Robert said
Steefen said
Bart D.E. (continued from “Paul as a Persecutor of the Church”)
Paul gives no indication that the church that he was persecuting was located in Judea. in fact, several verses later, he indicates that the Christian churches “in Judea” did not know what he even looked like (Galatians 1:22)
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
Bart Ehrman, Ph.D. is doing exactly what I did in this discussion: go beyond the claim I persecuted followers of Jesus.
Robert and JAS, you are directed to bring up your criticisms to Dr. Ehrman.
Robert, for doing the same thing I was doing, see how this comment of yours is accepted by him:
Sure, it makes for a good Elmer Gantry book by Sinclair Lewis or an even better movie with Burt Lancaster, but it is not an argument for why a lie is historically more probable than the truth of Paul’s claim. That’s what is required for an argument about history.
Steefen, what in the world are you talking about? I did not criticize Bart’s position on Paul’s claim to have persecuted the church. Nor do I understand why you think you and I did the same thing in this thread.
You criticized my position of going beyond Paul’s claim, “I persecuted.” My position was to look for more substance. That is exactly what Bart has done. Bart answered the question, where did the persecution take place.
Anyone who goes beyond the claim “I persecuted” gets your reply of
Sure, it makes for a good Elmer Gantry book by Sinclair Lewis or an even better movie with Burt Lancaster, but it is not an argument for why a lie is historically more probable than the truth of Paul’s claim. That’s what is required for an argument about history.
and I say, it takes Bart to go beyond the claim “I persecuted” for you to say, never mind, it does serve a purpose to explore more than “I persecuted.”
Robert said
Steefen said
I was personally unknown, however, to the churches of Judea that are in Christ.…
Galatians 1: 21
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
I found some answers that neither Robert, JAS, nor Stephen nor anyone else put forward in this discussion.
I asked what did Paul do? What was the nature of his persecution in Judea after the death of Stephen?
Acts 8:3 says he went from house to house, dragged off men and women and put them in prison.
This is the advantage of following the discussion as opposed to straying off topic.
And I already told you that it is a common opinion that Luke probably invented details and exaggerated Paul’s persecution.
This is about me as an author looking for details of persecution.
This is about Bart as an author looking for details of persecution.
This is about you and JAS putting down efforts to find plausibility in the claim, “I persecuted.”
“Probably 1) invented details and 2) exaggerated Paul’s persecution” did not advance the discussion–did not edify us all–in a respectful manner to
See: Acts 8: 3 (provided by me).
See Galatians 1: 21 (provided by Bart).
So, the resolution: “Paul did not persecute [added detail: by dragging people out of their homes and putting them in prison]” is now “Paul did not persecute in Judea the followers of Jesus.”
Furthermore, Luke does not change the location of the persecutions. 1) Stephen in Judea to 2) the same day, a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, to 3) Saul began destroying the church by going from house to house. See Acts 8: 1-3. Luke did not write Saul left the killing of Stephen; Saul left Judea and persecuted outside of Judea.
Galatians 1: 13 You have heard about my life in Judaism, how severely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it.
[I did not try to destroy it at its source, in Jerusalem or Galilee.]
Philippians 3: 6 persecuting the church
[I did not initially try to destroy the church in Jerusalem or Galilee.]
1 Corinthians 15: 9
[I persecuted the church of God, but not in Jerusalem or Galilee.]
Jesus did not ask, “Saul, why are you persecuting me outside of Judea and Galilee?”
My initial question, my initial doubt was that there was evidence of persecution.
That doubt is substantiated. According to the epistles of Paul, Paul certainly did not persecute in Judea or Galilee.
Robert said
Robert said
I asked what did Paul do? What was the nature of his persecution in Judea after the death of Stephen?
Actually you never asked this specific question about Judea. You’re misrepresenting the course of the discussion. I tried to focus your attention on Paul’s letters and not on the account in Acts.
Actually, nothing Robert. I am not misrepresenting anything. Bart brought up the point about the Pauline’s letter including the denial that Saul would be known in Judea by his appearance. That expanded my case against the historicity of Saul’s persecution.
The problem is not just with Luke. The problem is also with the persecution claim in Paul’s letters.
In Acts, the persecution was dragging people out of their homes and putting them in jail.
What authority did Paul have outside of Judea and Galilee to drag people out of their homes and put them in jail?
Religious authority probably existed in the diaspora. However, I would say any community of Jesus followers outside of Judea and Galilee primarily would have sprung up where Jesus or his disciples went.
If I recall correctly Jesus did cross the Sea of Galilee into the Tetrarchy of Philip, Golan, Gaulanitis, maybe.
= = =
If a person is going to drag someone out of their home and bring them to a precinct’s prison. Those who were dragged would know Saul’s appearance.
The “precinct chief” would know Saul’s appearance.
Saul with the help of how many others broke into homes and dragged people to prison and made a case to the “police” to lock them up?
= = =
So, Temple authorities gave Saul the ministry of capturing Christ followers outside of Judea and Galilee and
his vision of Jesus gave him the ministry of capturing Gentiles outside of Judea and Galilee.
= = =
Paul said he was not identifiable in Judea, but Judean authorities could identify him if they are giving him authority to round up people.
Again, the problem is not just Luke, the problem is Paul’s persecution claim in his letters, too.
Pointing a person from Luke to Paul’s letters does not advance credibility of the claim, “I persecuted.”
Robert said
Steefen said
Bart brought up the point about the Pauline’s letter including the denial that Saul would be known in Judea by his appearance. That expanded my case against the historicity of Saul’s persecution.
You believe it helps your case, but it actually illustrates well how additional details do not necessarily bolster a claim, contrary to your own previous assumption. Note that Bart also does not agree with claim. But you will go on believing whatever you want.
Conflicting testimonies is a reason to toss a case.
Robert said
Steefen said
Pointing a person from Luke to Paul’s letters does not advance credibility of the claim, “I persecuted.”
It should help you to focus on the actual claim made by Paul rather than Luke:s additions and embelishment of the claim.
The actual claim is the same, “I persecuted.”
What is Luke’s embellishment, Robert?
So, Paul was not persecuting in Judea or Galilee.
Do you have scholars on record saying that Paul was not persecuting in Judea and saying persecution in Judea was Luke’s embellishment?
Do you have scholars on record saying Luke’s narrative runs into the problem of Paul saying [Gal. 1:21], at the time of persecutions, Paul was unknown by the Jerusalem “Church”?
Third question: any Jesus community outside of Judea and Galilee claiming Jesus was the Way is using John 14: 6? What else could they be using?
Steefen said
So, Paul was not persecuting in Judea or Galilee.Do you have scholars on record saying that Paul was not persecuting in Judea and saying persecution in Judea was Luke’s embellishment?
Do you have scholars on record saying Luke’s narrative runs into the problem of Paul saying [Gal. 1:21], at the time of persecutions, Paul was unknown by the Jerusalem “Church”?
Robert
Isn’t that essentially what Bart said to you?
Steefen
I want more. I want at least two scholarly articles and at least two scholarly book/s concluding Paul was not persecuting in Judea.
Steefen said
Steefen said
Bart D.E.
Modern people and some scholars claim that it was Paul himself who started Christianity. I think that is going too far, in fact maybe way too far, for reasons that will become apparent in this post and the next.
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
Josephus wrote three passages in Antiquities that easily delineate 1) Christological tenets 2) exploiting those who would believe a man portrayed as Son of God (Anubis, son of the Egyptian God, Osiris, who ushers souls into the afterlife) sacrificed himself for the world (Decius Mundus) and 3) a Paul figure who was a Jew, driven away from his country because of accusations of transgressing Law. This Paul figure went to Rome and instructed men in the wisdom of the Laws of Moses–perhaps the New Moses, Jesus [Dale Alison has written a book on the subject, The New Moses.] The Paul figure and three men of same character exploited pious people to send purple and gold to the Temple at Jerusalem. Paul in the New Testament sent money to Jerusalem for a community of Jesus followers. Josephus explains in Antiquities that the purple and gold was employed for the four men’s own uses.
Christological tenets as exploitation?
= = =
The above comment of less than 200 words, posted to Bart’s May30th, 2016 post: Paul as a Persecutor of the Church
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Bart D.E.
Not sure what you are referring to with any of these three points. Dale Allison’s book is about the Gospel of Matthew.
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
Bart D.E.
I’m not sure what you’re asking. Are you asking who actually fulfilled the prophecy of Deuteronony 18? I’m not sure who the author had in mind any one person; possibly he is simply referring to future prophets.
Steefen
Given:
The New Moses: A Matthean Typology by Dale Allison
We agree Dale Allison’s book is about 1) The New Moses and 2) the gospel of Matthew.
Dale writes about three times the Moses story is mirrored by the author of Matthew writing about Jesus:
a) Pharaoh slaughtered infants because of Moses / Herod the Great slaughtered infants because of Jesus.
b) Before the midwives came at the birth of Moses Ex 1:19 / before they came together she was found to be with child Mt 1:18
c) Allison analyzes the ten miracles of Matthew chapters 8 and 9 as a link to the ten plagues of exodus
Part II of Dale’s book: “The New Moses in Matthew”
Appendix IV: The New Moses and the Son of God
p. 6 of the book’s introduction: [The gospel of Matthew is a new whole made out of old pieces.]
Made out of the Old Moses is the New Moses, the Jesus in the gospel of Matthew. There was an old Passover and covenant with Moses and a new Passover and covenant with Jesus.
QUESTIONS:
Jesus represented a new covenant for Paul, yes?
It is not uncommon in scholarly literature (not only with Dale) to see comparisons between Moses and Jesus, yes?
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
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Point 1 Antiquities Book 18, Chapter 3, Section 3 by Josephus
The Testimonium Flavianum in full or in part, removing whatever is an interpolation, gives us Christological tenets: Pilate, cross, appearance of Jesus after crucifixion on the third day, etc.
Point 2 comes from the passage immediately following Section 3: Section 4.
Point 3 comes from the passage immediately following Point 2.
These points were written in Antiquities of the Jews by a Jewish Historian. Points 2 and Points 3 have not been determined to be interpolations by scholars.
Dale Alison’s book, The New Moses, is about the Gospel of Matthew using Mosaic typology. The new Moses is Jesus as Dale explains:
a) Pharaoh slaughtered infants because of Moses / Herod the Great slaughtered infants because of Jesus.
b) Before the midwives came at the birth of Moses ** you do not have permission to see this link **
c) Allison analyzes the ten miracles of Matthew chapters 8 and 9 as a link to the ten plagues of exodus
Other than Ezekiel and Jeremiah (gospel of Matthew is more about Jesus than those two), who do you think the New Moses is other than Jesus since the gospel of Matthew is about Jesus?