. The chapters in between develop the ideas presented.
One idea is that the important thing is reaching the Kingdom of Heaven, which is a spiritual state of faith involving freedom from constraints of doctrine (the law), the bondage of the will do wrong instead of right (sin), and death (or the fear of death). To do this requires a constant dying and resurrection in Christ–following His example. The author indicates that living in this way removes the problem that the apocalypse never happened, and allows Christianity to constantly renew itself in any age or culture. (Of course this freedom from doctrine did not make Paul acceptable to the Church deciding on the Canon, so certain letters [Ephesians, Colossians, 2 Thessalonians, 1-2 Timothy, and Titus] and certain passages were added to bring him into conformity with the hierarchy–something most of his letters opposed.)
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
The reviewer is saying the following.
The Kingdom of Heaven is a spiritual state of faith involving
1) freedom from constraints of the Law
2) freedom from the bondage of the will to do wrong instead of right / freedom from the bondage of the will to sin
3) freedom from the bondage of the fear of death and the bondage of death
To reach this heaven requires
a constant dying and resurrection in Christ.
Albert Schweitzer indicates that living in this way removes the problem that the apocalypse never happened.
And I say, that leads to the conclusion that apocalypticism is a failed hypothesis and that Jesus is a false prophet.
Removing the integrity problem (supported by Deut. chapter 18),
Dr. Tabor
Paul questions, what is wrong with the cosmos and the mortal body of humans that the good you would do, you do not and the evil you would not, you do (Romans 8).
Paul has been Lutheran-ized and Catholocized and made orthodox.
Satan is the god of the world. Galatians 4: 4
Steve Campbell, Historical Accuracy
You are in error. See 2nd Corinthians 4: 4.
Dr. M. David Litwa, author of
The Evil Creator: Origins of an Early Christian Idea
Iesus Deus: The Early Christian Depiction of Jesus as a Mediterranean God
Found Christianities: Remaking the World of the Second Century CE
Understand the politics of Pauline interpretation.
Pauline interpretation by orthodoxy protects Paul from being a Greco-Roman thinker.
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
The book The Gospel of God: Romans as Paul’s Aeneid by David R. Wallace, Ph.D. would show Paul modeling Greco-Roman thought.
p/u at 14:23 / 1:37.31
Steefen, I’m sorry to be the bearer of bad news and I do not want to upset you, but people do not really take you seriously. Nor do you have the ability to declare a case closed. You have no such authority. Sorry.
Unless of course Steefen is the new Son of Man and judge of the living and the dead in which case we better be nice to him.
“Unless of course Steefen is the new Son of Man and judge of the living and the dead in which case we better be nice to him.”
There is remarkable kindness and patience here and I’ve been the recipient many times. However, at times when sarcasm slips through, those who want
The Forum to continue to be for us all jump in to try to keep it as Professor Ehrman would want. We know we might catch it, too, but it’s worth it, I think.
Judith said
“Unless of course Steefen is the new Son of Man and judge of the living and the dead in which case we better be nice to him.”There is remarkable kindness and patience here and I’ve been the recipient many times. However, at times when sarcasm slips through, those who want
The Forum to continue to be for us all jump in to try to keep it as Professor Ehrman would want. We know we might catch it, too, but it’s worth it, I think.
Judith I take your point but I’m not sure my comment rises (or descends I suppose) to the level of sarcasm. More good natured, poking fun. I actually enjoy Steefen’s posts and someone with his ideas must of necessity come equipped with a thick skin.
Doc. Pleroma-naut (donating $20 to Mythvision) has this question:
Paul echoes Jewish apocalpticism in 1 Cor. 2: 6 through 13,
namely the revelation given to Enoch by the angel Uriel.
Could he also be drawing from Hekhalot treatises for these wisdom and cosmology traditions?
Dr. James Tabor
It’s not about How One Gets Saved by the Blood of Christ the way Christians today would define Paul’s teaching.
That’s so far from Paul.
Paul wants to see the cosmos saved. (Romans 8): the physical creation is groaning in travail until its birthed into what it supposed to be. It’s like an embryo. Then he talks about individuals that follow Christ will become the first born of this new family of cosmic beings.
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
As a professional astrologer who has spent some time with mundane astrology, the astrology of world events, the cosmology of world events, for which Paul is reaching, Christ would have to rearrange our solar system to change the groaning of existence. Problems that are associated with Pluto, Uranus, Mars, even Saturn, even Jupiter, even Mercury with its retrogrades are not going away. Paul’s musings are fallacious.
Dr. James Tabor
I’m referencing E.P. Sanders’ Paul and Palestinian Judaism and Krister Stendhal’s Paul and the Introspective Conscience of the West.
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
I want to jump in here and provide some information and will continue in the next post.
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Dr. James Tabor
1 Corinthians Chapter 5: Paul says, when you are assembled together in the name of the Lord Jesus and his spirit is present and my spirit is present.
Is Paul really on equal standing with Jesus with this ability to be present in an assembly of believers? Jesus and Paul protect congregants?
Dr. Litwa
The Hekhalot are several hundred years beyond Paul.
1 Enoch is a model for Jesus’ ascent to heaven and Paul’s ascent to heaven.
The mysticism of Enoch informs the mysticism of Paul.
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
Okay, I can expand my position that the gospel authors put Enoch, Son of Man, into the composition of the fictional character Jesus of the late 20s CE.
The expansion would be that Enoch also informs the mysticism of Paul.
p/u at 28:01 / 1: 37 . 31
Steefen said
Doc. Pleroma-naut (donating $20 to Mythvision) has this question:Paul echoes Jewish apocalpticism in 1 Cor. 2: 6 through 13,
namely the revelation given to Enoch by the angel Uriel.
Could he also be drawing from Hekhalot treatises for these wisdom and cosmology traditions?
Dr. James Tabor
It’s not about How One Gets Saved by the Blood of Christ the way Christians today would define Paul’s teaching.
That’s so far from Paul.
Paul wants to see the cosmos saved. (Romans 8): the physical creation is groaning in travail until its birthed into what it supposed to be. It’s like an embryo. Then he talks about individuals that follow Christ will become the first born of this new family of cosmic beings.
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
As a professional astrologer who has spent some time with mundane astrology, the astrology of world events, the cosmology of world events, for which Paul is reaching, Christ would have to rearrange our solar system to change the groaning of existence. Problems that are associated with Pluto, Uranus, Mars, even Saturn, even Jupiter, even Mercury with its retrogrades are not going away. Paul’s musings are fallacious.
Let’s not forget 1 Thess. 4: 16-17 The resurrection of the dead bodies hand-in-hand with those who have not yet died rising from the ground to mid air to meet Christ.
This serves as an example of character witness testimony, Paul’s own words (1 Thessalonians is one of the authentic letters of Paul).
The court is supposed to accept the insubstantial claim that “Saul persecuted” from Luke who embellishes and cannot get historical characters in chronological order [mixing up the chronology of Judah the Galilean…] and from Paul of very questionable character–and what is not questionable is that he exploits the pious.
Steefen, Argumentation Specialist
Paul, known as Saul in his Jewish context, likely persecuted outside of Judea and Galilee, but there is a possibility that he did persecute inside Judea and Galilee.
If Saul persecuted outside of Judea and Galilee, persecuting the Church of God where “church” is a Hellenistic term, he would have not been in his Jewish context; therefore, “Paul persecuted” not “Saul persecuted” should be used, if we are going with the assertion Saul’s name was not changed to Paul after his conversion.
= = =
Five or Seven Authentic Letters of Paul
Yes, this has come up again when doing a google search on “authentic letters of paul” and this time I am copying the Wikipedia text that shows this:
Five or Seven Authentic Letters of Paul
Yes, this has come up again when doing a google search on “authentic letters of paul” and this time I am copying the Wikipedia text that shows this:
At least one of these authors spoke at a Friday-Saturday Jesus Seminar workshop at a UMC church in Fort Worth, TX, years ago, but less than 15 years ago.
Must have been a temporary edit (yours?) that was later rejected because there was no supporting reference.
I did not edit the article.
Anyone can edit Wikipedia entries.
The google result before clicking the link to the wikipedia article still reads:
This is only about one brief likely interpolation. That in no way invalidates the consesus view that 1 Corinthians is an authentic letter of Paul.
Let’s see here:
Google Result Text of an earlier version of a Wikipedia entry: 1 and 2 Corinithians are considered inauthentic due to several interpolations between the two.
Robert: There is one brief likely interpolation in 1 Corinthians.
Conclusion: that does not address whether there was an interpolation (or a brief likely interpolation) in 2 Corinthians.
Second, you do not have the scrutiny to distinguish between a well-established fact and an unsubstantiated claim by a faulty writer/s, author/s of Luke/Acts and Paul who is untrustworthy and exploits the pious.
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